Reveal needs complete overhaul

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Cause some people, and this may astonish you, have a brain.

I see. Thanks for letting me know - my lack of brain hurteez my hed sometimez.

So it's all brains, eh? Ah, I see. That'll explain how in the last game the oppo had, in their hand as a final play, Caranthir -> Yennefer -> Eredin -> Avallach -> Yennefer. Of course they also had SCORCH, in spite of having a deck with a few similar powered higher cards, which seemed to appear just in time to wipe out Imlerith. To add to this weirdness, their first two plays were SLYZARD - BRIDGE TROLL. Ended up with a 12 power Slyzard, yet they had Scorch in their hand conveniently waiting for my Imlerith to appear???? So they could in effect play each card they wanted to, in turn, which I could just stare at - I had nothing to combat it with.

It's an utter farce, anyone who thinks it ISN'T fixed is losing the plot!! My deck had cyclops/rotfiend/2 x epidemic/2 x predatory dive/2 x shackles, all quite useful counters to some of the above - but none of which appeared.

We're not in tin foil hat territory - if it isnt a fix I'd actually be astonished, there's just no way the deals can work out like that. Play a 12 unit, deliberately, with Scorch in your hand "just in case"?!?!?!? Get to hell man!

Too many players experience the same, and I'm not convinced the community has the player numbers anymore.
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That just makes it more obvious, honestly.
If you see Eredin, you know your opponent is gonna try to cheese you

Oh, what should I play with Sihil in a MO deck? Arachas?!
 
reveal is way better in HC, I disliked the fact people could see my hand, this shouldn't be allowed in any card game.

I just want to jump in on this and mention that Magic the Gathering, the oldest and most popular TCG, has various cards that can show the opponent's hand and even discard his/her hand completely. Of course, the latter part doesn't work in Gwent, but the former could still have worked in HC.

While I wasn't a particular fan of Reveal, I do like the beta implementation better because it was less random and it had more synergy.
 
HC deals with the "Reveal" mechanic a lot better..

Now reveal is just random though, and there's only one way to play it...

In Beta Gwent there wasn't just 1 "Reveal" deck, you actually had the choice of many decks and combos.

You could:
  • Have removal decks with fire scorpions that could be concealed (re-loaded)
  • Play for quick tempo (with Daerlans, golems)
  • Not focus on points and just gather information on enemies hand (maybe snipe a key sweers target)
  • Play aggressive with Venendals and try to ruin their carryover (or just combo Venendals with Cantarella)
  • Have mangonels with Vrygheff/Assire for some long rounds engine power.
  • Play NG handbuff and use spotters and Leo reveals for huge points.
  • Just go for a huge Henry play. (I'd seen like 30 point Henry plays)
There were so many options and combos. In HC all you can do is play out your Recruits/Arbalests/Spotters and get random points and then drop a big Sweers finisher. It's so boring in comparison because there's no player choice!
 
To the people who liked Beta Reveal..

I still believe Beta Reveal was an awful mechanic and a balancing nightmare for the devs..

I resorted into playing it completely out of spite and not because I found it fun..

I still believe reveal shouldn't be allowed in any card game unless there is a very strict limit to how many cards you can reveal from the hand of your enemy..

The moment you have half my hand (or the whole hand) revealed, there is no strategy, there is no outplay, there can be no bluffing.. The cards just play themselves...

Last but not least, you all forgot to mention that with Beta Reveal rabdomness was a decisive factor as well.. There was no way to know what you were about to reveal.. You just chose a card randomly 90% of the time..

So how is it you care about the RNG of HC Reveal but you turn a blind eye on the randomness of Beta Reveal? Could it be you are a bit subjective my good gentlemen?

P.S I could write tons of similar things about most of the HC criticism as well in order to explain why I don't agree with it.. But at the end of the day we just have to agree we disagree.. Regarding Reveal for example.. All I care about is that my hand cannot be revealed any more.. But you do not care about that.. All you care about is that you lost one of your favorite decks.. Cause apparently revealing the whole enemy's hand in a card game is "fun"....
 
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To the people who liked Beta Reveal..

I still believe Beta Reveal was an awful mechanic and a balancing nightmare for the devs..

I resorted into playing it completely out of spite and not because I found it fun..

I still believe reveal shouldn't be allowed in any card game unless there is a very strict limit to how many cards you can reveal from the hand of your enemy..

The moment you have half my hand (or the whole hand) revealed, there is no strategy, there is no outplay, there can be no bluffing.. The cards just play themselves...

Last but not least, you all forgot to mention that with Beta Reveal rabdomness was a decisive factor as well.. There was no way to know what you were about to reveal.. You just chose a card randomly 90% of the time..

So how is it you care about the RNG of HC Reveal but you turn a blind eye on the randomness of Beta Reveal? Could it be you are a bit subjective my good gentlemen?

P.S I could write tons of similar things about most of the HC criticism as well in order to explain why I don't agree with it.. But at the end of the day we just have to agree we disagree.. Regarding Reveal for example.. All I care about is that my hand cannot be revealed any more.. But you do not care about that.. All you care about is that you lost one of your favorite decks.. Cause apparently revealing the whole enemy's hand in a card game is "fun"....

When I used reveal I didn't care what I was revealing. That wasn't what I was focused on. If it revealed something helpful then that was just a bonus. Homecoming reveal is MUCH more reliant on RNG which is baffling when the devs claimed that they wanted to reduce RNG and focus on skill as a deciding factor.

For me I do agree with you to some extent about revealing someones hand. I was never a big fan of that. I just really dislike the direction that they took it in homecoming. Since they were apparently cool with stripping archtypes out of the game I would have preferred that they get rid of reveal and focus on spies and alchemy for NG.
 
When I used reveal I didn't care what I was revealing. That wasn't what I was focused on. If it revealed something helpful then that was just a bonus

If you did not care about what you were going to reveal (which was random) then why you care about the RNG in HC reveal???

Sorry but I cannot wrap my head around this....
 
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If you did not care about what you were going to reveal (which was random) then why you care about the RNG in HC reveal???

Sorry but I cannot wrap my head around this....

My point was my deck was not reliant on seeing the opponents cards. The RNG didn't matter. NOW the RNG is built into the cards. The value you get on them is completely dependent on RNG. Do you understand why players who are against RNG would be against the design of new reveal?
 
If you did not care about what you were going to reveal (which was random) then why you care about the RNG in HC reveal???

Sorry but I cannot wrap my head around this....
The best (win streak consistent) Reveal decks in Gwent were relying on revealing your own stuff (Daerlans and Scorpions or a NG Knight with Bonhart for a insta kill something big). Revealing Oppo stuff, albeit really annoying, was never that much point-wise effective. Instead, an occasional reveal of a surprising Oppo card was really helpful (usually R1 turn 1 with Morvran, when you pull your Golems out of your deck), but that was for the RNG with them. Also, they had TONS of nuances - Mangonels, Venedals, Handbuff, Scorpions with Conceal (which I was using the last few months, only problem was they had a point cap which made them auto lose to FN GS... and there came my personal Golds/Silvers package with Yen, Renew and Artifact Compression), few versions of Mill (of which I had two that were really, really strong).

And this is just the Morvran package I am talking about. The package here is of one Leader in one Faction for one Archetype...

How many Reveal packages does Homecoming have now and why all of them are so despised by us, poor cranky Beta-Bois?
 
So how is it you care about the RNG of HC Reveal but you turn a blind eye on the randomness of Beta Reveal? Could it be you are a bit subjective my good gentlemen?

Viper Witcher: Deploy: Reveal the top card from your opponents deck and banish it.

Recruit: Deploy: Reveal a random unit in both decks, if yours has a higher power, boost by 2.

Deithwen Arbalest: Deploy: Damage an enemy by 1, then reveal a random unit. If yours has more power, repeat the deploy ability.

Spotter: Deploy, Melee: Reveal a random unit from your opponent's deck and boost self by it's power.

I could continue to the neutral and NG faction golds. The point should be clear though. This is the stuff we got from people claiming Gwent was returning to it's roots and they were going to be careful with RNG related mechanics in the future.

The mechanics behind reveal where you see the cards flip isn't a problem. The specifics on the card mechanics are another story. There is quite a bit of difference between randomness in terms of what you reveal and making card value go up or down depending on what you reveal.
 
If you did not care about what you were going to reveal (which was random) then why you care about the RNG in HC reveal???

Sorry but I cannot wrap my head around this....

In addition to what people above said, beta reveal actually had way less RNG to it than many players think, because you got to choose which opponents' cards to reveal. This sounds like you are still revealing random stuff, but it actually isn't, because cards in the player's hand have a strict order, and mulligans always put new cards to one side of the hand.

It was actually possible to reveal the cards you wanted to reveal (the easiest example is Daerlans or scorpions in a mirror) by watching your opponent's mulligans and plays. And that involved skill, not RNG.
 
In addition to what people above said, beta reveal actually had way less RNG to it than many players think, because you got to choose which opponents' cards to reveal. This sounds like you are still revealing random stuff, but it actually isn't, because cards in the player's hand have a strict order, and mulligans always put new cards to one side of the hand.

It was actually possible to reveal the cards you wanted to reveal (the easiest example is Daerlans or scorpions in a mirror) by watching your opponent's mulligans and plays. And that involved skill, not RNG.
You totally wrong, cards in opponents hand was all random. In his hand and point of vue they were arranged like in your hand but from your point of vue oppo cards was in totally random order
 
You totally wrong, cards in opponents hand was all random. In his hand and point of vue they were arranged like in your hand but from your point of vue oppo cards was in totally random order

Yes, the position of the cards was random, but it was randomized once. And the cards your opponent drew after mulliganing were always put on one side of the hand. This was especially evident when there was a different card back for cards drawn by Shilard or created by the Operator.

Anyway, it was possible to reveal the cards you wanted to reveal with a very high chance.
 
Viper Witcher: Deploy: Reveal the top card from your opponents deck and banish it.

Recruit: Deploy: Reveal a random unit in both decks, if yours has a higher power, boost by 2.

Deithwen Arbalest: Deploy: Damage an enemy by 1, then reveal a random unit. If yours has more power, repeat the deploy ability.

Spotter: Deploy, Melee: Reveal a random unit from your opponent's deck and boost self by it's power.

I could continue to the neutral and NG faction golds. The point should be clear though. This is the stuff we got from people claiming Gwent was returning to it's roots and they were going to be careful with RNG related mechanics in the future.

The mechanics behind reveal where you see the cards flip isn't a problem. The specifics on the card mechanics are another story. There is quite a bit of difference between randomness in terms of what you reveal and making card value go up or down depending on what you reveal.
RNG is only a problem if it provides a significant advantage to the one who plays the card. Who cares about playing an opponent who plays bad cards that becomes average on a good roll of dice.

From that perspective, most examples you gave are irrelevant.

Viper Witcher : The RNG aspect of this card is a disadvantage, the none RNG version would be "Choose a card from your opponent's deck and banish it"...Do you prefere that?

Recruit : This is a 5 provision card, meaning you just gain +1 point on a good roll which is clearly not a big deal.

Deithwen Arbalest : Even worst than Recruit, this card is 5 provisions and generates 5 points. Meaning you have to high roll in order to get his average value.
And yes, on paper it's 2 points of removal but 1+1 in this archetype is really not gonna remove a whole lot, if anything.

The only card I agree with is Spotter, yes this card is shit.
I would say they should limit it to target bronze units but the truth is, I would prefere if they rework it entierly.
 
There is quite a bit of difference between randomness in terms of what you reveal and making card value go up or down depending on what you reveal.

Who cares about playing an opponent who plays bad cards that becomes average on a good roll of dice.

Aren't you saying the same?

Rng in reveal is bad because it's unfun to play against when it high rolls.
Rng reveal is bad because it's unfun to play it when it doesn't high roll.

The value of Tibor, Xarthisius, Triss, Yennifer, Golem, Spotter can be between 2-15 points depending on RNG.

So why is this mechanic even in the game? To make 10+ NG cards totally not fun to play?
 
RNG is only a problem if it provides a significant advantage to the one who plays the card. Who cares about playing an opponent who plays bad cards that becomes average on a good roll of dice.

From that perspective, most examples you gave are irrelevant.

Viper Witcher : The RNG aspect of this card is a disadvantage, the none RNG version would be "Choose a card from your opponent's deck and banish it"...Do you prefere that?

That comparison doesnt work. Viper witchers are broken for obvious reasons. Asking what about if you could choose the card which is obviously extremely OP doesn't change anything.

Recruit : This is a 5 provision card, meaning you just gain +1 point on a good roll which is clearly not a big deal.

Deithwen Arbalest : Even worst than Recruit, this card is 5 provisions and generates 5 points. Meaning you have to high roll in order to get his average value.
And yes, on paper it's 2 points of removal but 1+1 in this archetype is really not gonna remove a whole lot, if anything.

The only card I agree with is Spotter, yes this card is shit.
I would say they should limit it to target bronze units but the truth is, I would prefere if they rework it entierly.

I don't see any reason they had to build cards around RNG. Even if they aren't OP you can still end up losing to RNG which just feels stupid. There is already enough luck built into these card games. Adding more just makes the game worse.
 
I didn't read all the posts in between but I just wanted to comment on this although this post is old

Reveal was ALWAYS based on rng. RNG on getting footsoldiers to reveal. RNG on not getting flooded with golems in hand. RNG on getting the proper reveal tools if using Calveit. RNG on drawing into your Mangonel if used. RNG on hitting your opponent's footsoldiers on the mirror. RNG on avoiding getting your own footsoldiers revealed in the mirror.

I actually like the new reveal deck, really funny to play. Never going to be tier 1? It was never meta in the first place, i'll manage as usual.

You are mistaking Tempo for reveal. They are waaaaaay different. True reveal doesn't rely on Nilfgaard Knights so revealing foot soldiers are direct. Mulligan golems were never a big problem with Morvran. RNG existed with Calveit but thats because TEMPO CALVEIT was full of RNG. REVEAL MORVRAN had less RNG and more control over his play.

Home coming reveal sucks. As someone who played the reveal archetype for the majority of beta Gwent, the new reveal lacks one element that reveal players of old saw good about playing the former tier 2 deck; Information gain. Back in the beta, you revealed for information of the opponent's hand and made strategies where necessary to deal with an opponent's cards. Now reveal randomly shows me the cards that remain in my opponent's deck... at least twice, and there is no way for me to see whether that bronze is a duplicate or the very same one I saw.

I remain on break awaiting this fix as I have not had much fun with the other leaders but would be good for CDPR to return Reveal back to what it was with the slight change of not flooding us with cards that revealed and adding more cards that interacted once revealed.
 
So OP that I've never lost to this card...ever and I'm not even that good of a player.
Like, come on guys, you can claim it to be annoying but OP is really out of context.

I never said it was OP. VW may or may not hit a high value target. In cases where it hits a high value target you may be able to adjust around it. However, there are cases where the card it removes was so critical based upon the way the match-up, draws, rounds, flip, etc. work out to where it completely screws the other player. It's got zero to do with whether the card is OP. This extends to every reveal card. It's about whether it's good design.

Are we still talking about the cards I mentioned? Like, gaining 1 point on a good roll is "insane value"?

On Arbalest? Probably not. Before it was nerfed? Absolutely. The difference between 2 to 4 points of damage was huge. Regardless, see above. It's not about whether it's balanced.

In regards to VW and Traheaern, yes. The value range goes from insane to sub-par. You could luck into removing a 10+ provision gold card or get unlucky and find a 4 provision bronze card. I'm sure you would agree the difference between those two results is quite significant. Why should a player be rewarded or screwed over because of a card ability tied to RNG?

So, banishing from a GY or board is okay but from the deck, this is where you cross the line? Odd, very odd.

And again, you don't get a high value card banished on a good roll, your high value card is saved on a low one. It's completely different.
If your opponent were to choose he/she would go for the high value card by default, the RNG aspect of VW is a nerf.

The difference is virtually every deck removal or steal card is founded in RNG. Play VW, banish the top deck. Play Traheaern, look at the three top decks and toss one of them to the GY (on a 4 body for 6p... yeah....). Fringilla and Cantarella fit the same idea. The decision making in board/GY removals is more involved beyond playing a card and hoping you find something good. Furthermore, board/GY removals have play around ability. You can do something about them.

To clarify, I'm not saying VW should let you pick a card to banish either. I'm saying the mechanic of banishing a card from the opponent deck shouldn't exist at all. Make it do something else entirely.

A good example of how reveal should be is Morvran after the mulligan update. You get three +2 boost charges, each with a reveal. What you reveal is random. It's useful information no matter what. The result of the reveal is the same every single time. You get 2 boost points and synergies with cards like Mangonel/Sweers. It's reliable. It doesn't have huge variance depending on luck.
 
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