Romances: Disparity in quality and quantity

[Valer48]

I would just say that, regardless of the gameplay or bugs, CDPR somehow found a way to take in-game romances a step further...whether it's the characters or the voice acting I'm not sure and opinionswill differ, but there's a reason why the romance threads here are the most viewed and commented on.

I don't know that future DLC will address romances, but clearly a good number of players saw what was possible with Judy or Panam and hopefully this can be fleshed out more with some of the other characters.

Definitely not a dating Sim, though I think what would have been better than life paths that you choose at the start that have little impact on the game, it seems like the story should have allowed you to choose a path of survival, becoming a legend, or love. Either ways, it's not 100% fulfilling but they definitely did a few things right in this area.

 

[SirKraeutereule]

In my honest opinion... I romanced Kerry myself and his character is actually REALLY well developed and established through flashbacks, splitters, people in the city, other sources (like the net) and Johnny. His story isn't linear, it's scattered throughout act 1-3 until you finally meet him at the end of act 3. By that point you already have a very good picture of him. Out of all four LI I would say only Judy is better developed than him.

However, the romance is another story, I agree. The thing most people have a problem with I guess is that his personal jobs are just REALLY short. Like "they haven't even began and they are already over"-short, thus feeling as if you don't really spend enough personal time with him. To top it off you can't even flirt with him like you can with Panam so the kissing scene comes out of nowhere. Everything afterwards is really well done, like the boat and sex scene, the messages and the whole ending scene (which was when I fell hard for him lol). But everything before that could add a little bit more "wooing" (don't know if that is the correct word) in general.

Regarding River... I can only judge his character because I never played a female V thus never romanced him. But I agree that he is in need of more story in general. For me he is only a little bit less developed than Panam because you don't spend as much time with him as with her. It's really a shame because he seems like a great guy and his jobs were great!

 

[Alt-Mikoshi]

But also no one is asking for the focus to be exclusively on dating. They're just asking why/if anyone else noticed that certain sexualities felt like afterthoughts or were tacked on. It tends to be that people who romanced Panam or Judy like the game a lot more than people who didn't, so it seems to make a difference. Could be coincidence, but it comes up a lot.

Give me an objective reason to conclude that; neither of all the relationships were fleshed enough nor any reasonable person would find deep development given how in-lore, V's lifespan is extremely limited. Would be a break of narrative to have V with a very deep and long relationship development given the different time-frames of each relationship in relation to her condition and degeneration.

 

[Guest 4412420]

Give me an objective reason to conclude that; neither of all the relationships were fleshed enough nor any reasonable person would find deep development given how in-lore, V's lifespan is extremely limited. Would be a break of narrative to have V with a very deep and long relationship development given the different time-frames of each relationship in relation to her condition and degeneration.

I don't think you get what people are saying. No one's asking for romances to be incredibly deep and realistic. All (aside from a few other points op made) people in this thread are saying is that they wish that Kerry's and River's romances were on par with Judy's and Panam's in terms of content. That's it.

 

[Alt-Mikoshi]

I don't think you get what people are saying. No one's asking for romances to be incredibly deep and realistic. All (aside from a few other points op made) people in this thread are saying is that they wish that Kerry's and River's romances were on par with Judy's and Panam's in terms of content. That's it.

And I ask, how they aren't?

 

[rippercityransom]

Give me an objective reason to conclude that; neither of all the relationships were fleshed enough nor any reasonable person would find deep development given how in-lore, V's lifespan is extremely limited. Would be a break of narrative to have V with a very deep and long relationship development given the different time-frames of each relationship in relation to her condition and degeneration.

Objective reason to conclude what? That two of the LIs felt tacked on or that people who romanced the girls tend to have a more positive experience with the game? Some of this will be a repeat of conversations in the endings thread that's been talked to death (sorry Ayinde, you're probably sick of seeing it )

The first one is mostly numbers, the girls are main story and unavoidable. There's screenshots someone posted on another thread that had a breakdown of how much content each of the LIs had and Judy and Panam had very nearly double what River and Kerry did. River is involved in only three quests, from introduction to conclusion of his arc. People that didn't want to romance him felt sketched out by how quickly he comes onto you because they gave him almost no development compared to the way they fleshed out Panam's over several incidents. The "rely on your friends/get a happy tarot card" ending is exclusive to Panam/Judy. V shows up in a Judy voicemail and no one else's. The dudes share their "good" ending voicemails with the Devil ending, which objectively might not mean much but can be interpreted as not really a great feeling. No one is asking for wedding bells and white picket fences, just wondering why girls/boys weren't balanced more in Vs short time with them.

If you're only counting "did everyone get a raunchy sex scene? yes? then we're golden." then yeah everyone is given exactly the same, but from this thread and others that's not what they thought they were getting into.

 

[Guest 4412420]

And I ask, how they aren't?

I can only speak for Kerry's romance and what I saw of Judy's and Panam's.

Judy's romance: V can get a kiss on the cheek at the end of Ex Factor, the phone call that starts Pyramid Song quest has flirty dialogue, the quest itself also has quite a bit of romance related dialogue which makes up for the lack of it in the previous quests. After finishing Judy's questline there's a unique romance specific greeting for when you visit/call her. There's also one romance specific dialogue option when you call/visit her too.

Panam's romance: there's a suggestive dialogue even before her personal questline begins, then during her questline you can flirt with her several times which helps to make the romance feel like it's developing. After completing her story there's one romance specific dialogue when you call/visit her.

Kerry's romance: no dialogue whatsoever for V to express his interest in Kerry. The first romantic interaction can be V kissing him which as @SirKraeutereule pointed out comes out of nowhere because V can't flirt with him at all in previous quests. During Boat Drinks even after kissing Kerry in the quest prior there's no dialogue option to say anything flirty or affectionate. There's only one at the end in which V can commit to the relationship. There's no unique romance dialogue option for Kerry when you call or visit him.

 

[Myajha]

I really agree with the OP. Though I'll toss another wrench in the gears.

All the romances are meaningless except for Judy in the end. She's the only one that gets her own endings.

That and the fact that after the "romance" is done, it's pretty much dropped from the game until the ending.

That said, it's a shame that River is barely developed and you're supposed to somehow connect with him. Panam should be bi-sexual to be honest to make more sense of the Nomad ending, but we're not allowed to talk about that here. Judy is fully developed and applies to the ending. Kerry is fully developed, but his romance comes out of friggin' no where.

So what we got is Judy who plays important parts in the endings, but only if you're female. Fully developed character and interesting romance, with some tidbits tossed in afterward, but practically is forgotten about until the epilogues.

Panam plays an important part in the endings, which doesn't really require a romance, but is better as a male. Fully developed character and interesting romance, but basically worthless.

River, underdeveloped character, and underdeveloped romance, that comes practically out of no where. Romance is "meh" and plays zero part in the endings.

Kerry, fully developed character, and underdeveloped romance, that comes practically out of no where. Romance is "meh" and plays zero part in the endings.

 

[Valer48]

Objective reason to conclude what? That two of the LIs felt tacked on or that people who romanced the girls tend to have a more positive experience with the game? Some of this will be a repeat of conversations in the endings thread that's been talked to death (sorry Ayinde, you're probably sick of seeing it )

The first one is mostly numbers, the girls are main story and unavoidable. There's screenshots someone posted on another thread that had a breakdown of how much content each of the LIs had and Judy and Panam had very nearly double what River and Kerry did. River is involved in only three quests, from introduction to conclusion of his arc. People that didn't want to romance him felt sketched out by how quickly he comes onto you because they gave him almost no development compared to the way they fleshed out Panam's over several incidents. The "rely on your friends/get a happy tarot card" ending is exclusive to Panam/Judy. V shows up in a Judy voicemail and no one else's. The dudes share their "good" ending voicemails with the Devil ending, which objectively might not mean much but can be interpreted as not really a great feeling. No one is asking for wedding bells and white picket fences, just wondering why girls/boys weren't balanced more in Vs short time with them.

If you're only counting "did everyone get a raunchy sex scene? yes? then we're golden." then yeah everyone is given exactly the same, but from this thread and others that's not what they thought they were getting into.

I don't think you get what people are saying. No one's asking for romances to be incredibly deep and realistic. All (aside from a few other points op made) people in this thread are saying is that they wish that Kerry's and River's romances were on par with Judy's and Panam's in terms of content. That's it.

My 2 cents, and I want to be mindful of the forum rules, but whomever this person is I've had a few run-ins already and they all turn unnecessary confrontational. I would hope that most people on this forum would be supportive of one another and voice their criticism constructively without being overly aggressive. I feel you're spot-on with your assessment and don't need to justify your thoughts or perspective to anyone. If I felt differently, I still don't see any need to endlessly question you on why just to make you feel wrong.

Hopefully future DLC will expand on this aspect of the game so everyone feels well represented and loved!

 

[rippercityransom]

I can only speak for Kerry's romance and what I saw of Judy's and Panam's.

Judy's romance: when scanning around Judy's apartment Johnny says that Judy makes goo goo eyes at V and that it makes V feel all mushy inside, there's flirty dialogue throughout Pyramid's Song, V sounds pretty affectionate.

Johnny does something similar for River, but it came out of absolutely nothing. You're leaving a pretty heavy scene and concerned about a child murderer and Johnny just goes "yo, this guy's trying to BANG YOU." It was jarring, even as someone that was pursuing the River route.

 

[Alt-Mikoshi]

Objective reason to conclude what? That two of the LIs felt tacked on or that people who romanced the girls tend to have a more positive experience with the game? Some of this will be a repeat of conversations in the endings thread that's been talked to death (sorry Ayinde, you're probably sick of seeing it )

The first one is mostly numbers, the girls are main story and unavoidable. There's screenshots someone posted on another thread that had a breakdown of how much content each of the LIs had and Judy and Panam had very nearly double what River and Kerry did. River is involved in only three quests, from introduction to conclusion of his arc. People that didn't want to romance him felt sketched out by how quickly he comes onto you because they gave him almost no development compared to the way they fleshed out Panam's over several incidents. The "rely on your friends/get a happy tarot card" ending is exclusive to Panam/Judy. V shows up in a Judy voicemail and no one else's. The dudes share their "good" ending voicemails with the Devil ending, which objectively might not mean much but can be interpreted as not really a great feeling. No one is asking for wedding bells and white picket fences, just wondering why girls/boys weren't balanced more in Vs short time with them.

If you're only counting "did everyone get a raunchy sex scene? yes? then we're golden." then yeah everyone is given exactly the same, but from this thread and others that's not what they thought they were getting into.

Idk, I feel it is organic in how it happens given not all relationships develop the same nor all people need a lot of words to convey feeling. I do not expect arbitrary development when the narrative is and can be different due the character's traits. My main issue is that peeps here seem to want equal outcome with very different routes and personalities. What makes love in real life so interesting is that sometimes you "know" someone is for you without excessive development, sometimes it takes years and years to develop, why must a game deviate from reality in that regard just because some arbitrary criteria on how much a relationship should take to develop?

 

[rippercityransom]

Idk, I feel it is organic in how it happens given not all relationships develop the same nor all people need a lot of words to convey feeling. I do not expect arbitrary development when the narrative is and can be different due the character's traits. My main issue is that peeps here seem to want equal outcome with very different routes and personalities. What makes love in real life so interesting is that sometimes you "know" someone is for you without excessive development, sometimes it takes years and years to develop, why must a game deviate from reality in that regard just because some arbitrary criteria on how much a relationship should take to develop?

It's fine if we disagree, spice of life and all that. The not-so-fun answer to your question is: because it's a game and not real life. It didn't make River feel more real or interesting to have his romance tacked randomly at the end of three quests as jambalaya and a sex scene, it made him feel underdeveloped and like they were ticking the "straight female" box.

 

[Alt-Mikoshi]

It's fine if we disagree, spice of life and all that. The not-so-fun answer to your question is: because it's a game and not real life. It didn't make River feel more real or interesting to have his romance tacked randomly at the end of three quests as jambalaya and a sex scene, it made him feel underdeveloped and like they were ticking the "straight female" box.

Exactly, it is not real life, so why expect a lot of development? Also, River and V by the time they have sex and all that, even within the dialogue is very clear that it was a "fun" night and an opportunity to start something; by V's own words, it is a "try" not a formal, developed relationship with high expectations because of the situation at hand.

It is very humane for neither to become very attached or unconsciously not go too far due the knowledge of how bad the situation is; whilst comparing to Judy, you cannot really compare the experiences and reactions of a basement dweller to a veteran cop who has seen shit that might be twisted beyond what a "civilian" can endure. River's attitude makes sense from a psychiatric standpoint (using my expertise here, not just speculation), people who have learnt how dreadful parts of the world can be kinda "rush" stuff or become distant if they find a person that might be on their side in a romantic way; it is inherent fear of loss and commitment due assumption of loss, it is kinda ingrained into them.

That is why I like that some of the chars feel "rushed" in their way of expressing emotion, mostly because if you see a bit beyond the obvious, it kinda makes sense, unlike Judy who's unreasonably optimistic and naïve despite living in figurative hell...

 

[rippercityransom]

-snip-

I really like the interpretation, and I’d be able to get behind it (especially as one that tends towards potentially unhealthy immediate attachment in real life) if there was just a small bit more to it. I feel like there’s something missing between River’s second mission and the “I miss you” call. Even separate from a comparison to Judy and Panam or chalking it up to his lived experience, it was just off. It might have been better with an impactful text exchange or small side mission between between leaving the barn and getting a call to play VR games with the kids because it jumps way too suddenly. It sounds like it’s a similar experience leading to the kiss with Kerry.

If they were swinging for a “it’s the end of the world, we might as well try” type romance or pre-romance, it missed for me. I like River as a character a lot and I live for the analysis of him, just felt like they didn’t stick the landing with him as a love interest.

 

[Alt-Mikoshi]

I really like the interpretation, and I’d be able to get behind it (especially as one that tends towards potentially unhealthy immediate attachment in real life) if there was just a small bit more to it. I feel like there’s something missing between River’s second mission and the “I miss you” call. Even separate from a comparison to Judy and Panam or chalking it up to his lived experience, it was just off. It might have been better with an impactful text exchange or small side mission between between leaving the barn and getting a call to play VR games with the kids because it jumps way too suddenly. It sounds like it’s a similar experience leading to the kiss with Kerry.

If they were swinging for a “it’s the end of the world, we might as well try” type romance or pre-romance, it missed for me. I like River as a character a lot and I live for the analysis of him, just felt like they didn’t stick the landing with him as a love interest.

We can agree that the narrative was a bit odd, but the "rushed" nature makes sense in the PoV of a damaged individual like River. Under no metric he's "fine" mentally and is similar to a patient of mine from years ago, was a soldier though and had a similar attitude to River; married his equal in less than a week and worked surprisingly. Had that "need" to rush stuff and cling into the first opportunity of happiness due his PTSD and other concomitances I shan't delve into, but you get the idea.

Again, I am mentioning this from the view of a health practitioner and I am aware that might make me see stuff from a different scope than your average gamer and that might be the reason why I cannot see some elements some users here complain about.

 

[tavellone]

At the risk of being accused of having some sort of an agenda, this is what happens when you let a bunch of straight men write romance storylines involving gay characters.

 

[Alt-Mikoshi]

At the risk of being accused of having some sort of an agenda, this is what happens when you let a bunch of straight men write romance storylines involving gay characters.

This thread would not be complete without a comment like this.

 

[tavellone]

This thread would not be complete without a comment like this.

Glad to be of service.

 

[Alt-Mikoshi]

Glad to be of service.

I ask thee, for real. Am I allowed to write stories of straight men? I am a lesbian woman. If the answer is positive, then your past comment becomes a contradiction, if negative... wow, just wow...

 

[tavellone]

I ask thee, for real. Am I allowed to write stories of straight men? I am a lesbian woman. If the answer is positive, then your past comment becomes a contradiction, if negative... wow, just wow...

I'm neither saying yes or no because you're allowed to do whatever the hell you want, I'm not the writing police and I can't prevent you from doing anything, nor would I wish to. I'll reinterpret your question in a way that makes more sense. Sure, a lesbian can write for a heterosexual character and a particularly good writer can probably go beyond their own sexuality to construe some story that doesn't seem off, though your perception as a writer will always be skewed by personal experience. Beyond that, heteronormative relationships are overwhelmingly the norm and can easily be copied or understood direct from other media without too much of an influence from a non heterosexual writer's perspective so the comparison is not equal nor accurate. Having straight males write for homosexual or none heterosexual characters is inherently skewed as I said and frankly I don't consider the writers of this game to be good or skilled enough to pull it off authentically and that is why you have ham hashed homosexual romances like Kerry.

I will also state that although Judy's romance is seen as well constructed I would argue this has more to do with the writers being able to understand a functioning relationship with a female than an accurate depiction of a lesbian relationship.