Romances: Disparity in quality and quantity

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So having come back to the game with more tempered expectations my impressions are much more positive than they initially were. There’s way more interesting characters in the city than I realised (they got buried under all the gigs in my first playthrough), I’m used to the car feel to the point it’s now fun, the gameplay is good, the city looks great, rebel path is a banger of a track, animations are amazing...

However one thing still sticks out as glaringly bad, which is how unbalanced in content and depth the romances are. Both female romances are introduced early, main plot integral, also have lengthy side quests on top of their already substantial main quest content and generally feel like a presence through the whole game. They stand up to the best BioWare romances.

The male options, on the other hand, feel like an afterthought. Neither are involved in the main quest and instead of having extra side content to compensate, they have notably less.

River has three quests in act 2 (including his romance culmination) after which he is basically a non-entity. While I like the content he has, it’s only slightly more content than Meredith. It’s only the fact you can call him at the end that makes him a romance by the games standards, but he doesn’t feel like a big part of V’s life or story at all.

Then there’s Kerry, introduced after 90% of the main plot is done and only if you let Johnny take control of your body three times, after which you get three quests with him where you aren’t even playing as V (so build no connection). Then you get two short quests following him around as he enacts petty revenge schemes. Then his romance culmination. He’s like Zevran, a character already largely criticised by gay men, but with 20% of the content. Getting into a personal rant, as a gay man, I would have much, much preferred River and found his romance scene a lot more emotionally satisfying and refreshing. Kerry feels like the stale kinky hedonist bi guy cliche that further props up the stereotype that gay men don't desire wholesome romance and family values. This has been complained about ad naeseum in the gay pop culture community. I wouldn't change a thing with River's romance scene, whereas I actively felt uncomfortable with Kerry's.

For contrast: Panam is directly involved in 11 quests spread over the game, including main quests. Judy is in 10, including main, spread over the game. Compare this with River's three sidequests and Kerry's three sidequests (discounting the ones where you play as Johnny). That's a HUGE disparity. This isn't even getting into the endings, where Panam and Judy both have positive endings in Nomad, whereas River and Kerry break up with you. Their best ending is Sun, where V still acts hostile and closed off from them.

I understand that the biggest demographic is straight males and if a game has a set protagonist with set sexuality, fair play. Nothing wrong this that. The problem is when it’s advertised as a malleable protagonist with equality of romance content and then doesn't deliver. I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue that Kerry isn’t much weaker in content and relationship building (and character, but that’s personal taste) than all the other options (especially Judy and Panam) and that straight women and gay men weren’t done dirty here.

What’s kind of baffling is that the main plot already has an attractive male character (who you even seem to flirt with at times) with Takemura and then River would have been easy to weave into the main plot as a police detective. Going forward, River is an easy fix; just add more content. Even new texts where you can update him on the main quest would make a huge difference. Kerry is much more difficult, I’d honestly suggest just adding in an alternate m/m option in future content or, taking the more efficient route, take the kind-of-bi River and just make him fully bi. If he’ll romance you with a big wang, a man voice and being male identifying I don’t think it’s a stretch he’d be down for a pretty boy V he feels emotionally connected to seeing as his sexuality seems defined solely by physical femininity. It seems like a small thing in the grand scheme of things, but I it’s evident by now that getting players to feel connected to solid romances and companion characters can elevate a game to classic status and while Judy and Panam are having a good run at that, anyone wanting a male romance is left out in the cold in that regard. I hope this is considered for future content.
 
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I understand your point and would agree that some improvement should be implemented. On the other hand I`m also fine with a fact that not all romances have to be a reflection of the other - I mean they have different storyline (some are better, some are worse but its hard to keep the same standard in every quest), different characters with different atributes which are perceived by players differently, and various outcomes during the endings. Problem with romances is that its impossible to please everyone. In general you would romance with a person you truly connect with but thats hard to achieve in a games where you usually have one or couple options because of its limitation.
 

Guest 3847602

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He’s like Zevran, a character already largely criticised by gay men, but with 20% of the content.
Out of curiosity, what was wrong with Zevran? Kinky hedonist bi guy cliche or something else?
 
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Guest 4412420

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I agree about the disparity in content between the romances and how the ladies feel favored as characters overall.

taking the more efficient route, take the kind-of-bi River and just make him fully bi.
One of the developers said that they're not going to change character's sexualities in response to people complaining about Judy not being bi. If they're not going to do that with Judy (which is good) I don't think they'll do it with River either.
 
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Yes, this. Also Kerry is the only romance option that you can't even flirt with and he shows zero interest in romance with V, but with Panam you have to actively avoid all flirts. And to start his romance V is forced to give body to Johnny where you will be forced in sexual/romance acts with women.
 
Yes, this. Also Kerry is the only romance option that you can't even flirt with and he shows zero interest in romance with V, but with Panam you have to actively avoid all flirts. And to start his romance V is forced to give body to Johnny where you will be forced in sexual/romance acts with women.

I didn't put this in the OP because it was already long, but another criticism is that River has like, FIVE points where you can reject him, even after you've slept together. Meanwhile I avoided all explicit flirting with Panam and tried to be friends and still somehow got ninjamanced. Suddenly she was texting me to suggest we had a thing and the only responses available were to go along with it. Had to reload and brutally tell her I was only doing her quest for money. Just weird when they clearly thought about that for some romances but not others.
 
Out of curiosity, what was wrong with Zevran? Kinky hedonist bi guy cliche or something else?

Zevran, like Kerry, not only falls into this stereotype, but they're both also morally ambiguous characters compared to their straight counterparts (who are both very wholesome and morally good). To get approval with Zevran you have to listen to him go into detail about how he likes killing people and then go along with it like you're into it. It's very hard to roleplay a 'good' character and get approval with him. Fine if he was one of a couple of options, but not great when he's the ONLY option.
 
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Couldn't agree more. Even the "best" ending catered too the female romance options. Which makes it even worse.

Though I don't think Cd project originally intended it to end up that way. My guess is that they developed the female romances options first, then simply ran out of time. (Not that that's a good excuse.)

And Takemura.. He was such a tease of what could have ended up being a very interesting romance. River was ok but like you said just an afterthought.
 
I absolutely agree about the disparity in content between the romances and how obviously Judy and Panam are favored as characters overall. Would be nice if they added some content to make them feel more equal but I doubt they will.


Maybe I just misunderstood your point but it sounds like you're suggesting scrapping Kerry's romance for possible future content and give m/m a brand new one? Don't you think it would be unfair for people who do like Kerry and his romance?


One of the developers said that they're not going to change character's sexualities in response to people complaining about Judy not being bi. If they're not going to do that with Judy (which is good) I don't think they'll do it with River either.


I don't suggest scrapping Kerry but adding someone new (or adding a m/m romance to an existing character) as an alternative to Kerry. As for the Judy thing, Judy is explicitly stated already to be a lesbian. With River and Panam, neither are exactly 100% straight, as already described. I don't see why if River is indifferent to your genitals, voice, identity, mannerisms etc he's so hung up on whether you have boobs or not. A male V could have a thicc butt and a pretty face, which covers most of what apparently dictates his attraction. Just given the vanilla romance constraints on them and the already limited options it feels arbitrary, confusing and silly that they aren't just bi, especially in a world where your physical body is totally malleable.
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I understand your point and would agree that some improvement should be implemented. On the other hand I`m also fine with a fact that not all romances have to be a reflection of the other - I mean they have different storyline (some are better, some are worse but its hard to keep the same standard in every quest), different characters with different atributes which are perceived by players differently, and various outcomes during the endings. Problem with romances is that its impossible to please everyone. In general you would romance with a person you truly connect with but thats hard to achieve in a games where you usually have one or couple options because of its limitation.

I sort of agree, but one of my main points outside of personal preference is a huge disparity in amount of content which isn't really subjective. Kerry and River have much, much less content than the girls and neither are part of the main quest when this should have been thought about during pre-production. Also, as above, you meet Kerry when the game is almost done. They really couldn't have introduced him in act 2?

Regarding romance personalities being diverse, I agree in a game with multiple options for every sexuality. But in a game with one option for anyone not bi I do think you've gotta go with something 'safer'. Kerry is marmite with no alternative for people who hate marmite. You have to go along with all his indulgent, destructive shenanigens and then have fetishy choke-sex with him, which isn't good when it's the only option gay men have. River is a hunky, sweet guy who's trying to do the right thing in a corrupt system. His appeal is more widespread.
 
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Guest 4412420

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I don't suggest scrapping Kerry but adding someone new (or adding a m/m romance to an existing character) as an alternative to Kerry.
That's fair.

And I agree that the way Panam and River's romances are handled is pretty confusing and that calling them straight doesn't feel 100% accurate because V's pronouns, and I guess gender identity, are tied to their voice and both work for Panam and River. What I meant by referencing the developer's comment is that it's best not to get your hopes up.
 
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Guest 4412420

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Kerry honestly got done the worst. Introduced at the end of the game, requires you to let Johnny joyride your body, which in turn requires you to take pills that you've been told will kill you faster. What the fuck?

Edit: I guess it's a slight comfort that those pills are meaningless. Cause if there were some bad consequences for taking them that would have screwed people who wanted to romance Kerry even more.
 
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Personally I am fine with the romances. I have never seen any game--literally no one--where romance is portrayed like real-life one (due being a married woman I do know, lol).

If anything I would like to have more options to romance and as the user above said, this is not a dating simulator.
 
Edit: I guess it's a slight comfort that those pills are meaningless. Cause if there were some bad consequences for taking them that would have screwed people who wanted to romance Kerry even more.
It's more that, if you're trying to role play and are in to the character, there are a million reasons you would never touch the red pills. It's true that mechanically they were just "press X to Johnny" instead of noticeably doing what Misty said they would, but I do think that the Johnny end is the culmination of the pills.
As in, the fact that you show up in Mikoshi as Johnny, I kind of took as confirmation that the last pill popped wasn't just giving Johnny a ride -- it was crossing the threshold of being more Johnny than V.
 
I disagree with the concept that all romances should be shoehorned into the narrative based mostly on the idea that all romances must follow equal game structure.

Not every romanceable character should be part of the MQ
Not every romanceable charachter should fit into the endings in the same way
Not every romanceable character should be equally wholesome
Not every romanceable character should be guaranteed to be met by the player.

romance options should spring naturally from the actions of the characters, they should offer different perspectives, and types, some can be characters you find only doing certain things. And the relationships should make sense within the context of the character of the LI.


Now, I agree some LIs could be better executed, or get more time, but romance is not about comparisons to others. Judge each romance on its own merits, not things like how much MQ time another story gets, or what type of person another character is.

Kerry is Kerry, if you don't like him, ignore him. Don't say Kerry should be a different person because I don't like him. The same for Pan am. It would make no sense to demand panam be a calm measured lady who loves NC.

People in pan am thread feel that being a MQ charachter wastes most of your time with panam doing plot related stuff and action, instead of getting to know the charachter. Time on camera does not always translate to better romance.


Instead of focusing on what aboutism, focus instead on what would have allowed XYZ relationship to develop better. IMO of course
 
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