Request to (re)evaluate all motorcycle's roll & lean angles

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Hey guys,

Would like to place a suggestion for all the motorcycles' roll angles and lean angles to be evaluated and improved, so it looks and feels closer like real.

At the moment when turning, the Yaiba Kusanagi CT-3X, and the Arch in particular, will not roll angle at all at low speeds, staying perfectly straight up, ruining the motorcycling driving experience. This has always withheld me from driving them, as they never felt right. It's the rolling of the bike that's the entertaining factor, for me at least. If it's inaccurate like with these bikes, they'll not be able to fool my mind, thinking I'm riding a bike, and actually wake me up out of the story. Which is exactly what they do.

That's the reason I avoided them, despite they being awesome bikes.

As I've now come to a point where I really would love to drive these bikes a little bit more, decided to ask this of you. Have driven the Brennan Apollo lots a times before, as that bike roll angles a lot more accurately, and doesn't wake me up from the story as much. As you made the Apollo roll angle like that, am pretty sure you can do that for both the Yaiba Kusanagi CT-3X and the Arch as well.

Consider to watch the video below, as you can understand exactly what I actually mean.


Below are vids where you can observe how actual bikes really roll angle with different speeds. the more accurate the rolls, the more like real it looks and feels.


Edit: Here's a nice diagram of the average motorcycle's lean angle.

0341d51240c6ca7a50176f5acc0e425d.jpg
 
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I agree. I have been a passenger on my friend's several bikes. The Yaiba is pretty satisfying when accelerating before and on a curves but is really weird when turning at low speed.
 
This looks like really good idea.

What do you think about turning radius on bikes?
Very good. You can make a 180 degree turn within a few meters. Can do that too in the game but the bike will be side-slipping, as it is made to turn at sufficient speeds.

You can see how it's done in the French video. The driver uses his hips to roll the bike, while he himself leans the other way. You have to use your back brake to stabilize yourself during the turn.

Mighty impressive the way he does it.
 
It's definitly not perfect and need some improvments :)
But I'll be also the devil's advocate here.
With my "short" experience with bikes, on the video (in french^^) it's a rather "manoeuvrable motorcycle". I was largely able to do the same (quite "easily") with my SV650 (Suzuki) or Monster 821 (Ducati), but it was almost impossible (or at least, at the risk of putting it on its side and having to replace the fairing for 3K euros) with my 916 Biposto (Ducati) or ZX-12R (Kawazaki).
For example, it seems difficult to do the same kind of things with these bikes which are not intended to be "maneuverable" and maneuver at low speed (due to fork's angle, tires profil (very large and rather flat), the weight, the engine,...).
Panigale_V4.jpgARCH_method.jpg

And with the Kusanagi in particular, in view of the fork angle (almost horizontal), the tires profil (very large and also almost flat), the length between the front wheel and the rear wheel (supernaturally high), it seem impossible to physically do the same thing as the video :)
YaibaKasunagi-CT-3X.png
 
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It's definitly not perfect and need some improvments :)
But I'll be also the devil's advocate here.
With my "short" experience with bikes, on the video (in french^^) it's a rather "manoeuvrable motorcycle". I was largely able to do the same (quite "easily") with my SV650 (Suzuki) or Monster 821 (Ducati), but it was almost impossible (or at least, at the risk of putting it on its side and having to replace the fairing for 3K euros) with my 916 Biposto (Ducati) or ZX-12R (Kawazaki).
For example, it seems difficult to do the same kind of things with these bikes which are not intended to be "maneuverable" and maneuver at low speed (due to fork's angle, tires profil (very large and rather flat), the weight, the engine,...).
View attachment 11265001View attachment 11264998

And with the Kusanagi in particular, in view of the fork angle (almost horizontal), the tires profil (very large and also almost flat), the length between the front wheel and the rear wheel (supernaturally high), it seem impossible to physically do the same thing as the video :)
View attachment 11265004
You have a point of course, but it's all about the motorcycle driving experience. It's needed that the bikes roll angle accordingly, because our brain is used to see 2 wheeled vehicles roll angling when turning with sufficient speed.

Bikes like the Yaiba and Arch can't in the least drive on loose desert sand, much less in a swamp. Yet in this game they can, because the devs apparently want it so. it's because our brain has seen some bikes drive on loose sand and swamps, that it somewhat, "accepts", that you can drive with these bikes through loose desert sand and swamps.

But it has never ever seen a bike on 2 wheels that's going 30mph or more, making a soft or sharper turn without making the least degree of a roll angle, like these bikes do. So it's wholly NOT accepted, because it's not natural, and therefor wakes you up.

When you drive on the highway on your bike, when taking the softest of a (very long) turn, your bike will roll angle, whether you want it or not. These bikes in this game don't do that. Because they don't do that, it wakes you up, because your brain doesn't accept that.

That's what I am trying to convey to the devs. it's all about the "driving a bike" experience.
 
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At "low" speed, they don't, I agree :)
But at high speed (more than 60-80 mph for said a random number), they do. Lot of fun on my side (with controller on Serie X) with all the bikes for this reason. I manage very well to roll * the turns (I do not know if that is said in English), especially with the Kusanagi (but I'm quite sure it's almost impossible with a keyboard...)
(I don't have a "good" net connection, so impossible to upload a decent video...)
But I definitly agree, it could be improved for sure ;)

Find a video (I think he's a little bit "too violent" with the stick and the brakes...)
 
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At "low" speed, they don't, I agree :)
But at high speed (more than 60-80 mph for said a random number), they do. Lot of fun on my side (with controller on Serie X) with all the bikes for this reason. I manage very well to roll * the turns (I do not know if that is said in English), especially with the Kusanagi (but I'm quite sure it's almost impossible with a keyboard...)
(I don't have a "good" net connection, so impossible to upload a decent video...)
But I definitly agree, it could be improved for sure ;)

Find a video (I think he's a little bit "too violent" with the stick and the brakes...)
He ticks left and right. looks like he's using a mouse and key. His Yaiba indeed roll angles accordingly. I'll try and find the corresponding mods of my bikes, take em all off, and try roll angling them again. Get back to you.
 
A good test could be to turn around the North Oak roundabout at regular speed (about 80-90 mph), without leaving a tire mark, without braking and only by adjusting "slightly" the throttle.
I'm not gonna lie, I launched the game only for testing and I went around the whole city. I love this bike too much (way better in first person) :D
In the absence of video, some screenshots
c6f6c8b7-97a5-4b31-91d7-78737d2bcc42.PNG

08451cc6-70ad-4f37-aa1f-75ee4529a227.PNG0d73acd3-9c63-4b30-8030-6158945db6d5.PNG8aa91ea9-3605-4894-bafd-012817ceff58.PNG31bad2c8-0534-47ce-b373-6d83eea4db60.PNG
The faults that bothers me a little bit (but it's "details") are that :
  • Normally from a certain speed on a bikes, to turn in one direction you "turn" the handlebars in the oposite way (to go to left, you turn the handlebars to the right).
  • The rear brake seem to be way too powerful. Normally it's almost insignifant (for braking). Only useful for help to turn.
But hey, that's still a details.
 
  • Normally from a certain speed on a bikes, to turn in one direction you "turn" the handlebars in the oposite way (to go to left, you turn the handlebars to the right).
  • The rear brake seem to be way too powerful. Normally it's almost insignifant (for braking). Only useful for help to turn.
These 2 points exactly!

That is why a (re)evaluation of all the bikes' roll angle is needed.
Edit: Here's a nice vid about Countersteering.


2nd edit: Another interesting vid about cornering.

 
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It's definitly not perfect and need some improvments :)
But I'll be also the devil's advocate here.
With my "short" experience with bikes, on the video (in french^^) it's a rather "manoeuvrable motorcycle". I was largely able to do the same (quite "easily") with my SV650 (Suzuki) or Monster 821 (Ducati), but it was almost impossible (or at least, at the risk of putting it on its side and having to replace the fairing for 3K euros) with my 916 Biposto (Ducati) or ZX-12R (Kawazaki).
For example, it seems difficult to do the same kind of things with these bikes which are not intended to be "maneuverable" and maneuver at low speed (due to fork's angle, tires profil (very large and rather flat), the weight, the engine,...).
View attachment 11265001View attachment 11264998

And with the Kusanagi in particular, in view of the fork angle (almost horizontal), the tires profil (very large and also almost flat), the length between the front wheel and the rear wheel (supernaturally high), it seem impossible to physically do the same thing as the video :)
View attachment 11265004
Motorcycles are my biggest hobby; well next to reading. Videogames only come in third. The Ducati isn't made for tight turns, although with enough skill you can turn pretty tightly. It's made for high speed stability and deep lean angles through curves. As you point out, a lot of the bikes in the game would have terrible performance in tight turns. The rake on the bike you posted is at least 45 degrees, and probably more. That's basically a "chopper" with a fairing. You'd be about as well off trying to turn a city bus in a tight circle.
 
A good test could be to turn around the North Oak roundabout at regular speed (about 80-90 mph), without leaving a tire mark, without braking and only by adjusting "slightly" the throttle.
I'm not gonna lie, I launched the game only for testing and I went around the whole city. I love this bike too much (way better in first person) :D
In the absence of video, some screenshots
View attachment 11265082
The faults that bothers me a little bit (but it's "details") are that :
  • Normally from a certain speed on a bikes, to turn in one direction you "turn" the handlebars in the oposite way (to go to left, you turn the handlebars to the right).
  • The rear brake seem to be way too powerful. Normally it's almost insignifant (for braking). Only useful for help to turn.
But hey, that's still a details.
Here's another video. Removed all the motorcycle mods, so the bikes are wholly vanilla. Am trying to showcase that when driving normally, that is to say, low speeds, not too fast turns, any and all roll angle deflections are nonexistent.

Made measurements of the maximum roll angles of the bikes, and discovered that the Brennan Apollo's max roll angle sits on 40 degrees, and that of both the Yaiba and Arch on 30 degrees. If I were to advise CDPR, would recommend to leave the Brennans as is, raise the Archs to 50, and double the Yaibas to 60 degree.

To my accounts, that would suit all 3 nicely and accurately.

 
Here's another video. Removed all the motorcycle mods, so the bikes are wholly vanilla. Am trying to showcase that when driving normally, that is to say, low speeds, not too fast turns, any and all roll angle deflections are nonexistent.

Made measurements of the maximum roll angles of the bikes, and discovered that the Brennan Apollo's max roll angle sits on 40 degrees, and that of both the Yaiba and Arch on 30 degrees. If I were to advise CDPR, would recommend to leave the Brennans as is, raise the Archs to 50, and double the Yaibas to 60 degree.

To my accounts, that would suit all 3 nicely and accurately.
If you have access to a controller (borrow an Xbox controller from a friend), you will see won't be the same. When watching your video and from my feeling on my game, I notice few things. The bike does not tilt (or straighten up) if :
  • You release or push too much (violently) the throttle.
  • You turn too fast or release too quickly the handlebar.
  • If you brakes too much while turning.
With a keyboard, it's only "on/off" controls (by key/button), for example to turn "a little", you have to quickly turn at max and release the key (the same for throttle and brakes). So in any case, when you touch a key (whatever the one), the bike don't tilt or at least straighten up right away.
An another example at 40mph, I can do quick turns (right/left/right/left), and the bike tilt quite well in both side by turning at max but progressly without releasing the stick between both sides (it's totally impossible with a keyboard due to "on/off" output of keys).

In short, I suppose the tilt of the bike depend on how long you keep turning. And obviously, on keyboard it's almost one "little" push at max at time. Opposite to a controller where you can maintain the stick slightly and way longer. Same for brakes or throttle :(

And I also suppose (if you look my screenshots above), the third person view increase even more the sensation. On the first screenshot, the second and the third, it's the same moment (just change the camera angle/view). But on first person view, you can feel way better the tilt of the bike.

PS : I hate to not have a good net connection, I'd really love to make a video :(
 
If you have access to a controller (borrow an Xbox controller from a friend), you will see won't be the same. When watching your video and from my feeling on my game, I notice few things. The bike does not tilt (or straighten up) if :
  • You release or push too much (violently) the throttle.
  • You turn too fast or release too quickly the handlebar.
  • If you brakes too much while turning.
With a keyboard, it's only "on/off" controls (by key/button), for example to turn "a little", you have to quickly turn at max and release the key (the same for throttle and brakes). So in any case, when you touch a key (whatever the one), the bike don't tilt or at least straighten up right away.
An another example at 40mph, I can do quick turns (right/left/right/left), and the bike tilt quite well in both side by turning at max but progressly without releasing the stick between both sides (it's totally impossible with a keyboard due to "on/off" output of keys).

In short, I suppose the tilt of the bike depend on how long you keep turning. And obviously, on keyboard it's almost one "little" push at max at time. Opposite to a controller where you can maintain the stick slightly and way longer. Same for brakes or throttle :(

And I also suppose (if you look my screenshots above), the third person view increase even more the sensation. On the first screenshot, the second and the third, it's the same moment (just change the camera angle/view). But on first person view, you can feel way better the tilt of the bike.

PS : I hate to not have a good net connection, I'd really love to make a video :(
I always play any game with a PS controller.

When the Arch starts to drift like that in the vid on the roundabout, there are no mods involved and I steer softly according to the turn, with the choo gradually increasing. The bike just spontaneously starts to drift like that. Even when I let go the analog stick and the choo, it continues to drift like that reeling itself horrendously out of control.

The only way for me to recover the bike is to steer to the opposite direction like a rally racing car. And even that it only allows when I've sacrificed practically all my speed. You should try it for yourself with the Arch.

When I do exactly the same with the Apollo, it gradually roll angles accordingly until it reaches its max angle like any bike should. Am very suspicious about both the Yaiba and the Arch being motion captured based on the same bike, due to them handling comparably the same.

The Apollo was I think motion captured based on its own bike, due to it seemingly handling a lot better then the other two. Also looks and feels a lot more evaluated then the rest. At first I had my doubts, but now I'm certain.

Edit: I discovered later that you can let the Arch reach it's max roll angle by inputting instant maximum steering. In essence, steer like with a mouse & keyboard.
 
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I always play any game with a PS controller.

When the Arch starts to drift like that in the vid on the roundabout, there are no mods involved and I steer softly according to the turn, with the choo gradually increasing. The bike just spontaneously starts to drift like that. Even when I let go the analog stick and the choo, it continues to drift like that reeling itself horrendously out of control.

The only way for me to recover the bike is to steer to the opposite direction like a rally racing car. And even that it only allows when I've sacrificed practically all my speed. You should try it for yourself with the Arch.
Drift and "hard" braking are exactly the reasons why I supposed that you have used a keyboard :(

I don't how triggers are on PS controllers (or if there is really "triggers"), I never touched a PS controller since PS One. But if you can try a Xbox one, it could be a good test for know if it's the same or a little bit "improved". It's totally impossible for me to use a PS controller on Serie X... And I'm not sure if it's possible to use my Mac Keyboard/Mouse on it.

Because on Xbox, triggers have about half centimer of "travel" between 0 to 100%. So on my side, I can ajust quite well the throttle/brakes. I can maintain a smoothly 10mph (or whatever) without any drift like in your video or doing a very soft braking in a turn without loosing control. It's the reason why on my controller (razer) there are lock switchs to transform triggers into buttons when I play a shooter (for earn a little bit of reactivity) :)

I have no experience with the Appollo, I only drive Arch or Kusanagi since day one, but I'll try for sure ;)
 
Drift and "hard" braking are exactly the reasons why I supposed that you have used a keyboard :(

I don't how triggers are on PS controllers (or if there is really "triggers"), I never touched a PS controller since PS One. But if you can try a Xbox one, it could be a good test for know if it's the same or a little bit "improved". It's totally impossible for me to use a PS controller on Serie X... And I'm not sure if it's possible to use my Mac Keyboard/Mouse on it.

Because on Xbox, triggers have about half centimer of "travel" between 0 to 100%. So on my side, I can ajust quite well the throttle/brakes. I can maintain a smoothly 10mph (or whatever) without any drift like in your video or doing a very soft braking in a turn without loosing control. It's the reason why on my controller (razer) there are lock switchs to transform triggers into buttons when I play a shooter (for earn a little bit of reactivity) :)

I have no experience with the Appollo, I only drive Arch or Kusanagi since day one, but I'll try for sure ;)
Nope. Am using a controller. Just guessing but I think both Xbox and PS controllers are the same. Maybe either analog stick has different input tables, but yeah. Lots of similarities there. Although PS controllers don't have any lock switches.

The very fact the Apollo roll angles fairly well, was reason for me to ride it lots. Especially into the mountains.
Should try keeping with you that Cicada you get after rescuing Saul.
Only don't know whether or not it persists throughout the entire playthrough.
 
Nope. Am using a controller. Just guessing but I think both Xbox and PS controllers are the same.
From my memory, on PS One (a very long time ago... an eternity when talking about gaming stuffs...) the controller didn't have triggers, only buttons. It's mainly why I bought my very first Xbox (with Forza) :)
(And when I see your video and the rear wheel drift, I have doubts that there is real trigger as on Xbox controller).
For example, on my controller the triggers (LT/RT) can be "pushed" entirely "inside" the controller 0%-100% (almost travel by half centimeter). Opposite to LB/RB who are simply buttons.
Razer.png

But anyway, I'll try the Appollo :)
It's a shame, a video would be infinitely better than my attempts at explanations :D
 
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