Roles : How to balance them?

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Roles : How to balance them?

We still don"t know if there will be role, or just a character you'll have to build, giving him specifics skills (like in Fallout), but, if CDPR is true to the original Pnp, there are good chances that roles will be there.

Now, how do you think we could balance them so each role would have it's own benefits, and I already see some guys looking at me like "Hey, we don't give a shit about balance, we don't want MP", and that's not what I mean in balance

Every game needs balance, even SP, take a shooter, an RPG, an Fighting Game, if the game want to be competitive and challenging, it have to be well thinked in terms of balance, no "overpowered" role, and no "useless" one.
For example, in a fighting game, people tends to take the more "casual" character, because it's simple, and you just have to mash a button to win, that said, those kind of "casual character" are often broken and not really effective when they confront a good player with a balanced character (for example, everyone hate on Reptile in MK9, prefering to play with Scorpion or Smoke, when in fact, Reptile is maybe one of the most powerfull character in the game, he looks "slow and useless", but once you master him, you just master the whole screen, so your enemy is screwed at the smaller mistakes he makes, it's all about strategy!).

The same in Diablo 3 when a class is more effective in a domain, and another in the oposite domain, so they aren't in competition, but they're worth working together, take a wizard and a Barbarian, and you'll cover way more grounds than just with a Wizard or just a Barbarian, see what I mean?
Or in a FPS/Shooter, when the light weapon fires faster than the powerfull ones (imagine a sniper rifle able to shoot at the speed of a 9mm or a assault rifle firing rockets, it would be totaly broken)

Here what kind of roles do we have?

The Solo
The Cop
The Nomad
Netrunner
Techie/MedTechie
Corporate
Media
Fixer
(Maybe alternatives classes like Street Punk or Panzerboy)

I can see it from here, everyone will play a solo if you keed the basic rules in minde.
Not saying that solo are bad, as a GM i've seen that everyone took them so "no need to think too much, you're just here to shoot at targets", when it's way harder to master a Techie a Media, a "good" Cop character, etc...(as a player as much as a GM)
That's not really like this you'll get the best out of Cyberpunk, IMO.

So, then, how can we make all those classes being interesting and making you want to play each one to taste a different side of Cyberpunk?
I'd say, let each of them having their "Special Ability", but in a "graphic way", something cool, THE POINT of each classes.
That is how I balance my game usualy, keeping in mind that any role can do everything, each one have better points in different aptitudes.
I divise them in 3 great classes, do not take them too litteraly thought, it's more like an overall idea about the vibes of the differents roles.

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ACTION CLASSES
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Solo : you are a killing machine, maybe a few special skills to be more accurate, compensate recoil, or at least some special "combat related" skills, It's the simplier and dumber role, he follows order, kills people and get on with it.
just add enought "hole" in the armor so they keep being human beings, and so, killeable more than a bunch of terminator.
Give the solo a better handling of the heavy weapons, I already hear "Hey, just this?" Yes, just this, Solo are pointless when you remove fight from the equation.
If you play a solo, you agreed to play an (almost) empty brain with big muscle and a full auto rifle, Solo are the kind of role when you fight problems in front, so IMO they're already overpowered in the pnp, they need to be pushed down a lil, not hating on Solos, but they're the most played role and the most boring too, they need to fix it in Cyberpunk 2077 so they keep being the "action guys" but lowering their balance level so Solo isn't anymore in "God-tier" and everyone else in "Low Tier" (because, that's almost how it is in the Pnp, once you have a few solos, the game become anoying for everyone who isn't a "brutal badass", because you have to choose "should i put action, so solo's are happy? or should i keep it low so my 4 other players'll end the day alive?.", that's the main problem with Solo, about balance "just give them a gun and a shooter gameplay" is all what it takes to make a solo, I'd say make them some kind of "Soldier", like a Cop but without the "job" problem, some skills to repair their weapons if they're broken or jammed, but nothing more, Solo are urbans hitmans or bodyguard, so they have training and equipement to be so, they're not natural born genius in the art of killing.


Cop: everyone get freaky at it, but it's one of the simplier IMO, with each role, you'll have probably police after you at some point... And then, what happend when you're a cop? Logicaly, nothing!
Just look at now when they do a mistake, it's often hard for a cop to be fired, unless he's done something really wrong, so I doubt it'll be different when there'll be more crime than cop, still, they needs to implement a whole "cop" system (not that hard, just some rank like in the "Serve & Protect" book), and a bunch of rules, like:
You've your service's weapon, every bullet you'll shoot will be recorded (with gun cam), and added to your daily report, so if you want to be a crooked cop, or go killing people, just buy a personnal weapon, steal one, or use your hands.
Then, a Cop character would have to enjoy the pleasure of the law enforcement.
Need a car? just stop one: "Police! I need your car for a special investigation, now!" (like in movies you know), show them your badge and go with their car, the same could be applied to a lot of different settings, like a fixer'll probably make good prices for a cop, because it's better to have a cop as a friend than as a foe... I mean if you're the Police, you could be able to arrest people, stealing their goods (sure you'll have a screwed reputation, and everyone will try to kill you... but you'll have the right to do it lol), calling for Backup, etc... well : BEING A COP.
That's the point of the Cop, you can play above the law, which makes the game a lil easier (you can walk in the street with a assault rifle and taking a car, you're granted to, when any other player would be chased by police right on), but you have to respect some rules related to your job (gun-cam, reputation, etc...), if you screw, you go on a lower grade, with less possibility of being "above the law", every one love Traffic Control...
That open a cool way of being able to play a cop, having the possibility to play a badass, but instead of solos (who are the "soldier for hire" type), who's able to work and do whatever he wants, but being on the edge of the law, and nomads (somewhat like the cop but in a "mad max without law" kind) who'll be trash talked once they walk in the street, a cop is a mix between, having the advantage of the law behind him, but being "forced" to being a cop, so you'll have to watch your step if you don't want to end up doing the Traffic Control.
Like Solo, they're able to jam out their gun, etc... but they're just "cop" so if your gun is broken, you return to the police station "hey boss, I need a new one".



Nomad :
Not effective in Night City, but on the oposite of every other classes, you shoud be the KING when you leave that mega-concrete-dump.
Being somewhat known by other clans, so your travel across the wasteland would be less dangerous for you (I'd figure that a nomad clan would welcome a friendly nomad, but would probably fire on any stranger going in their way). If the game take survival and stuff like this in count, you should have better capacities to hunt food, etc... Being able to call a few friends to help, in fact, it would be a good mix between cop and solo.
Having a lot of freedom, and a good understanding of almost all weapon, but where Solo and Cops rules the City, here, only the Nomades rules of the wasteland (+ if there isn't Panzerboy role, you can add some vehicules bonus to the Nomad), and on the opposite, when you go in town, everyone will ostracize you "Look at those dirty nomads, i can smell their stinks from here".
Plus, at the oposite of the Cop and Solos, Nomads are the ugly childen of the future, they live on their own, so a Nomad, despite being hated by any urban citizen would have, in counterpart, some better skills when it comes to repair, upgrading and even building some vehicules/item/weapon, etc... but at a survival/low level (keeping some kind of "mad max" design to show it's handmade, like Fallout), on the opposite of Cop and Solo, no one likes you in Night City, but the good thing is that you have plenty friends in the wasteland, so you're not totally alone (with backup, etc... like the Cop, but not "law & shits" to bother you)

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ENGINEER CLASSES
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Netrunner
: An usual character, with "mid-tier" skill, Mr Everybody, but he would just be the Solo of the Cyberspace, when with everyone else you should have to ask peoples and risking your life for a few informations, here you just should have to go on the net, you'd be less effective "In Real Life", but Online, you should be able to do almost anything you want, that's quite a good counter part on power balance, there are even Combat's-Netrunners, but since they aren't the badass-type, they would logicaly crouch in a corner, being covered by a bunch of solos, etc... as they crack the datafortress inside the building they breaked in.
Netrunners are the wizards, you don't want to find yourself in the middle of a night-club fight, filled with Dorph's high punk with a 'Runner, but hacking personnal data, selling them, upgrading/building a cyberdeck, helping a thief-gang to penetrate a building, creating programs, etc... would be totaly possible, a Netrunner do his money by selling stuff he hacks on the web, so even if you're out in the street, you'll hardly need a gun beyond a handgun, rifle, etc.. the kind of light weapon for protection.
Netrunner's kingdom is the Software.


Techie:
The Hardware side of the Netrunner, a Techie should be able to build weapons, vehicules, cybernetics, equipement, cyberdeck to a higher level than any other Role, they can hack doors, security, camera, they're kings of sneaking, they can fix the cybernetics, etc...
Sure, that sound "overpowered" but a Techie is much as a Medtechie or a Netrunner, he's not the kind of guy who'll go in a fight, sure he can, but in front of a Solo/Nomad/Cop, his job is being an engineer, he doesn't have the training that those three have, he can make you an arasaka rifle if you give him pieces and a blue print, but he'll never be the best at firing with it. Fixing cars, or updating them or whatever would work like the nomad, but on a way higher level, where Nomads just do it for survival with whatever they find, a Techie will do the best thing with the best materials aviable (depending of the level and aviability of the pieces for, of course), thought, he can't do EVERYTHING, but, if the netrunner is the king of the web and software, Techie is the king of the hardware and equipement, he lives by selling it, so he's the best at those kind of things.
A techie can, for example be a cameraman for a Media character, he can shoot, etc... but not as good as a solo, instead he can upgrade his cybernetics/weapons with deadly stuff who'll balance the power, also he can check the statut of his cybernetic with more precision than other roles.
He's the cop of the engineer's classes, he's not so omnicient as the Netrunner, but his ability to create goods makes him more effective in the real world, he dont need any interface to jam a door, he just need his screwdriver and his brain.


MedTechie:
The kings of flesh and dope, a Techie can help a wounded person, heal himself, creating drugs, implanting cybernetics, have a wide knowledge and good "dialogue options", not as much as media, but he's supposed to be really smart, he can create drugs and selling it, can implant himself some cybernetics (really light chirurgy), that lower the costs of them, sure, "like that" he doesn't seems the most interesting character, but if you can create drugs with an higher level than other classes, that reduce the secondary effects (and makes the costs higher), so a Medtechie can dope himself with not so bad products, boosting his reflexes, or whatever, he can play it on the "biology science" side, sure that sound a lil over the top saying it like this, but instead of shooting, you'll sneak with your tear gas, hypodermic darts, etc... A techie can create you a dartgun, but a MEDTECHIE can definitaly makes you the drug to go with it. He's a basic character, but the fact he can enhance his body by creating drugs in a easier way for different goal can make him an interesting alternative.
Somewhat like the nomad, he doesn't have the "power" advantage of Netrunners and Techie, but his ability to cure himself, boost his skills with dope, being able to drug peoples without killing them, being slightly more "open", than Runner and Techie makes him interesting. They're not some action type of guys, but they fill the blank by being able to do better thing with the same equipment than a cop/solo/nomad, a lil less efficient with it, but updating it to better extend.

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TALKTATIVE / RP CLASSES
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Media: A Media is the kind of character for the "talkative" persons, you'll not be the best with guns, or equipment, or whatever, but your dialogues options are your favorite field, usualy you'll make interview, shooting events (and selling them), discovering the truth by talking with people (hey, each role his "way" of playing it after all), depending on your reputation and which news network your work for, people will love you or hate you, a Media is the kind of guy who hide behind a thrashcan to film a gunfight, or go doing interview with the Militech C.E.O.
Being a Media grant you to not be perceived as a "punk", it's somewhat between Corporate and Fixer, he's the Solo of the "talkative", squeezed between both, he can be a dirty-punk freelance reporter as much as a great TV Host on Network 54.
He benefit from that position of "no man's land" so he's mostly welcome anywhere, in the combat zone as much as in the corporate area, with up& down depending on who he talks to, but he's not as "strictly" chained to a side of the wall, as a Corpo' or a Fixer.
The action also comes when DMS and N54 ends shooting themself to be the first on a scoop (Journalist's gunfight is something I look forward with Media lol), you also have a limited budget depending for who you work and your position in the media Corporation to get some equipement, a media van, paying your fees, and recruiting solos, netrunner, etc... as bodyguard and media-crew.
He's the solo of the RP classes, he's more "open" to each side, but in the end he's just a reporter, so watch your back choomba', you'll hardly have backup, so your reporter team will have to be thinked with wisely, but you'll have more freedom to move in richest and poorer part of Night City.


Corporate:
He's the king of the high life, like a media, you're the king of the blablabla, selling crap to a blind making him believing it's gold, like media, you've a job, a budget, some missions to do for it, but here, you choosed the "classy" guy, so don't think going in the poor side of Night City without a few solos to cover your ass, when people see you, all they see is a big "$", you have a job, so you have money.
You have access to a lot of better goods, equipment, a nice house, well you're a corporate, but in the street, you'll be the one with the bigger target upon you, your head is expensive.
You'll have better relation with the whole corporate/police world, but otherwise you'll have hard time having decent friends out of your golden world.
He's much like the cop, a lot of goods, but he's limited to his "corporate" world, thought he can do whatever he like, but a corporate will have hard time being friend with a combat zone's fixer, unless he gave him good reasons for it.

Fixer:
The Opposite of the Corporate, here, you'll be the king of the dirt, having better facilities to talk with criminal, doing illegal business, you'll be respected in the poor side of the city, but don't think about walking your ass around Corporate Plaza or you'll have some bad surprises.
Just as much as Corporate, you're somewhat in the organized crime, you'll have to extend your business, being able, as corporate to find some goods on black market in a easier way, but a Fixer is the "head", you'll need to hire some solos to take with you to cover your ass, RP classes can fire as much as anyone, but Action classes are the best at it, it's their live, you, your weapon is your tongue, your brain and your business instinct, like the corporate, you have connections with booster gangs, etc... so you'll be able to find back up and support, somewhat like the Nomad.
An Outcast, but having strong connexion with the block he lives in, some kind of lawless corporate.


Oh and I forgot:

Rockerboy:
They're supposed to be some kind of pop-star/leader, and make people love them.
In Cyberpunk 2020 Johnny Silverhand is a badass Rockerboy, I'd say, let them be "neutral", much like Fallout
The classes that you can choose to up differents skills as you'd like, keeping some "rockerboy" cliché", but this one would be for the people wanting to build their own character, without bothering with classes.
with a lil of every skills (a rocker can be a good shooter as much as having good business instinct), that's the only way of putting Rockerboy in a "I'd want to play it" way, more than playing "Guitar Hero : The Rpg"
They can't be better than an action class at shooting, not better than a techie at engineering, not better than a media to talk to the masses (rocker needs media to be exposed), but they can be good in a lot of different domains, and are supposed to be somewhat goofy, so maybe they could attract people in-game with an animation where they play music or whatever, but I doubt the CP2020 definition about them would fit in a good way in Cyberpunk 2077
... Or just do it like Overlord (the game), attract a bunch of guys, and control the riot. lol

Sorry if it was a block-post, but that's the kind of balance I'd like to see in the game if Roles are involved.
Sure, you're free to do whatever you want, but it needs to have + and - so every role give a new "vision" of Night City, and then, from that vision, it's up to you to live your story.
A cop can be a good one or a bad one, a corporate can try to work for a criminal organisation and a fixer for a corporation, but it has to be somewhat challenging, and having good reason to be so, that would be some "orientation" in the kind of gameplay you'd have by choosing a role or another, and then you'd play the story you want, choosing a Neutral/Corpo/Poor start point, as much as in the Pnp, and that wouldn't require that much more work in the end I think.
 
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Not bad, still not the route I would go, which would be to allow multiple roles, so everyone can get a taste of everything, but I definitely like what you have done here.
 
Solid stuff. I feel you're pretty focussed on action solutions and playstyles - Solos and Action Types were often very useless in our Cyberpunk games, since they lacked they skillset to do much more than survive the sharp end until 1.2 way through a campaign. By that point, they had contacts and Streetwise and Expert skills and could contribute more than muscle.

I like your point about Cops being able to carry illegal gear wherever with no issues - that's a real advantage.

Fixers are more than a black market Corporate, with one clear difference: if you kill a Corp, all Hell comes looking for you. If you kill a Fixer, his crew -may- come looking for you, or just say, "That's the game, baby". and move along. That level of support is very different.

It's also worth noting that your descriptions focus on Special Abilities - beyond those, there is nothing really stopping a Cop from getting a jacked-up Tech skillset or a Netrunner from hitting 10 in Thai Kick Boxing or Heavy Weapons.

So from that sense, I'd like to see the Special Abilities act as flavourings, not definitive boundaries.
 
Fixers are more than a black market Corporate, with one clear difference: if you kill a Corp, all Hell comes looking for you. If you kill a Fixer, his crew -may- come looking for you, or just say, "That's the game, baby". and move along. That level of support is very different.

It's also worth noting that your descriptions focus on Special Abilities - beyond those, there is nothing really stopping a Cop from getting a jacked-up Tech skillset or a Netrunner from hitting 10 in Thai Kick Boxing or Heavy Weapons.

So from that sense, I'd like to see the Special Abilities act as flavourings, not definitive boundaries.

Agree for Fixer, but it was to make his role a lil clearer, he's not some kind of corporate, but he's into business, etc... it all depend on how you see the Roles, if you want a classy guy in a building, play a corporate, if you want to play a street dealer, play a Fixer, but in the end they all say shit to random people, hopping to deal their goods.

Well, about the flavouring, that was my point actually, sure a Cop can learn biology, etc... but as "secondary skills"; so he should spent more xp in it (because it's harder for him to learn it), like in the pnp, his "role" skills will bends more towards guns, etc... with a possibility to learn everything (keeping it open, as you said), but, let's say, It'll be harder for a Solo to learn philosophy (not saying a solo can't be a philosophe, but it's not his "natural" ability, philosopher doesn't turn hitman that often lol, but a hitman can turn in a philosopher.), let just have those kind of "archetype" role, just, like you said a "flavor" with different way of playing it (more tech, guns, survival, cop, cyber, etc...), so each role have it's own good side.
I assume the game will play almost the same with everyrole, so it's those bonus that each role can give you who're interesting to thing about IMO

Or, about skills you could make them bends with your character caracteristics, if your character has more INT, he'll learn INT skills easier, etc...
They need to find the right middle for it, if they includes roles.

Anyway, I've not mentioned it, but keep in mind that what i wrote was just "basic" classes, when you start the game, as I said you should be able to go and do whatever you want (GTA style), even hacking if you're not a Runner, but you'd have some advantage here and there, more interesting if there is a Coop mode of some sort, each player can have an important role, and, for example, if you need a techie, since the gameplay is open, if one of your, let's say, nomad or solo has some tech skills aviable, he'll be able to fix things out (but, of course, not at good as a techie would do)
 
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Not bad, still not the route I would go, which would be to allow multiple roles, so everyone can get a taste of everything, but I definitely like what you have done here.

Thanks, I tried to flesh out the most important aspect of each role.
Following my idea, I think the multiple role could fit for the Rockerboy, since playing in a band isn't very "video game" friendly lol
IMO the Rockerboy is the "poster boy" of the Cyberpunk lore, so having him being able to have a step in different role could be nice, but without being specialized in it, some kind of "cyberpunk badass", making him start with a lot of beauty skills, etc... and then you'd be free to upgrade whatever skills you want.
 
Rockerboy is the "poster boy" of the Cyberpunk lore, so having him being able to have a step in different role could be nice, but without being specialized in it, some kind of "cyberpunk badass", .

I gotta say, I have never once understood this.... as they are actually pretty rare in the genre.... and when they do show up they are never as a main character (with the exception of Priss from BGC, who was definitely more of a solo) but as a supporting character or love interest, Ellen Aim from Streets of Fire, Juliette Lewis's character from Strange Days....

It's just kind of wierd to me...

In fact, the only "cyberpunk" kinda genre thing I can think of where rockers were the focus was the animated film Rock And Rule...
 
http://www.amazon.ca/Little-Heroes-Norman-Spinrad/dp/0586203621

"Spinrad mined media hype and manipulation to fine effect in his early novel, Bug Jack Barron. Now 18 years later, he has another go with this near future story of the conglomerate MUZIK's desire to substitute APs (artificial personalities) for its troublesome rock stars. Voxbox artist Sally Genaro and graphics whiz Bobby Rubin create a sensation called Red Jack, thanks to prodding from Glorianna O'Toole, "The Crazy Old Lady of Rock and Roll" and to the stimulation of the zap, a small electric device that mimics the effects of hallucinogens. What they don't anticipate is the co-opting of Jack's rebel stance by the Reality Liberation Front, an anarchist computer commune churning out programs to bilk money machines, fix tax records, etc. As with much of Spinrad's work, the strong initial impact is vitiated by the excessive length, repetition and crudeness of the novel as a whole. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Trilogy

"Smiling" Rick Crandall is the leader of the SA is a charismatic American preacher/televangelist.
On the book jacket of the 2012 rerelease, William Gibson calls Shirley "cyberpunk's patient zero."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_Sky Invisible aliens in a tiny flying saucer come to Earth looking for heroin. They land on top of a New York apartment inhabited by a drug dealer and her female, androgynous, bisexual nymphomaniac lover, a fashion model.


Those are the sources for Rockerboy R.Tal was using. Not what most people think of when they think of Cyberpunk now, but in the 80s, music was an important part of New Wave and Techno, which were also part of Cyberpunk.

R. Tal wanted to encapsulate the power and potency of entertainment in pop culture, I think. Musicians, fashion models, actors, reporters.

The Rockerboy and the Media do that.

It's only later that we shrank Cyberpunk to guns and heists and machine arms. Originally, it was about changing the world and technology as idea.
 
http://www.amazon.ca/Little-Heroes-Norman-Spinrad/dp/0586203621

"Spinrad mined media hype and manipulation to fine effect in his early novel, Bug Jack Barron. Now 18 years later, he has another go with this near future story of the conglomerate MUZIK's desire to substitute APs (artificial personalities) for its troublesome rock stars. Voxbox artist Sally Genaro and graphics whiz Bobby Rubin create a sensation called Red Jack, thanks to prodding from Glorianna O'Toole, "The Crazy Old Lady of Rock and Roll" and to the stimulation of the zap, a small electric device that mimics the effects of hallucinogens. What they don't anticipate is the co-opting of Jack's rebel stance by the Reality Liberation Front, an anarchist computer commune churning out programs to bilk money machines, fix tax records, etc. As with much of Spinrad's work, the strong initial impact is vitiated by the excessive length, repetition and crudeness of the novel as a whole. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Trilogy

"Smiling" Rick Crandall is the leader of the SA is a charismatic American preacher/televangelist.
On the book jacket of the 2012 rerelease, William Gibson calls Shirley "cyberpunk's patient zero."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_Sky Invisible aliens in a tiny flying saucer come to Earth looking for heroin. They land on top of a New York apartment inhabited by a drug dealer and her female, androgynous, bisexual nymphomaniac lover, a fashion model.


Those are the sources for Rockerboy R.Tal was using. Not what most people think of when they think of Cyberpunk now, but in the 80s, music was an important part of New Wave and Techno, which were also part of Cyberpunk.

R. Tal wanted to encapsulate the power and potency of entertainment in pop culture, I think. Musicians, fashion models, actors, reporters.

The Rockerboy and the Media do that.

It's only later that we shrank Cyberpunk to guns and heists and machine arms. Originally, it was about changing the world and technology as idea.

My most well succeeded scenario was with a group of media (only media, no other roles).. A reporter, a cameramen... They didn't (ocasionally they had their but kicked) , but they run a lot, bribed and had to use sweet talk.
 
http://www.amazon.ca/Little-Heroes-Norman-Spinrad/dp/0586203621

"Spinrad mined media hype and manipulation to fine effect in his early novel, Bug Jack Barron. Now 18 years later, he has another go with this near future story of the conglomerate MUZIK's desire to substitute APs (artificial personalities) for its troublesome rock stars. Voxbox artist Sally Genaro and graphics whiz Bobby Rubin create a sensation called Red Jack, thanks to prodding from Glorianna O'Toole, "The Crazy Old Lady of Rock and Roll" and to the stimulation of the zap, a small electric device that mimics the effects of hallucinogens. What they don't anticipate is the co-opting of Jack's rebel stance by the Reality Liberation Front, an anarchist computer commune churning out programs to bilk money machines, fix tax records, etc. As with much of Spinrad's work, the strong initial impact is vitiated by the excessive length, repetition and crudeness of the novel as a whole. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Trilogy

"Smiling" Rick Crandall is the leader of the SA is a charismatic American preacher/televangelist.
On the book jacket of the 2012 rerelease, William Gibson calls Shirley "cyberpunk's patient zero."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_Sky Invisible aliens in a tiny flying saucer come to Earth looking for heroin. They land on top of a New York apartment inhabited by a drug dealer and her female, androgynous, bisexual nymphomaniac lover, a fashion model.


Those are the sources for Rockerboy R.Tal was using. Not what most people think of when they think of Cyberpunk now, but in the 80s, music was an important part of New Wave and Techno, which were also part of Cyberpunk.

R. Tal wanted to encapsulate the power and potency of entertainment in pop culture, I think. Musicians, fashion models, actors, reporters.

The Rockerboy and the Media do that.

It's only later that we shrank Cyberpunk to guns and heists and machine arms. Originally, it was about changing the world and technology as idea.

Thanks for the recommendations ;)
 
http://www.amazon.ca/Little-Heroes-Norman-Spinrad/dp/0586203621

"Spinrad mined media hype and manipulation to fine effect in his early novel, Bug Jack Barron. Now 18 years later, he has another go with this near future story of the conglomerate MUZIK's desire to substitute APs (artificial personalities) for its troublesome rock stars. Voxbox artist Sally Genaro and graphics whiz Bobby Rubin create a sensation called Red Jack, thanks to prodding from Glorianna O'Toole, "The Crazy Old Lady of Rock and Roll" and to the stimulation of the zap, a small electric device that mimics the effects of hallucinogens. What they don't anticipate is the co-opting of Jack's rebel stance by the Reality Liberation Front, an anarchist computer commune churning out programs to bilk money machines, fix tax records, etc. As with much of Spinrad's work, the strong initial impact is vitiated by the excessive length, repetition and crudeness of the novel as a whole. "

Those are the sources for Rockerboy R.Tal was using. Not what most people think of when they think of Cyberpunk now, but in the 80s, music was an important part of New Wave and Techno, which were also part of Cyberpunk.

R. Tal wanted to encapsulate the power and potency of entertainment in pop culture, I think. Musicians, fashion models, actors, reporters.

The Rockerboy and the Media do that.

It's only later that we shrank Cyberpunk to guns and heists and machine arms. Originally, it was about changing the world and technology as idea.

Litlles Heroes by Norman Spirad is honnestly a must read! (this and the novel book "The plague years", go read them!)
One of the best Cyberpunk book i've ever read (and as i said it earlier, Spinrad is way better than Gibson when it comes to describe some close-future urban dystopia, it's so ugly, raw and.... close to reality with homeless bums, uneducated peoples among the ultra-rich ones, I mean, if some of you has allready see a squat, you'll laught at how much "this is it" lol)

Sure there isn't much cybernetic (Spinrad talk more about the human than technology, so the world keeps being "2020", not over-the-top cybernetics, etc...), but the world he describe is really something interesting, and I'd say his vision of the poor quarter of the town is definately what inpired the Cyberpunk 2020 Combat Zone, just read it and you'll see what I mean, personnally it helped me a lot to visualize a chaotic poor block, filled with crazies, crackhead and rapists.
If you can go ahead of the cheesy rock'n roll vibe, the book is still really on-point with all the mainstream music scene, and the whole "rape" of the culture, with crappy remakes, etc...
You could totally imagine Lady Gaga or Kanye West in the book instead of Red Jack or Cyborg Sally, a bunch of crappy cyber-star, non-existent, juste here to fill the blank in the sheeps brain and keeping the money flowing to the label.
I recomend it, seriously.

And, also, It's worth reading, just for the "Paco Monaco" character, he's one hell of a crackhead freak lol
♫ Mucho Muchacho! Y Tu Madre Tambien! ♫


I gotta say, I have never once understood this.... as they are actually pretty rare in the genre.... and when they do show up they are never as a main character (with the exception of Priss from BGC, who was definitely more of a solo) but as a supporting character or love interest, Ellen Aim from Streets of Fire, Juliette Lewis's character from Strange Days....

It's just kind of wierd to me...

In fact, the only "cyberpunk" kinda genre thing I can think of where rockers were the focus was the animated film Rock And Rule...

Id say, it depend on how you see a "Rockerboy", if you imagine a guy with his guitar, the "Rock star" cliché, sure it'll look awkward.
For me, the Rockeboy is the nobody guy.
I mean a solo, a netrunner, a techie, a media, etc... they all have a career, they're trapped in their skills set, where a Rockerboy is somewhat the "free" role kind, sure you're supposed to play music originally, but in the end, you're able to do whatever you want, there is nothing really "blocking" you in term of "career".
Cyberpunk is about a bunch of rebels futuristic guys, with a rock'n roll vibe, I'd say it fits the Rockerboy essence more "directly" than other roles, just look at Johnny Silverhand, I mean, he was the CP2020 "movie star", even if he's a cheesy glam-rock guy, he was the poster boy of the game back then.

As Rockerboy, we could say that the artist girl in Hardware is somewhat a Rockergirl, Edisson Carter in Max Headroom, is a mix between a media with the attitude of a Rockerboy, etc...
I think a Rockerboy is all about "Attitude" more than playing guitar, or being the leader of a cult.
It's a charismatic guy with attitude that peoples would tend to follow, some kind of "Rock'n roll Neo", the "80s action movie hero" kind of
 
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OK, LOT a reading to get up to date on this thread, so excuse me if this reply is a bit disjointed.

Actually a competent real-life bodyguard has a LOT of skills besides shooting at stuff. That's what makes most gun-bunnies lousy bodyguards.

Currently in the USA a Cop can't just "take" someones car, they can stop it and ASK the owner to let them use it. Of course the way most cops "ask" anything sure sounds like an order to most people ;)
Sure "bad" (or "good") cops exist, and while they may not get fired they'll wind up as Evidence Custodian in the sub-sub-basement of the police station. And being a cop doesn't make you immune to being being arrested (falsely or not) and subject to "The Treatment". In fact it's usually worse for another cop because the doughnut eaters on the take REALLY hate anyone that upsets the apple cart.

The "problem" is CP2020 is designed for multi-player cooperative play so the classes are "intentionally" designed to be "the best" one aspect or another of the game. CDCR's can't simply import the book classes into a single-player game and have anything even remotely playable ... unless they code what is in essence ten (one for each class) different games into one package. Not very practical, likely, or cost-effective.

It's only later that we shrank Cyberpunk to guns and heists and machine arms. Originally, it was about changing the world ...
Exactly.
While I certainly don't expect to play "The Warden" from Dragons Age: Origins in CP2077 I do hope the main emphasis of the game is "choices and consequences" rather then guns and cyberware.

Id say, it depend on how you see a "Rockerboy"...
I think a Rockerboy is all about "Attitude" more than playing guitar, or being the leader of a cult.
It's a charismatic guy with attitude that peoples would tend to follow, some kind of "Rock'n roll Neo", the "80s action movie hero" kind of

Actually I think of the Rockerboy this way:
ALL the other classes/roles deal with the world "as is", the Rockerboy is the one and only class who has the ability to try to change it to "as should be".
They're the idealist on a moral crusade, not just to survive and profit, but "improve" the world. Now their specific ideas on "improve" are open to WIDE interpretation :)
 
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Well when talking about balance I'd look this other way around. Are the roles balanced doesn't really matter as long as each role has way to progress past all main encounters (don't see why you should be able to pull of every side missions if some are designed for specific roles / builds).

But rather make sure that encounters have enough ways to do them. So you can bribe/talk/sneak/shoot/hack/report/inspect your way past'em.
Some encounters could have more options than others, same with roles some having more options. Just make sure you don't end up for example with media that has only option going in shooting and it might turn out impossibly hard for that role.
 
But rather make sure that encounters have enough ways to do them. So you can bribe/talk/sneak/shoot/hack/report/inspect your way past'em.

That requires them to write, code, incorporate, and debug each option, and the probability of errors increases geometrically when you're talking multiple options.
That's why 95% of games have at most three optional ways to to complete encounters.
It's not that it can't be done, it just can't be done within a reasonable development time/budget.
 
I don't really see the Solo as a brainless gun for hire, like the action heroes of 80s movies ^^
I see them more like jack of all trades. I mean you could be a brainless soldier, maxing every combat skill and knowing nearly nothing else, but, you can also be a character who's good in combat but also know his ways around things, with Expert skills, Interrogation, Persuasion, Streetwise, Electronics, ... Todays CIA's NCS operatives are probably great at kicking ass, but are also probably very intelligent and have a lot of other skills than combat-related ones, and I'd consider them Solos.
For me Solos are not only gun for hire, they represent a much wider spectrum of characters, military, bodyguard, spies, bounty hunters, ... not just mindless guys with guns.
Just like suhiir said "Actually a competent real-life bodyguard has a LOT of skills besides shooting at stuff. That's what makes most gun-bunnies lousy bodyguards".

So yeah, just my point of view :)
 
Actually most CIA guys are lousy at butt kicking. Only in Hollywood are those guys/gals crack shots.
However most are pretty decent detectives and quite skilled at sifting thru mountains of data for needles.
 
Actually most CIA guys are lousy at butt kicking. Only in Hollywood are those guys/gals crack shots.
However most are pretty decent detectives and quite skilled at sifting thru mountains of data for needles.

Hmmm... I guess I watched too many hollywood movies. But when I hear Solo, I see John Reese from Person of Interest (great serie btw) ^^

Justin bieber on a moral crusade to save the world commanding a stampede of 15 years old girls?

Hahaha! That'd be a funny side quest, like stop Justin Bieber from polluting music by exterminating him
 
Hmmm... I guess I watched too many hollywood movies. But when I hear Solo, I see John Reese from Person of Interest (great serie btw) ^^

Yep, that's a classic example of the Solo. I mean, there are many varieties and plenty are gun-thugs, too, although those aren't really a "Solo" in the sense of the lone professional, but more mercs and guards.

Reese from PoI is one. Reese from Terminator is another. Alice in Resident Evil is another. Morgan Blackhand is the prototype of the US Solo. John Rambo would be another. Codename 47 is yet another. Robin Hood still another.

Basically, any skilled combat professional, typically operating freelance, alone or part of a small team, is your Solo.
 
Yep, that's a classic example of the Solo. I mean, there are many varieties and plenty are gun-thugs, too, although those aren't really a "Solo" in the sense of the lone professional, but more mercs and guards.

Reese from PoI is one. Reese from Terminator is another. Alice in Resident Evil is another. Morgan Blackhand is the prototype of the US Solo. John Rambo would be another. Codename 47 is yet another. Robin Hood still another.

Basically, any skilled combat professional, typically operating freelance, alone or part of a small team, is your Solo.

Yep, so I don't agree with how Maelcom404 pictures them, he despises them... It breaks my heart...
Solos are just great (the other roles are great too eh, I'm not a Solo-only fanboy ;) )
 
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