Romances: Disparity in quality and quantity

+
So having come back to the game with more tempered expectations my impressions are much more positive than they initially were. There’s way more interesting characters in the city than I realised (they got buried under all the gigs in my first playthrough), I’m used to the car feel to the point it’s now fun, the gameplay is good, the city looks great, rebel path is a banger of a track, animations are amazing...

However one thing still sticks out as glaringly bad, which is how unbalanced in content and depth the romances are. Both female romances are introduced early, main plot integral, also have lengthy side quests on top of their already substantial main quest content and generally feel like a presence through the whole game. They stand up to the best BioWare romances.

The male options, on the other hand, feel like an afterthought. Neither are involved in the main quest and instead of having extra side content to compensate, they have notably less.

River has three quests in act 2 (including his romance culmination) after which he is basically a non-entity. While I like the content he has, it’s only slightly more content than Meredith. It’s only the fact you can call him at the end that makes him a romance by the games standards, but he doesn’t feel like a big part of V’s life or story at all.

Then there’s Kerry, introduced after 90% of the main plot is done and only if you let Johnny take control of your body three times, after which you get three quests with him where you aren’t even playing as V (so build no connection). Then you get two short quests following him around as he enacts petty revenge schemes. Then his romance culmination. He’s like Zevran, a character already largely criticised by gay men, but with 20% of the content. Getting into a personal rant, as a gay man, I would have much, much preferred River and found his romance scene a lot more emotionally satisfying and refreshing. Kerry feels like the stale kinky hedonist bi guy cliche that further props up the stereotype that gay men don't desire wholesome romance and family values. This has been complained about ad naeseum in the gay pop culture community. I wouldn't change a thing with River's romance scene, whereas I actively felt uncomfortable with Kerry's.

For contrast: Panam is directly involved in 11 quests spread over the game, including main quests. Judy is in 10, including main, spread over the game. Compare this with River's three sidequests and Kerry's three sidequests (discounting the ones where you play as Johnny). That's a HUGE disparity. This isn't even getting into the endings, where Panam and Judy both have positive endings in Nomad, whereas River and Kerry break up with you. Their best ending is Sun, where V still acts hostile and closed off from them.

I understand that the biggest demographic is straight males and if a game has a set protagonist with set sexuality, fair play. Nothing wrong this that. The problem is when it’s advertised as a malleable protagonist with equality of romance content and then doesn't deliver. I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue that Kerry isn’t much weaker in content and relationship building (and character, but that’s personal taste) than all the other options (especially Judy and Panam) and that straight women and gay men weren’t done dirty here.

What’s kind of baffling is that the main plot already has an attractive male character (who you even seem to flirt with at times) with Takemura and then River would have been easy to weave into the main plot as a police detective. Going forward, River is an easy fix; just add more content. Even new texts where you can update him on the main quest would make a huge difference. Kerry is much more difficult, I’d honestly suggest just adding in an alternate m/m option in future content or, taking the more efficient route, take the kind-of-bi River and just make him fully bi. If he’ll romance you with a big wang, a man voice and being male identifying I don’t think it’s a stretch he’d be down for a pretty boy V he feels emotionally connected to seeing as his sexuality seems defined solely by physical femininity. It seems like a small thing in the grand scheme of things, but I it’s evident by now that getting players to feel connected to solid romances and companion characters can elevate a game to classic status and while Judy and Panam are having a good run at that, anyone wanting a male romance is left out in the cold in that regard. I hope this is considered for future content.
I completely agree, as someone who plays a lesbian V, it brings me genuine physical pain that I can't romance Panam without a masculine body. As you said with River, if she has no problem dating a female-identifying V with a feminine voice and a vagina, I can't see a feminine body being some huge deal breaker. They should've both been unconditionally bisexual romance options from the start, with two new exclusively heterosexual romance options taking their place in the hetero niche (maybe Goro and Meredith?).

And yes, both River and Kerry were done dirty in the content department. In River's case it actually makes his romance jarring because you've spent all of two missions together before he suddenly falls in love with you.

I seriously hope CDPR expands the romance content in future free DLCs and expansions.
 
Late to the party and my post will probably include many other people’s opinions who spoke before me but yeah… still decided to share my thoughts with you. One less to count as ‘silent majority’ pleased with the content of this thread.

Spoilers ahead, but what are you doing here before finishing the game? ;)

I’ll focus mostly on Kerry for obvious reasons.

First thing that came to my mind after finishing Kerry’s storyline was ‘why is he even considered as a full-fledged romance option and not a one night stand?’

To begin with - you’re in a rush, you fear for your life, you feel pressure to meet with Hanako, yet somehow it’s the peeerfect (yeah, but no) time to slow down, let Johnny take control over you, and shorten your lifespan due to the pills from Misty (in the end they don’t really impact the progress, but uh, that’s not what we’ve been told at the beginning). So quite a sacrifice.

I won’t dwell on Kerry’s personal quests - they’re not exactly my cup of tea - but it doesn’t matter, that’s not the point. Personally I wouldn’t even bother chasing after the rockerboy due to my condition (yup, I mean that tiny ticking bomb in V’s head) but I wanted to experience this romance option. Alright, I can turn a blind eye on the subject of most of his personal quests and focus on what’s next.

‘A Like Supreme’ mission, a gig in Red Dirt. Kerry mentions something about things ‘before him trying to shoot V/Johnny’ while giving V his revolver. Oh, a foreshadowing? You had my curiosity, but now you have my attention!

(And even after the last pill V rushes himself to finally meet with Hanako but nah, she can wait a few days more. Quite the timing, no?)

Terrace in Dark Matter seemed to be a perfect start to go deeper. Then… nothing. Just a kiss out of the blue (as many before me wrote in this thread – I’d love to see hints that V and Kerry are attracted to each other). At the beach, when V decides whether to start a relationship or not, it was said (the internet told me) that ending romance will cause Kerry’s relapse. And I was like WHAT? All the progress he made seemed to be fueled by meeting Johnny, V being himself barely scratched the surface.

The beginning of their relationship was fast and intense, I can live with that. But it was quite sad to discover that after ‘Boat Drinks’ nothing interesting happens. Well, nothing happens, to be precise. But as they say hope dies last, so when my corp started talking with Kerry about leaving Araska, I thought ‘Oh, so maybe now they can open up to each other?’ then V… just cut it short. That dialogue seemed to me to be such a perfect opportunity when V finally had his chance to make some progress and he just let it go, he gave up. We never have any occasion to bring up what he said that night in Red Dirt or confess about V’s condition.

After completing Judy and Panam storylines and confessing to them that things were getting worse, seeing how they cared for V and promised to help somehow, I didn’t even get the CHOICE if I wanted to talk to Kerry about anything important. So compared to interactions and dialogues with female companions, I just felt like I got left with one big nothing. Yup. My expectations were high not because of marketing-made hype, but based on what I experienced with Panam and Judy. I don’t say they’re perfect but they delivered much more.

Time flies by, bomb’s ticking, and if we want to see text messages from almost 90-year-old teenager in love (they’re naively cute, but extremely cringy :p) we have to linger for about a week more. Not to mention that when Kerry texted V after Boat Drinks I decided to come by and seeing the same mess all around and K. 24/7 stuck on a couch was… not what I hoped for.

I guess my attitude would be completely different if Kerry was a one night stand. (And yes, I noticed that there are no males among one night stands. Why?) It’s not that I cannot see his inner demons, his inability to talk about them directly. I think there’s much more to offer. I would like to see him and V had more time to grow attached, to open up, to see this relationship fully developed, not stuck halfway.

As I said before, the timing is not very convenient, the pace of storytelling is broken-down, your gradually worsening condition is frozen ex machina and all of this breaks immersion, like, A LOT.


Instant friendship with River didn’t engage me at all. Too many shortcuts. I won’t elaborate on his construction, I didn’t play fem V, but I still see there’s no room for developing anything deep between the two of them during gameplay.

Please, fellow players, don’t say it’s not a dating sim. WE KNOW. I could agree with you on that aspect if everyone from The Romanceable Four was served equally ‘undercooked’. And yes, there’s no need to meet all of LIs in the very first minute of gameplay, but c’mon, just before a point of no return? If there’s no way to make all romance options equal ‘because it’s not a dating sim’… why to bother at all and put any of them in this game?

The fact that River and Kerry are not the part of the main story seems strange to me from the perspective of plot construction but okay, not gonna argue that this is the one and only proper way. ;) Still, I truly believe that it is possible to write a scenario where Kerry’s and River’s lifepaths meet with V’s smoothly, they have a real impact on his/her life and vice versa.

I do want my slice of escapism, and I don’t want it to be thinner than the other’s.


Also:

Why would Kerry interact with V before Johnny introduces them? – folks before me already suggested some explanations, I can add one more: when you call Dino Dinovic and tell him you’re in the mood to party, he says something about Kerry setting up one and he’ll get you in. For me personally K. could be introduced by one of the fixers. Even if not strictly by sending V a job offer, but with Dino – the door is already wide open. Just a thought.

There’s no place for those men in this plot means only that the plot is half-baked.

Judy and Panams plotline exists irrelevant to romance – and I see no reason why it couldn’t be the same for River and Kerry.

Because they didnt manage to put the female love interests into the main story. They were already there. – sounds like they were forced to work on a half ready scenario and it’s a miracle that they still managed to put those men into it. :D If a character feels forced and unnecessary it says something about their construction and construction of the storyline.

The main plot is not the path to enlightenment in this game. The main plot is the shortest path to finishing the game with no frills, and the worst ending. The game is written to be the least satisfying if you rush to the end.

All the romances offer a different story and a different purpose. They are not designed to be similar flavors for different gender/orientation.
It is natural that different players will prefer different LIs,

the story in this game does not exist to give the player whatever they desire in or out of romances, the writing does not exist for this purpose, so expecting them to write a LI in earlier to the plot does not make sense, any more than them writing a way for you to befriend the VDBs, Get the cops to attack Arasaka, or get takamura to betray Arasaka. Its definitely possible to write, but the plot/world isn't wish fulfillment. This doesn't mean you can't get anything, its partially choices, and partially luck whether the events in the game line up with your V's desires for the world. V is no more handed a LI that fullfills their needs, than they are handed a perfect way out of the relic situation.

In this game, the way to most likely be able to find a romance you like is to be willing to play all genders and orientations, then you have 4 different types of romance instead of one.
 

Guest 4412420

Guest
First thing that came to my mind after finishing Kerry’s storyline was ‘why is he even considered as a full-fledged romance option and not a one night stand?’
Can you elaborate what you mean by that? Why shouldn't he be?

I won’t dwell on Kerry’s personal quests - they’re not exactly my cup of tea - but it doesn’t matter, that’s not the point. Personally I wouldn’t even bother chasing after the rockerboy due to my condition (yup, I mean that tiny ticking bomb in V’s head) but I wanted to experience this romance option.
I think that due to V's condition, romantic relationship in general can develop at a somewhat inopportune time, not just Kerry's. The fact he's introduced so late in the game doesn't really change anything in this regard?

After completing Judy and Panam storylines and confessing to them that things were getting worse, seeing how they cared for V and promised to help somehow, I didn’t even get the CHOICE if I wanted to talk to Kerry about anything important. So compared to interactions and dialogues with female companions, I just felt like I got left with one big nothing. Yup. My expectations were high not because of marketing-made hype, but based on what I experienced with Panam and Judy. I don’t say they’re perfect but they delivered much more.
Yes, I agree. I really wish there was an option to talk to Kerry about the biochip as V. We know that Johnny told him about it, but we have no idea just how much he knows. I was waiting for the relic malfunction to happen sometime during his personal questline like it happened with Judy and Panam, so we'd have a chance to talk about it but nothing happened. Just like it doesn't happen with River. This isn't even romance related. It's just... content.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The main plot is not the path to enlightenment in this game. The main plot is the shortest path to finishing the game with no frills, and the worst ending. The game is written to be the least satisfying if you rush to the end.
Which makes no sense for me, because we've been told that we have a few weeks top left. Then we spend at least a week of that time fulfilling Johnny's last wish(es) - Johnny who is basically a talkative parasite in V's head and should be removed as fast as possible.

Can you elaborate what you mean by that? Why shouldn't he be?
Oh, he definitely should be! I was just surprised how instant it was in comparison to Judy and Panam.

I think that due to V's condition, romantic relationship in general can develop at a somewhat inopportune time, not just Kerry's. The fact he's introduced so late in the game doesn't really change anything in this regard?
Basically yes. But in his case the bomb ticks louder and louder.

Yes, I agree. I really wish there was an option to talk to Kerry about the biochip as V. We know that Johnny told him about it, but we have no idea just how much he knows. I was waiting for the relic malfunction to happen sometime during his personal questline like it happened with Judy and Panam, so we'd have a chance to talk about it but nothing happened. Just like it doesn't happen with River. This isn't even romance related. It's just... content.
Exactly my thoughts.
 
Which makes no sense for me, because we've been told that we have a few weeks top left. Then we spend at least a week of that time fulfilling Johnny's last wish(es) - Johnny who is basically a talkative parasite in V's head and should be removed as fast as possible.


Oh, he definitely should be! I was just surprised how instant it was in comparison to Judy and Panam.


Basically yes. But in his case the bomb ticks louder and louder.


Exactly my thoughts.

The shortest and most obvious path is not always the best one.


Doc says you got 3 weeks to live if you don't have a surgery, surgery only has a 20% survival rate. Do you do the surgery day 4 or do you spend two weeks searching for other options and doing the things you want to do before possibly dying?

Thats the player's choice to make. However, if you are looking for love, every LI requires you to spend extra time/quests with them. Every alternate ending paths requires you to spend extra time making connections with people who will lend you their strength. You have more options the more people you connect with, thats not unrealistic.

If you think Johnny is a parasite, don't help him. Thats a valid path to take, but you miss out on whatever a closer connection to Johnny brings, thats life.
 
The shortest and most obvious path is not always the best one.

Doc says you got 3 weeks to live if you don't have a surgery, surgery only has a 20% survival rate. Do you do the surgery day 4 or do you spend two weeks searching for other options and doing the things you want to do before possibly dying?

Except that V's condition is supposed to get worse as it progresses, taking Johnny's pills was originally presented as a harmful choice that would accelerate the relic's effects, and V doesn't get "better" endings by doing more research and thinking things though. The side quests leading to Kerry's romance and the alternate ending paths are completely unrelated to V's problem (helping Panam, going after Johnny's old nemesis and helping his friends with non urgent issues).

Again, this is a game. If things happen a certain way it's just because they were written to do so. Lots of things in life are completely anticlimactic and don't translate well to media, and if NC was real V wouldn't have just four people as potential love interests in a city of millions.
 
Hmm... interesting way to see it. Technically speaking V is Johnny, or rather their body is. I saw the Mikoshi bit and why you're there as Johnny is because V was soulkilled the moment Johnny connected to the thingamabob and thus V's engram at the time was in Mikoshi and not in their body but Johnny's is as he's the one who controlled it.


Personally, I found Kerry's characterization and story arc well developed and definitely closer to the ladies than River. I think that despite the late introduction he did get love as a character but not so much as a LI.

the main problem I have with the current romance "system" is that once you've completed it the "romance" dead ends...nothing.... suddenly it's like you were caught by you love interest doing some unforgivable thing and their too scared of you to break up, just politely bore you with on line over and over to drive you away passively. Or maybe it was all just a sex manipulation for their needs.( help with their problems.. ie their quest needs) so.... it leaves me thinking am I a cyberpsychco or a dumb gonk ?
 

Guest 4412420

Guest
the main problem I have with the current romance "system" is that once you've completed it the "romance" dead ends...nothing....
I recall reading one of the developers saying something that the sex scenes won't be an end goal for the romances in some pre-release interview, but for the life of me I can't find it. Technically they're right, as LIs are present in some of the endings, but that's not what anyone expected. I think most of us thought we'll get a couple of romance related dialogues after getting frisky with them, so it would feel like there is a relationship between them and V, but there's no dialogue. Except for Panam as she has one, maybe Judy too? Kerry was kind of suppose to have one but it was cut.

They tried to add something with the text messages, and while they're cute and all, they also end just as abruptly. :(
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Again, this is a game. If things happen a certain way it's just because they were written to do so.
The biggest point of the thread could be summed up with these two sentences, honestly. "Such and such happened because of character motivations." Okay but who gave them those motivations? There was a real person behind every decision that went into this game. Someone looked at the difference in the content between the guys and gals and said "this is fine." I'd love to hear from the devs or the writers if it was a victim of rushed development or just an inability to consider that people wouldn't like the two leading ladies above all else.

I don't know why people have to jump through hoops to justify their feelings about the guys getting less content or the quality of the content in the first place. It's an opinion. It's feedback. Yet, 3/4ths this thread feels like people having to bring time stamped videos just prove there's a difference to begin with, then you show that there's an actual, provable disparity in screen-time/quality and it's just "well, play the game differently" or "it doesn't matter anyway."
 
Hell, I'd just have been happy to romance Misty or save and romance Evelyn Parker (maybe making Judy jealous or even forming a polyamorous relationship).

My only real (significant) hetero male choice being Panam is stifling. Don't get me wrong, I like Panam (generally), but I expected more options.
 
Except that V's condition is supposed to get worse as it progresses, taking Johnny's pills was originally presented as a harmful choice that would accelerate the relic's effects, and V doesn't get "better" endings by doing more research and thinking things though. The side quests leading to Kerry's romance and the alternate ending paths are completely unrelated to V's problem (helping Panam, going after Johnny's old nemesis and helping his friends with non urgent issues).

Again, this is a game. If things happen a certain way it's just because they were written to do so. Lots of things in life are completely anticlimactic and don't translate well to media, and if NC was real V wouldn't have just four people as potential love interests in a city of millions.
as a person in a city of millions, I dunno if real LIs are as easy as you think
Post automatically merged:

Except that V's condition is supposed to get worse as it progresses, taking Johnny's pills was originally presented as a harmful choice that would accelerate the relic's effects, and V doesn't get "better" endings by doing more research and thinking things though. The side quests leading to Kerry's romance and the alternate ending paths are completely unrelated to V's problem (helping Panam, going after Johnny's old nemesis and helping his friends with non urgent issues).

Again, this is a game. If things happen a certain way it's just because they were written to do so. Lots of things in life are completely anticlimactic and don't translate well to media, and if NC was real V wouldn't have just four people as potential love interests in a city of millions.

The thing is, writing is subjective. IMO the narrative, world, and characters were very compelling, and many others have said its actually the best part of the game. So I am skeptical that the charachterization and world would be improved by changing/altering the whole nature of the characters and V's interaction.

So solutions that say, hey why not change a character's motivations, style, and self to make them more "gamey" is not a good idea, imo.


What if the thing some players want from a romance is a character that makes them forget about the bomb in their head, and they met this character because they'd rather do other things besides obsess over their possible demise and kill people? How would it be helped by inserting this character into the frantic death spiral of the MQ?
Post automatically merged:

The biggest point of the thread could be summed up with these two sentences, honestly. "Such and such happened because of character motivations." Okay but who gave them those motivations? There was a real person behind every decision that went into this game. Someone looked at the difference in the content between the guys and gals and said "this is fine." I'd love to hear from the devs or the writers if it was a victim of rushed development or just an inability to consider that people wouldn't like the two leading ladies above all else.

I don't know why people have to jump through hoops to justify their feelings about the guys getting less content or the quality of the content in the first place. It's an opinion. It's feedback. Yet, 3/4ths this thread feels like people having to bring time stamped videos just prove there's a difference to begin with, then you show that there's an actual, provable disparity in screen-time/quality and it's just "well, play the game differently" or "it doesn't matter anyway."
its a forum, people are going to interact, sometimes agreeing, sometimes disagreeing, sometimes having different perspectives. Its a discussion of opinions and ideas.

And the characters motivations are baked into who the character is.

This is my problem with certain types of feedback on the romances, its one thing to say, this idea you have for this romance is poorly developed. Its a different thing to say, this character and relationship should be a different kind of character and relationship. Its also odd to me to reduce every character down to their gender an orientation.

It would make more sense to say I'd rather have a totally different character as a LI, than to say, this character should be altered to hit these specific goals.

I also don't think being more uniform makes it a better game/story/rpg. They could have had Panam and her Brother Manap, with virtually the same background and plotline to give male and female charachters equal stories. Would it make the game better? Not imo, it would be clear those characters only exist to serve the player, and would probably take the place of having a legitimately different romance that evolves in a different way for players not interested in the warrior nomad fellow warrior as a relationship.
 
Last edited:
I hope something more will be added with future free DLCs and payment DLCs. Sex scenes are the most explicit i've seen in AAA games so quality is ok for me.
 
Its also odd to me to reduce every character down to their gender an orientation.
Not every character, just the 4 LIs and only because it’s relevant. CDPR put them into handy categories: the two that are main story relevant, have the most content, are happily involved in the ‘peaceful’ ending, and pace their relationship development over a few missions instead of all at once are women... and then there’s the men. It’s easier than typing out their full names every time.


They could have had Panam and her Brother Manap, with virtually the same background and plotline to give male and female charachters equal stories. Would it make the game better?
It would have made my game experience better and I’m not sure why it would bother anyone that there would be a male interest that got equal content. I never intend on making a male V to go through a Panam romance because I don’t like playing male characters if I don’t have to, so I would lose absolutely nothing with a male Panam alternative and I would gain a story that actually made some sense. Because as much as I adore River, going from 0-100 and then having him fall off the earth just to reappear and make my endings more upsetting didn’t make sense. They didn’t even fix him in 1.2 so you still can’t call him, his texts are all busted, and his niece and nephew are still haunted. It’s like CDPR could not care less about any V’s story that’s not playing how they wanted them to. I can’t imagine if Panam was that broken that she’d be left in that state.

It would make more sense to say I'd rather have a totally different character as a LI, than to say, this character should be altered to hit these specific goals
Both things can be true. At any point in development they could have picked different LIs that would have been easier to implement the same way, but they didn’t. Then through development they could have given them more content, relevant-to-V content, but they didn’t. So here we are, gay men and straight women just asking for a little bit of what the others got, since what we got is not satisfying.

its a forum, people are going to interact, sometimes agreeing, sometimes disagreeing, sometimes having different perspectives. Its a discussion of opinions and ideas.
Did you play the male romances or do you intend to? Can you see how it could be frustrating for people that DO like men to be told consistently that it’s better that they get less content relevant to their interests in the name of making a better narrative for everyone else? I don’t think your V’s sexuality should affect the quality of your narrative, and in my opinion it did in a bad, bad way.

I hope none of that came off aggressive, not trying to pick fights. I just genuinely don’t understand why it’s controversial to point out the difference and say it’s upsetting.
 

Guest 4412420

Guest
It would make more sense to say I'd rather have a totally different character as a LI, than to say, this character should be altered to hit these specific goals.
But both Kerry and River are LIs. They're both interested in V and start a relationship with them if the player chooses to pursue them. Them having more romance related content wouldn't alter these characters in any way because said content would only help to improve what's already there.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
But both Kerry and River are LIs. They're both interested in V and start a relationship with them if the player chooses to pursue them. Them having more romance related content wouldn't alter these characters in any way because said content would only help to improve what's already there.
to be clear, I'm not objecting to the characters having more content or better developing them within the character they are. I am objecting to suggestions that would alter the nature of the characters or what type of relationship they offer, mostly because it would make them poorer written characters.

Some have suggested the game would be better if they did this, thats mostly what I disagree with.
 
My wish can be summed up 'more time on screen for River and Kerry'. Simple as that. None of us will change what's already in the game, I'm aware of that.

My issue is that we ended up with two tight-lipped men. V also becomes less forthcoming around them. All of this together seems to fulfill the stereotype that men don't talk about their fellings or they're less talkative in general. I can't shake the feeling the characters were made last minute and with minimal effort.

Ker could be more challenging to write, but River was a blank page and writers could have done with him literally everything. Considered as love interests or not, they deserve better development. We're talking about AAA, not indie game made after hours.
 
Then there’s Kerry, introduced after 90% of the main plot is done and only if you let Johnny take control of your body three times, after which you get three quests with him where you aren’t even playing as V (so build no connection). Then you get two short quests following him around as he enacts petty revenge schemes. Then his romance culmination. He’s like Zevran, a character already largely criticised by gay men, but with 20% of the content. Getting into a personal rant, as a gay man, I would have much, much preferred River and found his romance scene a lot more emotionally satisfying and refreshing. Kerry feels like the stale kinky hedonist bi guy cliche that further props up the stereotype that gay men don't desire wholesome romance and family values. This has been complained about ad naeseum in the gay pop culture community. I wouldn't change a thing with River's romance scene, whereas I actively felt uncomfortable with Kerry's.
Couldn't agree more! I've already wrote it under other topic, and I'll repeat it here - Kerry's romance is so stereotypical in comparison to the other romance options that I would even go as far as to say that [...]. Which I can't wrap my head around as CDPR already shown that they can write gay characters without making them, as you perfectly described it, a "kinky hedonist bi guy" with Myslav in Witcher 3. Sure, it was a very minor character, but as a gay guy I was extremely impressed and happy with even this minor appearance. But somehow in CP77 we got back to typical distinction of straight guys being knights in shining armor, always putting the family first, lawful good, etc., and gay guys being self-centered, hedonistic, with chaotic, questionable morality.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Couldn't agree more! I've already wrote it under other topic, and I'll repeat it here - Kerry's romance is so stereotypical in comparison to the other romance options that I would even go as far as to say that [...]. Which I can't wrap my head around as CDPR already shown that they can write gay characters without making them, as you perfectly described it, a "kinky hedonist bi guy" with Myslav in Witcher 3. Sure, it was a very minor character, but as a gay guy I was extremely impressed and happy with even this minor appearance. But somehow in CP77 we got back to typical distinction of straight guys being knights in shining armor, always putting the family first, lawful good, etc., and gay guys being self-centered, hedonistic, with chaotic, questionable morality.

I think one thing I didn't articulate well is that these characters aren't TERRIBLE in isolation, it's when you compare them to their straight counterparts and see the pattern. You've got Zevran, the leather fetish spicy rogue hedonist who likes murder, vs Alistair. the virgin white knight who gifts you a rose. You've got Iron Bull, another promiscuous hedonist who's entire romance is centered on BDSM sex, vs Cullen and Blackwall, both romantic white knights. Vasco, the rogueish pirate, vs Kurt, your white knight childhood friend. Kerry, morally ambiguous kinky hedonist alternative lifestyle, vs River, masculine white knight police detective with family values...Reyes vs Jaal and Liam (pre-patched Jaal). It's hard not to be tired of it by now. The trend is only bucked by Cortez and Gil, that I can think of in a AAA RPG (Kaidan and Jaal being retroactively made m/m and Dorian being a stereotype of his own).

Extra confusion coming from the fact that there is so much feedback to draw from on this, with m/m Kaidan romance being almost universally well received and demand for a 'gay white knight' going back as far as DA: Origins release.

I do put some blame on a vocal minority in the LGBT community itself a little bit, with this trend of insisting that same-sex relationships and 'queer life' are inherently different to straight ones, which I think is confusing writers into drawing on tropes and emphasise their gayness rather than write them like a character who just happens to be gay.

Also just gonna reiterate here for the sake of positivity; I do actually think the game is great and I'm excited for the franchise going forward. Personal issues with Kerry aside, my biggest gripe and original main point is the huge gap in content between the female and male romances that I hope is addressed going forward.
 
Top Bottom