Robots, nanites and other automated appliances

[chriswebb2020.736]

First, thats not a car, it is a plane with folding wings.. I don't care what it's inventor call it.. Second, that machine is not directly connected to his brain, it is connected to his muscles, brain communicates with muscles and in turn, muscles deliver the it to the machine.. While it is a great progress in science, it is not same thing.. Not by far.. And we are not simply talking about controlling machines with mind here, we are talking about transferring the mind, the brain into a cyber brain.. Our technology is so primitive in comparison, i find this argument funny at best.. And examples you give for the technology, even if they were remotely same, is ridiculous.. It is like comparing Apollo 11 to Enterprise, just because we sent a man into the moon our technology must be somehow comparable or relative to the one in Star Trek.. Now, you don't like this example, but both are sci-fi and technology of cyberpunk (at least some of the technology) is no more likely than the one Star Trek has.. I mean, i can list you 20 technologies Star Trek it got right.. Still, sci-fi.. I mean, in Cyberpunk, you have spine replacement, eye replacement, nanites and so on..

It's road legal and it flies. How is that not a flying car?

Ok, fine:

Ok, it's a drawing, but the prototype flew in 2009. Flying car, there you go.


The cybernetic arm is on the other side of the room and it is connected to the nerves in his arm, not the muscles. His brain is telling the robotic arm to move through his nerves, just like Cyberarms in 2020. There have also been succesful tests where a man has implanted himself with microchips in his body and has been able to control a cybernetic arm in america from the UK, through the internet.


"Cyber-Brains" don't exist in 2020. You are confusing Cyberpunk with Ghost in the Shell. 2020 technology cannot replicate the spinal column or the brain. Full borgs need those two things at least. Often other 'meat' organs are transfered into the shell as well.

The only documented transfereals of conciousness from a human brain into a 'machine' are through the 'Soulkiller' virus. They are few and far between and they are housed either in the net, (Alt Cunningham,) or in a very high capacity storage device, (Kei Arasaka.) Either way, none of them are ever 'transfered' into any sort of 'body'.


Comparing current technology to that of 2020 is nothing like comparing today to star trek. The vast majority of the technology in 2020 is already present in the real world, (and some has even been surpassed.)

Railguns - Here, (although a lot bigger.)
Cell-Phones - Ours are far superior - 2020 didn't even have text messaging!.
Computers (in general) - Ours are more powerful.
Electric cars and alcohol based fuels - We have these too.
Virtual Reality Interfaces - we have them.
Cybernetics - We have them, (including eyes,) but we are behind on them.
Vat grown organs - We are there, we are starting to be able to do this NOW. Hell, we are on the verge of 3D printing organs!
Wi Fi - oops, 2020 didn't have that...

Hell, google glass is basically a crude form of 'mirror shades'!

If you want to continue to argue this particular point, then I suggest you wait until the actual year 2020 and then we can run a direct comparrison to what is around. Until then, I say that the real world is still catching up and is a lot closer than you think.

Also, "Grimm's Cybertales" state: (I know it is alternative reality, but it is still cyberpunk.)

"AI Zombies, Very rare:
(Common: ) AIs who take over humans minds and control them.
(Studied: ) AIs use Roper programs to write over the mind of humans and control them. Usually performed by rouge AIs.

Artificial Intelligence, Rouge, Very rare:
(Common : ) AIs who turn on their masters and have gone crazy.
(Studied: ) An AI who has abandoned its original programming and masters to pursue its own interest.

Artificial Intelligence, Uncommon:
(Common: ) A computer that is intelligent.
(Studied: ) A computer that can be original in its thinking. Some of the newer ones also have personalities.


Wait a sec! They have "newer ones" and "older ones"? How many AIs are there? Lets see: (Uncommon: ) In large number in major cities. There are a few thousand in the world... And that was 57 years ago..


I will be back as soon as i find that android reference..

Grimm's Cybertales is an alternate reality source book made by Ianus Games, not R. Talsorian. It was made for Cyberpunk, not as part of it. It is a Cyberpunk Horror expansion based on 'Night's Edge'. Would you suggest that 2077 should have Werewolves and Vampires in it because Nights Edge does? It even details psychic abilities like telepathy and telekenesis.

In short, it has no place in this conversation.

 

[thewarsend]

It's road legal and it flies. How is that not a flying car?

Ok, fine:

Ok, it's a drawing, but the prototype flew in 2009. Flying car, there you go..

This one is kinda better actually.. At least, no wings..

The cybernetic arm is on the other side of the room and it is connected to the nerves in his arm, not the muscles. His brain is telling the robotic arm to move through his nerves, just like Cyberarms in 2020. There have also been succesful tests where a man has implanted himself with microchips in his body and has been able to control a cybernetic arm in america from the UK, through the internet.

You know i didn't mean muscles and sometimes it is hard for me to find the right words.. Don't be like that.. And we were talking about direct brain interface.. In this situation, brain sends signal to the nerves, nerves send a signal to the machine and machine tries to interpret as best as it can.. No real brain - machine interface is achieved..

"Cyber-Brains" don't exist in 2020. You are confusing Cyberpunk with Ghost in the Shell. 2020 technology cannot replicate the spinal column or the brain. Full borgs need those two things at least. Often other 'meat' organs are transfered into the shell as well.

The only documented transfereals of conciousness from a human brain into a 'machine' are through the 'Soulkiller' virus. They are few and far between and they are housed either in the net, (Alt Cunningham,) or in a very high capacity storage device, (Kei Arasaka.) Either way, none of them are ever 'transfered' into any sort of 'body'.

Oh really? Was that supposed to be an insult or something?

"HITACHI/SONY "CYBERBRAIN" 22,600,00eb
(Japanese High-technology, Surgery Code: CRI, HL: 4D6)
Originally developed by Dynalar, however after going so far overbudget it nearly drove them to Bankruptcy they sold the patent and design to the Collaboration of Sony/Hitachi in one of the most closely guarded and secretive deals in history. After another six months of development, ending just 2 months ago, the Cyberbrain was unveiled and released. With a price tag that is beyond obscene, the technology behind this is available only to an elite few, but the possibilities that this breakthrough represents are limitless. The Cyberbrain duplicates all the functions of a normal brain and spinal cord, but theoretically does not suffer any of the adverse effects stemming from disease or age. It comes with rating 3 emp and electrical shielding, Ghost interface, and neural interface plugs. (Once implanted it also drops all further neuralware implantation by two surgical code levels, and humanity cost by a full die increment.)"

I'm using Wisdom's datafortress by the way..

Comparing current technology to that of 2020 is nothing like comparing today to star trek. The vast majority of the technology in 2020 is already present in the real world, (and some has even been surpassed.)

Railguns - Here, (although a lot bigger.)
Cell-Phones - Ours are far superior - 2020 didn't even have text messaging!.
Computers (in general) - Ours are more powerful.
Electric cars and alcohol based fuels - We have these too.
Virtual Reality Interfaces - we have them.
Cybernetics - We have them, (including eyes,) but we are behind on them.
Vat grown organs - We are there, we are starting to be able to do this NOW. Hell, we are on the verge of 3D printing organs!
Wi Fi - oops, 2020 didn't have that...

Hell, google glass is basically a crude form of 'mirror shades'!

If you want to continue to argue this particular point, then I suggest you wait until the actual year 2020 and then we can run a direct comparison to what is around. Until then, I say that the real world is still catching up and is a lot closer than you think.

You do notice Cyberpunk is still way ahead of us.. Sure, it has some limitations compared to our current technology, but all of that can be explained by the imagination of the writer.. If anything, you further proved my point.. It is not our universe..

Grimm's Cybertales is an alternate reality source book made by Ianus Games, not R. Talsorian. It was made for Cyberpunk, not as part of it. It is a Cyberpunk Horror expansion based on 'Night's Edge'. Would you suggest that 2077 should have Werewolves and Vampires in it because Nights Edge does? It even details psychic abilities like telepathy and telekenesis.

In short, it has no place in this conversation.

OK, you got me on that one.. Grimm's Cybertales is the only alternate reality sourcebook i got and i noticed it too late.. (Always ignored it before, now i remember why..) But non-alternate reality books still mention things about androids and AI's.. I just can't find all of them.. (Mostly because i don't have all of the books) And it was still a good reference.. Since alternate reality didn't invent AI business and it doesn't mention androids at all..

Still, there is this:

Also, Chromebook 3 has assisting/working bots/droids.. They walk around, clean the house and serve their masters.. Only if they had humanoid bodies.. What kind of intelligence do they have i wonder.. (Like i've always said, it doesn't have to be an AI) And cyberspace has references to androids..

And i will find more if necessary.. I may have to barrow my friends sourcebooks.. Why don't books have search buttons! Why!

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

You know i didn't mean muscles and sometimes it is hard for me to find the right words.. Don't be like that.. And we were talking about direct brain interface.. In this situation, brain sends signal to the nerves, nerves send a signal to the machine and machine tries to interpret as best as it can.. No real brain - machine interface is achieved..

I didn't know you didn't mean muscle. You said muscle so as far as I was concerned you meant muscle.

Nerves are just biological wires. They transmit the impulse from the brain to its destination and vice versa. It's basically the same as wiring the thing straight into the brain. But then again, Cyberlimbs in 2020 are not wired straight to the brain, they are wired into the nervous system, just like this one is.

Oh really? Was that supposed to be an insult or something?

You know me by now, if I was going to insult you I would have been far more creative. No insults here.

"HITACHI/SONY "CYBERBRAIN" 22,600,00eb
(Japanese High-technology, Surgery Code: CRI, HL: 4D6)
Originally developed by Dynalar, however after going so far overbudget it nearly drove them to Bankruptcy they sold the patent and design to the Collaboration of Sony/Hitachi in one of the most closely guarded and secretive deals in history. After another six months of development, ending just 2 months ago, the Cyberbrain was unveiled and released. With a price tag that is beyond obscene, the technology behind this is available only to an elite few, but the possibilities that this breakthrough represents are limitless. The Cyberbrain duplicates all the functions of a normal brain and spinal cord, but theoretically does not suffer any of the adverse effects stemming from disease or age. It comes with rating 3 emp and electrical shielding, Ghost interface, and neural interface plugs. (Once implanted it also drops all further neuralware implantation by two surgical code levels, and humanity cost by a full die increment.)"

I'm using Wisdom's datafortress by the way..

That one is made up, (it's based on the ones in Ghost in the Shell, hence the picture,) and it does not exist in any Cyberpunk product. The Cyberpunk books specifically say that the tech in 2020 is not capable of this.

You do notice Cyberpunk is still way ahead of us.. Sure, it has some limitations compared to our current technology, but all of that can be explained by the imagination of the writer.. If anything, you further proved my point.. It is not our universe..

In some ways it is ahead, in some ways it is behind.

The cyberpunk world follows our timeline up until about 1988, then it changes. That is because it was written back them so it was all a 'possible future'. That is why it is called an 'aternate timeline'. It's not like star wars, it isn't based in some different universe.

Also, Chromebook 3 has assisting/working bots/droids.. They walk around, clean the house and serve their masters.. Only if they had humanoid bodies.. What kind of intelligence do they have i wonder.. (Like i've always said, it doesn't have to be an AI) And cyberspace has references to androids..

View attachment 1109View attachment 1110
WAD's are remote controlled and the 'Robots' are basically vacuum cleaners with really simple AI. No androids.

I believe the only references to Androids in the 2020 setting are 'rumours'.

 

[thewarsend]

I didn't know you didn't mean muscle. You said muscle so as far as I was concerned you meant muscle.

Nerves are just biological wires. They transmit the impulse from the brain to its destination and vice versa. It's basically the same as wiring the thing straight into the brain. But then again, Cyberlimbs in 2020 are not wired straight to the brain, they are wired into the nervous system, just like this one is..

You got terribly side tracked there.. We were never talking about cyberarms.. I gave the example of brain interface and you gave the example of that robot arm saying it was mind controlled. My objection was, it does not have a direct connection with the brain, it uses the nerve endings on the arm, it cheats sir..

You know me by now, if I was going to insult you I would have been far more creative. No insults here..

I was just being cheeky there.. I know you didn't my friend..

That one is made up, (it's based on the ones in Ghost in the Shell, hence the picture,) and it does not exist in any Cyberpunk product. The Cyberpunk books specifically say that the tech in 2020 is not capable of this.

I know, i was trying to make a point.. In 57 years, technology may be capable of this..

In some ways it is ahead, in some ways it is behind.

The cyberpunk world follows our timeline up until about 1988, then it changes. That is because it was written back them so it was all a 'possible future'. That is why it is called an 'alternate timeline'. It's not like star wars, it isn't based in some different universe.

Yeah, first, i never said anything about Star Wars.. I said Star Trek.. Star Trek happens in our universe, not in some other universe.. Star Trek fallows our timeline until the moon mission.. In Star Trek alternate timeline, all space missions after the moon mission went right, thus space missions didn't lose their backings, the science focused on space travel and so on.. And like i've said, i can list 20 tech Star Trek got it right.. And hey, like your example, we do have some better technologies than Star Trek, but thats only because of the writers imagination factor..

View attachment 975View attachment 976
WAD's are remote controlled and the 'Robots' are basically vacuum cleaners with really simple AI. No androids.

I believe the only references to Androids in the 2020 setting are 'rumours'.

Simple or not, AI is an AI, you got FBC bodies, just install one of those "simple AI"s into one and you got yourself an android.. I'm sure there are less simple versions..

In fact, chromebook 3 states mini-cyberforms can be remote controlled by a human or an AI.. So there are AI's designed for more complex jobs.. (Assassination jobs no less)

And lets not forget that surprisingly mini-cyberforms has a better AI than both M-Bot and V-Bot.. They are certainly capable of doing many complex tasks at once..

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

You got terribly side tracked there.. We were never talking about cyberarms.. I gave the example of brain interface and you gave the example of that robot arm saying it was mind controlled. My objection was, it does not have a direct connection with the brain, it uses the nerve endings on the arm, it cheats sir..

Cheating???
How does the brain interace with the human body? Nerves.
How the hell is that cheating if you use exactlythe same nerves to control a cybernetic replacement?

You asked:

I mean, what makes you think our brains compatible to a machine and the technology is feasible?

I used this example to show that our brains are compatible with machines.

However, the way our brains work and the way silicon based data storage works is not compatable. That is why there are no 'Cyberbrains' in Cyberpunk.

I know, i was trying to make a point.. In 57 years, technology may be capable of this..

I have never disagreed with that. I stated that I do not WANT the technology in 2077.
Personal preference.

Yeah, first, i never said anything about Star Wars.. I said Star Trek.. Star Trek happens in our universe, not in some other universe.. Star Trek fallows our timeline until the moon mission.. In Star Trek alternate timeline, all space missions after the moon mission went right, thus space missions didn't lose their backings, the science focused on space travel and so on.. And like i've said, i can list 20 tech Star Trek got it right.. And hey, like your example, we do have some better technologies than Star Trek, but thats only because of the writers imagination factor..

You said:

You do notice Cyberpunk is still way ahead of us.. Sure, it has some limitations compared to our current technology, but all of that can be explained by the imagination of the writer.. If anything, you further proved my point.. It is not our universe..

My point was that Cyberpunk IS our universe. Saying it isn't is like comparing it to Star Wars. A galaxy far, far away and all that bullshit...

Simple or not, AI is an AI, you got FBC bodies, just install one of those "simple AI"s into one and you got yourself an android.. I'm sure there are less simple versions..

BWAHAHAHAHA...
That's funny...
That is like saying:

"Take the AI from this..:"

"...and put it in this..."

"...and it will work!"

The level of programming is totally different. Just getting a humanoid robot to stand on two feet takes a shit load of programming. Getting it to walk is much, much harder. Giving an android full control over a robotic body, plus giving it the ability to make decisions...
Not even remotely the same ballpark as a robot vacuum.

In fact, chromebook 3 states mini-cyberforms can be remote controlled by a human or an AI.. So there are AI's designed for more complex jobs.. (Assassination jobs no less)

And lets not forget that surprisingly mini-cyberforms has a better AI than both M-Bot and V-Bot.. They are certainly capable of doing many complex tasks at once..

Mini-Cyberforms are oversized bugs. They need barely very little programming compared to a full AI, (heck, they probably need about the same level of AI programming as a computer game boss...)

 

[Sydanyo]

Programming isn't exactly the same as true AI. You can't call simple programming "intelligent" by any means. So yeah, it's true that having robots with complex AI's in the game walking the streets everywhere wouldn't really fit if they were truly sentient and so on.

However, we already have incredibly complex robots that can react to a plethora of situations in the real life. ASIMO is obviously a good example of such software. We're using robotic drones and autopilots every day. Also, Cyberpunk 2020 has some pretty damn sophisticated ICE already in the game. So, having a robot with sentience isn't so out of place in that world. There are humanoid robotic bodies (Gemini) and there's AI's, so I don't see what the problem is. If they're in the world, there's really no point in complaining about them being in the game, because if they're in the world and lore, then they belong in the game as well.

Having said all that, I was referring mostly to remote controlled robot bodies, and robots which do simple tasks. Not I, Robot -style sentience.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Programming isn't exactly the same as true AI. You can't call simple programming "intelligent" by any means. So yeah, it's true that having robots with complex AI's in the game walking the streets everywhere wouldn't really fit if they were truly sentient and so on.

However, we already have incredibly complex robots that can react to a plethora of situations in the real life. ASIMO is obviously a good example of such software. We're using robotic drones and autopilots every day. Also, Cyberpunk 2020 has some pretty damn sophisticated ICE already in the game. So, having a robot with sentience isn't so out of place in that world. There are humanoid robotic bodies (Gemini) and there's AI's, so I don't see what the problem is. If they're in the world, there's really no point in complaining about them being in the game, because if they're in the world and lore, then they belong in the game as well.

Having said all that, I was referring mostly to remote controlled robot bodies, and robots which do simple tasks. Not I, Robot -style sentience.

It's a valid argument, and as I have already stated, the possibility is not the issue, its the actuality.

I have a problem with the addition of humanoid robots. I have less of a problem with non-sentient one, but I still have an issue with them.

It's personal choice.

 

[thewarsend]

I will not argue with you and take you seriously while you take every opportunity to twist my words and think you are really clevar whenever you try to make me look foolish.. I seriously do not want to believe you are retarded enough to not understand what i mean.. But i guess it seems easier to you if you tackle my words in a childish manner..

Also, A "SIMPLE AI" IS NOT SAME WITH A SIMPLE PROGRAMMING.. DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT AN AI IS? DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT LITTLE "IROBOT" HAS AN AI? HAHAHHAHAHHAHA

And yeah... You still don't get that brain thing.. I SAID "DIRECT BRAIN INTERFACE".. I can't make it clearer than that.. You know, FULL BODY CONVERSION NEEDS ONE.. WE WERE NEVER TALKING ABOUT CYBERARMS.. FORGET CYBER ARMS..

And that different universe thing.. Just because it is not our universe, it doesn't have to be galaxy for far away like Star Wars.. Did you ever heard of parallel universes?

EDIT.. I had a shit day, lets stop this thing before we ruin our friendship.. I love you man.. You are cool..

 

[schiff]

give it up wars.
and edit that thing fast

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

He doesn't need to. We both seem to have got a bit steamed over this and a lot of the issues, I think, are down to stuff being 'lost in translation'. I've just got back from a friends funeral, so I can understand that he's having a shitty day.

Anyway, the key issue is the 'direct brain interface'. Even full body borgs don't really use it, that is why they need the spinal column. It's a massive bundle of nerve fibres. It's just organic wiring.

 

[thewarsend]

He doesn't need to. We both seem to have got a bit steamed over this and a lot of the issues, I think, are down to stuff being 'lost in translation'. I've just got back from a friends funeral, so I can understand that he's having a shitty day.

I'm really sorry about your friend.. I hope you are ok..

I'm not even sure how did we end up having all those other arguments.. I think it was because i said cyberpunk is not our universe.. We should have agreed to disagree from that point..

Anyway, the key issue is the 'direct brain interface'. Even full body borgs don't really use it, that is why they need the spinal column. It's a massive bundle of nerve fibres. It's just organic wiring.

But that would mean if your spinal cord got damaged/injured and even if you are alive, you can't get full body conversion.. And it would be much easier to find nerves on an arm than to find them in spinal column.. Also, i just checked and in Chromebook 2, it says your nervous system gets changed with cybernetic nervous system..

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Thanks. He died of multiple organ failure 2 weeks ago, brought on by acute diabetes. He had already lost a leg and a hand to it. Anyway...

Upon rereading Chrome 2, it's the 'Biosystem' that cannot be replaced, which includes the brain, part of the spinal column and some organs, (which aren't specified.) It looks like if one of them is damaged, then you can't get a full body conversion, (you would probably die also.) But hey, maybe damage to them can be repaired with nanites?

Either way, they cannot be replaced with anything artificial.