Robots, nanites and other automated appliances

+
Robots, nanites and other automated appliances

I'm just wondering, how do we feel about robots and automated services (Like a shop managed by a robot).. Or any sort of nanites.. They are on the 2020 sourcebook, but do they really fit 2077? What do you guys think?
 
Would they be so out of place in a world were people have cybernetic, essentially robotic, parts respond to nerve impulses and where you can even make augmented reality objects be perceived by the human brain and even expand its capabilities with coprocessors and stuff?
I think androids would be nice, I liked how they were implemented in GITS with the white blood (anime only, they had red blood in the manga... wow!), their limited AIs (they can't even solve a self-reference paradox! Dummies!) and their being produced en masse as a clue to their nature...
I've also mentioned how I would so love to have something like the wasp robots in Human Error Processor (insectrons, cebots that came in different sizes and specifications) and I know there are "cyberforms" in Cyberpunk 2020. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the Techies don't normally consist on that (there's drone riggers in Shadowrun) but I suppose they are the ones to benefit more from them if you choose to build them that way.
 
Androids yes. Clunky droid-like robots no.

I'm pretty sure some sort of autorepairing/healing nanobots existing in the 2020 text so that should be included. It would be cool if they also added nanites that would quickly disintegrate corpses for stealth and solo gameplay.
 
Well, they sort-of do. They don't make healing that much faster, though. Speedheal is 1650eb per dose, ( a cyberlimb only costs 2500 or so - a 7.62 assault rifle is about 700) and means you heal in weeks instead of months. Nanotech healers in your body make your healing less weeks, maybe even to mere days.

But nano is no miracle cure and it's pretty limited in effect. And really, really expensive. Nanoware healing borgware is 5000eb.

Robots are no more common in 2020 than 1990 - heavily present in factories, less so everywhere else. Drones and smart weapons are around. Androids are a little bit too sleek and take away from that dirty cyberpunk feel. Maybe Europe?
 
Androids yes. Clunky droid-like robots no.

Androids are robots by definition.. And no one wants clunky droids in a setting like Cyberpunks.. If it has no style, it has no place..

Robots are no more common in 2020 than 1990 - heavily present in factories, less so everywhere else.

I was talking about any form of robot really, factory robots and androids included.

Drones and smart weapons are around. Androids are a little bit too sleek and take away from that dirty cyberpunk feel. Maybe Europe?

"Dirty cyberpunk feel" is not the only "feel" cyberpunk has.. I imagine the neighborhoods where the rich people live, corporate buildings, towers and plazas would have quite a "clean and sleek cyberpunk feel" to it.. Like Mirrors Edge office design:



In places like that, it is not hard to imagine android personnel.. (androids who serve employees) And it is not hard to imagine that in rich people's homes there would be "french maid 100" and "plasure bot 5000"... (In a world like cyberpunk? Hell yeah..)

And i would love to be able to buy a android maid/housekeeper for my safehouse.. He/she should have a reprogrammable personality.. I'm thinking something like "Wadsworth" from Fallout 3.. He was hilarious!! :D

You should even be able to buy parts and pieces for your android and upgrade it to defend the house.. If you are a techie (or you have the necessary tech skill), you should even be able to buy a heavily damaged android from the scrapyard and fix it yourself for cheaper prices.. (But it should still be really expensive..)

Androids should basically look like this:



And it should be highly illegal to cover them with real or true skin.. But you should still be able to do so.. (By paying off some fixer maybe) And you should be able to send them around to do infiltration and assassination jobs for you.. (Like HK-47 you meatbag)





But i agree that androids should be rare.. Truly rare.. But they should still exist in CP77 as they exist in CP2020. (As far as i remember)
 
Personally, I want CDPR to steer well clear of the 'Android' type of robot that Wars has provided pictures of. I have no problem with the factory type Sard refered to:



I also want AI to be really rare and limited in capability, just like they were escribed in 2020.

I just feel that the 'Android' has been over done and it will end up making the game too much about "Transhumanism" and not enough about "Cyberpunk". Cyberpunk should be about people exploiting machniary, not about machinary becomong human. That would be the inevitable direction that this kind of robotic automatons would end up taking the game.

Robotics should just provide specialised tools in the 2077 setting. Machines that have replaced humans in areas of technical ability and fine motor control. But then where would the over-populated masses of the cities send people to work?

I want a gritty, dark cyberpunk world. I want to see the unwashed masses dragging their feet on their way to their menial job with only a tastless microwave synthetic meal and some cheap drugs to look forward to to take their mind off the drudgery of their meaningless existence. If there needs to be a reason that people would not be replaced by robots, then I suggest that human life should simply end up being cheaper than a robot. The corporations wont invest in an expensive robot that they will have to constantly repair if they can pay a man to do the job and replace him when he can't do the job anymore.

I do expect to see more nano-tech in 2077. I also hope to see it become a little cheaper and more available to the middle classes, though still a little out of reach of the lower classes.
 
Personally, I want CDPR to steer well clear of the 'Android' type of robot that Wars has provided pictures of. I have no problem with the factory type Sard refered to:

I also want AI to be really rare and limited in capability, just like they were escribed in 2020.

I just feel that the 'Android' has been over done and it will end up making the game too much about "Transhumanism" and not enough about "Cyberpunk". Cyberpunk should be about people exploiting machniary, not about machinary becomong human. That would be the inevitable direction that this kind of robotic automatons would end up taking the game.

Robotics should just provide specialised tools in the 2077 setting. Machines that have replaced humans in areas of technical ability and fine motor control. But then where would the over-populated masses of the cities send people to work?

I want a gritty, dark cyberpunk world. I want to see the unwashed masses dragging their feet on their way to their menial job with only a tastless microwave synthetic meal and some cheap drugs to look forward to to take their mind off the drudgery of their meaningless existence. If there needs to be a reason that people would not be replaced by robots, then I suggest that human life should simply end up being cheaper than a robot. The corporations wont invest in an expensive robot that they will have to constantly repair if they can pay a man to do the job and replace him when he can't do the job anymore.

I do expect to see more nano-tech in 2077. I also hope to see it become a little cheaper and more available to the middle classes, though still a little out of reach of the lower classes.

Thats exactly why i suggested that it should exist, but it should be truly rare. There are many situations a rich corporate executor would trust an android over a human being.. And i only talked about some rich people having a few androids to toy with, the transhumanism and robots replacing humans all coming from you, not me.. I want androids to be a rarity, i want them to be really really expensive, not common enough to replace humans.. I'm beginning to think you didn't read a word i write.. (And do you think Bladerunner wasn't at all gritty and dark? You talk as if androids would make Cyberpunk universe a better and bright place.)

How about this, as dictated by law, androids would have a simple AI (or maybe VI) that would prevent them from doing more complex jobs only humans can do.. They would clean the house, call the police when an intruder breaks in the house.. You know, the simple things..They would be over expensive toys and a luxury, not something you would see everyday.. It is unrealistic to think that the people who can make full body conversions, can make AI's and VI's won't make androids for rich people..
 
I understand where you are coming from. I just have a complete distrust of robotics and computer controlled anything.

I also doubt that top executives would entrust anything to emotionless androids, due to the fact they could be reprogrammed or hacked without their knowledge. At least people who show emotions can be caught out.

(Robotic Hound tipping was a common offense against the NCPD canine departments... The hounds would be reprogrammed to attack and kill police instead of criminals.)
 
Full body replacements/conversions are basically a full on robot body with just the brain and spinal cord of the actual person inside of it. Some of them look like humans, others don't. They're all an integral part of Cyberpunk 2020, and as such most likely exist in 2077 as well.

You could basically have a full body replacement with a computer instead of a human brain in it, so effectively a robot. This robot could then be controlled remotely. Or, it could be driven by an AI, making it a sentient robot.

Whether those characters in 2077 will be AI-driven or have an actual human brain in them, makes very little difference. Our characters wouldn't be able to tell from the outside anyway, as they'd all look "robotic" whether they'd be robots or conversions.



Gotta have something like those in the game, at least in some form. Obviously not many Dragoons walking around, but anyway. :cool:
 
Full body replacements/conversions are basically a full on robot body with just the brain and spinal cord of the actual person inside of it. Some of them look like humans, others don't. They're all an integral part of Cyberpunk 2020, and as such most likely exist in 2077 as well.

You could basically have a full body replacement with a computer instead of a human brain in it, so effectively a robot. This robot could then be controlled remotely. Or, it could be driven by an AI, making it a sentient robot.

Whether those characters in 2077 will be AI-driven or have an actual human brain in them, makes very little difference. Our characters wouldn't be able to tell from the outside anyway, as they'd all look "robotic" whether they'd be robots or conversions.



Gotta have something like those in the game, at least in some form. Obviously not many Dragoons walking around, but anyway. :cool:

And that is exactly what I would prefer to see avoided. The control program for a robot is arguably the most difficult part to produce. It isn't just a case of putting a computer on a robotic body. Look at present day robotics as an example. It's difficult enough to get the thing to balance while walking, let alone carry out other tasks.

I really feel that the autonomous AI, (and especially the sentient AI,) barrier should not be crossed.
 
Full body replacements/conversions are basically a full on robot body with just the brain and spinal cord of the actual person inside of it. Some of them look like humans, others don't. They're all an integral part of Cyberpunk 2020, and as such most likely exist in 2077 as well.

You could basically have a full body replacement with a computer instead of a human brain in it, so effectively a robot. This robot could then be controlled remotely. Or, it could be driven by an AI, making it a sentient robot.

Whether those characters in 2077 will be AI-driven or have an actual human brain in them, makes very little difference. Our characters wouldn't be able to tell from the outside anyway, as they'd all look "robotic" whether they'd be robots or conversions.



Gotta have something like those in the game, at least in some form. Obviously not many Dragoons walking around, but anyway. :cool:

You could also put dog or dolphin brain instead of human brain.. Intelligent and totally trainable.. A virtual intelligence system could guide the animals actions with positive encouragement, so it wont make mistakes.. It would also be one hilarious conversation.. :D

"Who is a good dog? You are a good dog!
Yes master, woof woof..
Now clean the house and if anyone other than me comes in kill them.. Good girl.."

And that is exactly what I would prefer to see avoided. The control program for a robot is arguably the most difficult part to produce. It isn't just a case of putting a computer on a robotic body. Look at present day robotics as an example. It's difficult enough to get the thing to balance while walking, let alone carry out other tasks.

I really feel that the autonomous AI, (and especially the sentient AI,) barrier should not be crossed.

You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.. We don't have cyberarms, virtual nets, flying cars or cyber brains either.. And as you well know, it is already established the AI systems exists in CP2020 and they are totally capable of walking, cleaning and shooting...
 
You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.. We don't have cyberarms, virtual nets, flying cars or cyber brains either.. And as you well know, it is already established the AI systems exists in CP2020 and they are totally capable of walking, cleaning and shooting...

I am really tired of hearing that first sentance.

The world of Cyberpunk is not magical, it is technological. It is not another world, it is an alternate timeline to our own. There is an element of Sci-Fi, but it is based on feasibility. The greatest part of The Cyberpunk world for me is that it is so close to our own. Yes the tech is different, but it is not alien. It is still based on what can and 'could' be possible. Sure, we don't have cyberlimbs like 2020 does, but we do have cybernetic limbs. We do have virtua nets, flying cars are in development and cybernetic brain augmentation is being researched. Cyberpunk technology is based on real world technology that took a different development path.

Yes, there are AI in 2020, but they are incredibly rare. So rare that most deny their existance. The resources required to maintain them mean that they are housed in vast mainframes that take up entire levels of corporate buildings. Now the smart man takes this opportunity to remind us about the progression of computer tech and that 25 years ago the average computer only had a few megabytes of storage space, if that, and now we are looking at about a terrabyte. (But that argument isn't valid unless we are comparing technology in Cyberpunk to the real world.) So, sure, maybe by '77 a full AI could be housed in a space small enough to fit inside an android style automaton. Maybe...

But I say it shouldn't and for me it would piss me right off. I have great disdain for the idea of implementing this kind of thing in the Cyberpunk world. It's just too close to transhumanism and we would go from what this Cyberpunk world has always been about and we step into the world of 'Blade Runner', 'Ghost in the Shell' and 'I-Robot'. Now they are not bad, but they are Not Cyberpunk 2020 and they should not be 2077.

And don't even get me started on sentience...
 
I am really tired of hearing that first sentance.

REALLY?

You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.

Won't give me my API/DP rounds, eh? Eh? Then SUFFER.
 
I am really tired of hearing that first sentance.

The world of Cyberpunk is not magical, it is technological. It is not another world, it is an alternate timeline to our own. There is an element of Sci-Fi, but it is based on feasibility. The greatest part of The Cyberpunk world for me is that it is so close to our own. Yes the tech is different, but it is not alien. It is still based on what can and 'could' be possible. Sure, we don't have cyberlimbs like 2020 does, but we do have cybernetic limbs. We do have virtua nets, flying cars are in development and cybernetic brain augmentation is being researched. Cyberpunk technology is based on real world technology that took a different development path.

Yes, there are AI in 2020, but they are incredibly rare. So rare that most deny their existance. The resources required to maintain them mean that they are housed in vast mainframes that take up entire levels of corporate buildings. Now the smart man takes this opportunity to remind us about the progression of computer tech and that 25 years ago the average computer only had a few megabytes of storage space, if that, and now we are looking at about a terrabyte. (But that argument isn't valid unless we are comparing technology in Cyberpunk to the real world.) So, sure, maybe by '77 a full AI could be housed in a space small enough to fit inside an android style automaton. Maybe...

But I say it shouldn't and for me it would piss me right off. I have great disdain for the idea of implementing this kind of thing in the Cyberpunk world. It's just too close to transhumanism and we would go from what this Cyberpunk world has always been about and we step into the world of 'Blade Runner', 'Ghost in the Shell' and 'I-Robot'. Now they are not bad, but they are Not Cyberpunk 2020 and they should not be 2077.

And don't even get me started on sentience...

Wow, calm down there mate.. You being sick of hearing it does not make it any less true.. It is a sci-fi, you know why? Because normally you shouldn't be able to transfer your mind into a machine.. I mean, what makes you think our brains compatible to a machine and the technology is feasible? And don't give me "it is being researched" bullshit.. Cold fusion and terraforming mars and venus is being researched too.. And i NEVER EVER claimed technology was alien..

And do you really want to start technology progression argument? Really? May i ask you why their technology didn't evolve AT ALL (minor tweaks doesn't count) since 2020? (And don't give me that "it is the same universe but an alternative timeline to ours" argument... It is exact same argument Star Trek people give.. Does that mean if Apollo mission didn't fail, we would be in space by now?)

And cyberpunk does have androids.. Does it not? What kind of intelligence they have is not the question here..
 
REALLY?

You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.You can't compare today's technology to the one cyberpunk has.

Won't give me my API/DP rounds, eh? Eh? Then SUFFER.

Hey Mr 'I was a Highrider!', do you want to find out how the guys in Colorado Springs felt?
 
Not sure about this. I'm pretty certain nano tech was so prevalent in the first Deus Ex because of the graphical/tech restrictions of the day. I think excessive nano tech can verge on magical like properties, and I'd prefer they avoid that.
 
Wow, calm down there mate.. You being sick of hearing it does not make it any less true.. It is a sci-fi, you know why? Because normally you shouldn't be able to transfer your mind into a machine.. I mean, what makes you think our brains compatible to a machine and the technology is feasible? And don't give me "it is being researched" bullshit.. Cold fusion and terraforming mars and venus is being researched too.. And i NEVER EVER claimed technology was alien..

And do you really want to start technology progression argument? Really? May i ask you why their technology didn't evolve AT ALL (minor tweaks doesn't count) since 2020? (And don't give me that "it is the same universe but an alternative timeline to ours" argument... It is exact same argument Star Trek people give.. Does that mean if Apollo mission didn't fail, we would be in space by now?)

And cyberpunk does have androids.. Does it not? What kind of intelligence they have is not the question here..

I am completely calm.

By 'Alien' I was refering to it being 'unknowable', not extraterrestrial. In that way you were saying that Cyberpunk tech is 'Alien' because you are saying it bears no correlation to real life.
Alien - "a·li·en" - adj.
1. Owing political allegiance to another country or government; foreign: alien residents.
2. Belonging to, characteristic of, or constituting another and very different place, society, or person; strange. See Synonyms at foreign.
3. Dissimilar, inconsistent, or opposed, as in nature: emotions alien to her temperament.

I am not starting the argument. I have already had it in multiple threads, several times.

As for "What makes me think that our minds are compatible", THIS does.
Cybernetic limbs are already in use and they can be controlled by being directly linked into our brains. The tech is REAL and it works. (And I am sure it won't be too long before the military finds an excuse to weaponise it... In fact, I would put money on them already trying as we speak.)



That is a Flying Car. It is real. It's just not in the public domain. Hence why I said, 'In Development'.

I did not say that tech couldn't or wouldn't progress. Quite the opposite.

Trekkies do use the same reasoning, but Star Trek is based way into the future, and it is far more reliant on Sci Fi than Sci Fact when compared to Cyberpunk. You can argue this point with me all you want, but I am paraphrasing Mike Pondsmith on this, so you wont get far. Cyberpunk is Sci Fi, but it is still close to home, thats what is so damn cool about it. All the technology, (well, almost all,) is explained in the books. There are descriptions of how the stuff works all over the place. Sure, some thngs are a bit 'left-field', (Slam Dance memory metal knives for one,) but for the most part it is standard stuff.

The reason we are not 'in space' at present, (as far as I am concerned,) is because the governments of the world decided the risk vs reward wasn't good enough. There are tons of obstacles to life in space, (litterally tons, some of which is all the crap we kept putting in orbit that has become lethal shrapnel...) It is also really expensive to get stuff up there. Did you know it costs roughly $5,000 to get 1lb of matter up there? That means it costs $1.3m to put an average man in a spacesuit in space... Your talking about a shitload of cash to get a single habitat running in space and what would it do? How would it pay for itself?
 
Not sure about this. I'm pretty certain nano tech was so prevalent in the first Deus Ex because of the graphical/tech restrictions of the day. I think excessive nano tech can verge on magical like properties, and I'd prefer they avoid that.

I think the 'magic' side of it could be potentially countered by 'side effects' and 'technical malfunctions'. But it is a valid concern.
 
I am completely calm.

By 'Alien' I was refering to it being 'unknowable', not extraterrestrial. In that way you were saying that Cyberpunk tech is 'Alien' because you are saying it bears no correlation to real life.


I am not starting the argument. I have already had it in multiple threads, several times.

As for "What makes me think that our minds are compatible", THIS does.
Cybernetic limbs are already in use and they can be controlled by being directly linked into our brains. The tech is REAL and it works. (And I am sure it won't be too long before the military finds an excuse to weaponise it... In fact, I would put money on them already trying as we speak.)



That is a Flying Car. It is real. It's just not in the public domain. Hence why I said, 'In Development'.

I did not say that tech couldn't or wouldn't progress. Quite the opposite.

Trekkies do use the same reasoning, but Star Trek is based way into the future, and it is far more reliant on Sci Fi than Sci Fact when compared to Cyberpunk. You can argue this point with me all you want, but I am paraphrasing Mike Pondsmith on this, so you wont get far. Cyberpunk is Sci Fi, but it is still close to home, thats what is so damn cool about it. All the technology, (well, almost all,) is explained in the books. There are descriptions of how the stuff works all over the place. Sure, some thngs are a bit 'left-field', (Slam Dance memory metal knives for one,) but for the most part it is standard stuff.

The reason we are not 'in space' at present, (as far as I am concerned,) is because the governments of the world decided the risk vs reward wasn't good enough. There are tons of obstacles to life in space, (litterally tons, some of which is all the crap we kept putting in orbit that has become lethal shrapnel...) It is also really expensive to get stuff up there. Did you know it costs roughly $5,000 to get 1lb of matter up there? That means it costs $1.3m to put an average man in a spacesuit in space... Your talking about a shitload of cash to get a single habitat running in space and what would it do? How would it pay for itself?

First, thats not a car, it is a plane with folding wings.. I don't care what it's inventor call it.. Second, that machine is not directly connected to his brain, it is connected to his muscles, brain communicates with muscles and in turn, muscles deliver the it to the machine.. While it is a great progress in science, it is not same thing.. Not by far.. And we are not simply talking about controlling machines with mind here, we are talking about transferring the mind, the brain into a cyber brain.. Our technology is so primitive in comparison, i find this argument funny at best.. And examples you give for the technology, even if they were remotely same, is ridiculous.. It is like comparing Apollo 11 to Enterprise, just because we sent a man into the moon our technology must be somehow comparable or relative to the one in Star Trek.. Now, you don't like this example, but both are sci-fi and technology of cyberpunk (at least some of the technology) is no more likely than the one Star Trek has.. I mean, i can list you 20 technologies Star Trek it got right.. Still, sci-fi.. I mean, in Cyberpunk, you have spine replacement, eye replacement, nanites and so on..

Also, "Grimm's Cybertales" state:

"AI Zombies, Very rare:
(Common: ) AIs who take over humans minds and control them.
(Studied: ) AIs use Roper programs to write over the mind of humans and control them. Usually performed by rouge AIs.

Artificial Intelligence, Rouge, Very rare:
(Common : ) AIs who turn on their masters and have gone crazy.
(Studied: ) An AI who has abandoned its original programming and masters to pursue its own interest.

Artificial Intelligence, Uncommon:
(Common: ) A computer that is intelligent.
(Studied: ) A computer that can be original in its thinking. Some of the newer ones also have personalities.


Wait a sec! They have "newer ones" and "older ones"? How many AIs are there? Lets see: (Uncommon: ) In large number in major cities. There are a few thousand in the world... And that was 57 years ago..

Also, Chromebook 3 has assisting/working bots/droids.. They walk around, clean the house and serve their masters.. Only if they had humanoid bodies.. What kind of intelligence do they have i wonder.. (Like i've always said, it doesn't have to be an AI) And cyberspace has references to androids..

I will be back as soon as i find that android reference..
 
Top Bottom