RPG elements of TW3

[kofeiiniturpa]

I wouldn't mind having it as post game, after finishing the story.

If there ever was a place for respeccing it would be right there. I don't play "post ending" stuff so it wouldn't be bothering me there.

Also i see nothing wrong with having the ability of respeccing , if people want to use it they use it, the people that don't want to , won't, it's not like it's a feature that forces the player to use it

Sure, but then... I don't think the "it's optional" is really a working argument when the feature at hand affects the gameplay experience as a whole (as opposed to deciding whether or not to drink certain potion before combat, or whether to engage in a certain situation to begin with). It's a psychological thing. An example: If there was a "kill all enemies" button on the HUD that you could press at any time if you wanted to, would that make the combat feel better or worse knowing that at any point you can remove the challenge by the press of the button, and it being there by design?

 

[caruga]

I don't think the game should allow for that sort of completionism, at least not during the campaign/story. It hurts the integrity of the game to be able let Geralt unlearn what he has learned, and learn something else on the spot to replace the unlearned. It's a gamey feature that only serves those completionists. It's a matter of principle.

I don't know about Final Fantasies, how they manage to do things, but still, I wouldn't want that for this game.

Actually, what's wrong with having the ability to learn everything, it just requires something a little extra to get there and most people won't attain that? They'd still spend perhaps the entire campaign with a specific build and identity...

---------- Updated at 09:04 PM ----------

Sure, but then... I don't think the "it's optional" is really a working argument when the feature at hand affects the gameplay experience as a whole (as opposed to deciding whether or not to drink certain potion before combat, or whether to engage in a certain situation to begin with). It's a psychological thing. An example: If there was a "kill all enemies" button on the HUD that you could press at any time if you wanted to, would that make the combat feel better or worse knowing that at any point you can remove the challenge by the press of the button, and it being there by design?

Agreed. I don't care for the 'you don't have to use it' argument. Oftentimes, people don't know the impact something has on the enjoyment of their game until after they've done it. You can't make an informed decision about whether or not to use something until after you've (ab)used it all the way through the game and then realise on reflection that it hurt the experience. I firmly believe a dev of any genre of game should take the role of the 'dungeon master', exert control over the experience they want the player to have. Rules and limitations are a defining element of gameplay.

 

[Xvenger]

According to this interview, there are no I-frames (invincible frames) in the dodges which is unfortunate in my opinion.
(starting at around 5:35)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz3g-xuKmQE

One of the main reasons for frustration for witcher 2 combat in my experience is the rather inconsistent dodge/rolling mechanic.
There were a few instances where I KNOW my timing was just right in rolling back to avoid a swipe from a monster and yet, I still get the bullshit hit marker of getting "stabbed in the back" during the roll animation taking out all my hp since I'm playing on dark mode Arena.
From there on, I felt forced to change my playstyle in a way where I just preemptively dodge after landing quick 1-3 hits even if there aren't really any big indicators that I'm about to get hit. In short, it made the game's combat to me not as enticing since the adrenaline rush of narrowly escaping damage was no longer there.

i figured the way to solve this problem is to either have a .20 sec i-frames or a faster roll to dodge out attacks being thrown at me in the middle of this animation. I pray that W3's new dodge system is actually reasonable enough since this one seems roughly twice as fast as a regular roll from W2

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Actually, what's wrong with having the ability to learn everything, it just requires something a little extra to get there and most people won't attain that? They'd still spend perhaps the entire campaign with a specific build and identity...

It's a thing that concerns the overall feel of the system, and through there the experience. When you can learn all - extra work or not - you remove a tangible layer of consideration from the system. There's no decision to make nor consequence to have (but a short term one), just something to "fix" through a bit of extra mileage. The replayvalue also diminishes through being able to be an "everything man".

Of course there are games where such a thing doesn't matter, but often times when the game otherwise is trying to achieve an overall serious (rather than casual - as in things not really mattering) experience, the "get it all" stuff tends to come in the way rather than help. It contrasts the overarcing design philosophy of choice and consequence that you (supposedly) have all these "hard decisions" and uncertain outcomes in the narrative, but then the gameplay mechanics and systems are a featherweight thing you can roll around and over how ever you want.

Agreed. I don't care for the 'you don't have to use it' argument. Oftentimes, people don't know the impact something has on the enjoyment of their game until after they've done it. You can't make an informed decision about whether or not to use something until after you've (ab)used it all the way through the game and then realise on reflection that it hurt the experience. I firmly believe a dev of any genre of game should take the role of the 'dungeon master', exert control over the experience they want the player to have. Rules and limitations are a defining element of gameplay.

:hatsoff:

 

[caruga]

It's a thing that concerns the overall feel of the system, and through there the experience. When you can learn all - extra work or not - you remove a tangible layer of consideration from the system. There's no decision to make nor consequence to have (but a short term one), just something to "fix" through a bit of extra mileage. The replayvalue also diminishes through being able to be an "everything man".

I agree. Conversely, games with class systems are often regarded as having high replayability just by that fact. Still, if a complete character is more of a theoretical goal than a practical one, it would become preferable to start over anyway--heck, even if you did learn everything it would happen so late that it would affect very little of your experience of the game, so the replay value isn't lost.

---------- Updated at 09:29 PM ----------

According to this interview, there are no I-frames (invincible frames) in the dodges which is unfortunate in my opinion.
(starting at around 5:35)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz3g-xuKmQE

One of the main reasons for frustration for witcher 2 combat in my experience is the rather inconsistent dodge/rolling mechanic.
There were a few instances where I KNOW my timing was just right in rolling back to avoid a swipe from a monster and yet, I still get the bullshit hit marker of getting "stabbed in the back" during the roll animation taking out all my hp since I'm playing on dark mode Arena.
From there on, I felt forced to change my playstyle in a way where I just preemptively dodge after landing quick 1-3 hits even if there aren't really any big indicators that I'm about to get hit. In short, it made the game's combat to me not as enticing since the adrenaline rush of narrowly escaping damage was no longer there.

i figured the way to solve this problem is to either have a .20 sec i-frames or a faster roll to dodge out attacks being thrown at me in the middle of this animation. I pray that W3's new dodge system is actually reasonable enough since this one seems roughly twice as fast as a regular roll from W2

Isn't that more of an issue of having logical collision?

Witcher 1 was the worst for this, as sometimes it wouldn't even finish animating the hit or you'd be way out of range, and still be shown taking damage.

 

[AutumnalWanderer]

Skyrim smithing? It's not lore-friendly for witcher. Tho in the books I never saw Geralt's brewing elixirs neither or collecting herbs for that matter.

Well the novels is not really about monsterhunting, and if is contains some monster killing is not that detailed as for example I would like to. In the shorts stories he brew some potions though.

 

[PT-Desu]

Sure, but then... I don't think the "it's optional" is really a working argument when the feature at hand affects the gameplay experience as a whole (as opposed to deciding whether or not to drink certain potion before combat, or whether to engage in a certain situation to begin with). It's a psychological thing. An example: If there was a "kill all enemies" button on the HUD that you could press at any time if you wanted to, would that make the combat feel better or worse knowing that at any point you can remove the challenge by the press of the button, and it being there by design?

I agreed with you on the part that it would mess with as to "it's there should i use it ?" (psychological) , like for example , you current build is missing something that would make a certain fight much easier, it would depend on the player will to resist the urge to respect even if for just that fight.
However i wouldn't blame the developers for that, it's purely dependent on the player.

I guess it would leave us with 2 choices so everyone could be happy, either allow it after beating the main story like i said or before starting the prologue have a dialogue asking if the player wants the function active from the start or not.

 

[Xvenger]

Isn't that more of an issue of having logical collision?

Witcher 1 was the worst for this, as sometimes it wouldn't even finish animating the hit or you'd be way out of range, and still be shown taking damage.

could be a factor as well and if thats the case, then that means that there's a big discrepancy on the timings in which the hits are being registered. That's only forgivable to online games since the one at fault in there is lag. The Witcher does not really have that excuse.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Still, if a complete character is more of a theoretical goal than a practical one, it would become preferable to start over anyway--heck, even if you did learn everything it would happen so late that it would affect very little of your experience of the game, so the replay value isn't lost.

I guess it depends on how "theoretical" it will be. A lot big RPG's fall into the same trap (some even intentionally) where there simply is so much content that a complete build is almost inevitably reached. Either through actively going for it, or running out of mileage with the build you wanted and having surplus skillpoints to assign in other areas. Either way - wanted or unwanted - ends up in the same place eventually.

 

[Pawlle]

Hmm i actually don't want there to be too many levles...i even think that 35 is too high....as they said this game will not have lvl scaling so when you return to starting areas you will 1shot things and not take any damage.....that will break the open world imo

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Hmm i actually don't want there to be too many levles...i even think that 35 is too high....as they said this game will not have lvl scaling so when you return to starting areas you will 1shot things and not take any damage.....that will break the open world imo

I agree in principle, but it of course depends on how the leveling works. They could, for one example, have it so that higher skill levels require more skillpoints to buy -- this would mean that eventually you'd need to level up a couple to few times before you can actually get any better (HP increments aside).

And then of course, the world layout... The beginning stages also having that higher level stuff to return to later on when capable enough. The signs of progression should be there though; no use to level up if everything is always hard as hell.

 

[KA1N3R]

Hmm i actually don't want there to be too many levles...i even think that 35 is too high....as they said this game will not have lvl scaling so when you return to starting areas you will 1shot things and not take any damage.....that will break the open world imo

would it?
After killing a chimera and then coming back to a nekker and still needing an endless amount of hits would break the open world IMO

 

[caruga]

Hmm i actually don't want there to be too many levles...i even think that 35 is too high....as they said this game will not have lvl scaling so when you return to starting areas you will 1shot things and not take any damage.....that will break the open world imo

We don't even know what level 35 means, it could be a high or a low level.

 

[Xvenger]

would it?
After killing a chimera and then coming back to a nekker and still needing an endless amount of hits would break the open world IMO

defintely agree. nothing's worse than not having that satisfaction of taking down a weak monster in a few hits after having run into it 30 hours ago and being the same pain in the ass. It's just soo unrewarding.
I also wouldn't worry about being overpowered. CDPR have mentioned that even if you are at near max-high level, there would be monsters in quests that would be higher and was implied that these levels are unreachable to the player.

 

[thislsmadness]

Based on the descriptions we just got, it sounds like the game does not use a traditional skill tree. Instead, it seems like you'll be able to respec anytime you want.

The overhauled skill trees see you unlocking abilities from three key disciplines: swordplay, alchemy and signs, with a fourth, smaller category reserved for general skills. These can be grouped together in four lots of three slots that become available as Geralt levels up and if three skills in any one group are of the same type, a bonus is conferred. There’s a slightly odd notion of having active and inactive skills but the focus here is on combining traits and abilities that complement one other and then swapping load-outs to suit a given situation.

http://in.ign.com/the-witcher-3/72586/preview/why-the-witcher-3-wild-hunt-will-be-worth-the-wait

Take the Transistor-esque skill tree. After purchasing skills, you activate them in slots: three in each of the tree’s four sections. Each skill-set has a colour and if all skills in a section share the same colour, their effect is amplified. However, unlike in Transistor where combining functions resulted in visceral changes to combat, the differences are largely incremental and less exciting: understandable, really, for a role-playing game that visually and formally references D&D descendants like Baldur’s Gate and Neverwinter Nights.

 

[TouPoutsou]

This is a lengthy post but I hope it answers your questions. I also included some links you might want to read.

The Witcher 1 was also 35. I seem to recall an interview where they said The Witcher 3 will be higher (though I don't have a source.) I think they said around 60?

I imagine so. I know for a fact they said in a recent interview that there are now 4 skill trees. Alchemy, Signs, Swordsmanship, and General Upgrades. I believe the general upgrades are different from the miniature "tutorial tree" they had in TW2.

In the press handout from E3 2013 they said every skill in the skill-tree would have a visible effect on combat. In other words... they're trying to make it like a true action game where upgrades change your animations and speed up frames.


Since TW3 is a lengthier game, I expect they will have some kind of respec option.

I imagine so. Isn't this the way most story-driven RPGs do things? I think it's how TW1 did it...

I assume so. The alternative is making items require progressively rarer materials the more powerful they get.

You mean invulnerability frame? I have no idea. TW3 uses an actual dodge mechanic if that's what you mean. Here is what someone wrote about dodging in a recent gameplay preview.

Thanks alot for the legthy helpful asnwer, greatly appreciated.

Xvenger:Thanks for this. Yeah it seems like there are no i-frames, which of course is bad, mainly because you cannot roll to the side, and you should always backdododging, making you look stupid. However the dodging system seems promising overall, and complex.

ThisIsMadness:Many thanks for this. This is very interesting, and it is as i hoped it would be, regarding the synergies. Free respecs at any time is not something i want, but some respecing, and not very limited should exist. I mean if your skill tree is complex, and encourages hybrid characters, with interesting synergies between the skill ponts, then it would be impossible to figure it out from the first minute. Some experimentation should be encouranged. Especially if the game is as big as it seems. I mean after spending 60 hours on the game, and made some suboptimal choises for my playstyle, and obviously i could not have avoided that, i shouldn't be forced to start over. I will entually replay the game, but you get the point.

 

[caruga]

Based on the descriptions we just got, it sounds like the game does not use a traditional skill tree. Instead, it seems like you'll be able to respec anytime you want.



http://in.ign.com/the-witcher-3/72586/preview/why-the-witcher-3-wild-hunt-will-be-worth-the-wait

Sounds like something completely new. I wonder if this requires meditation, to customize yourself for an upcoming battle? I wonder where potions come into it as well.

 

[Phinnway]

Hmm i actually don't want there to be too many levles...i even think that 35 is too high....as they said this game will not have lvl scaling so when you return to starting areas you will 1shot things and not take any damage.....that will break the open world imo

They did say they want upgrades to unlock new skill animations and abilities, like in an action game, rather than simply increasing your stats. So it shouldn't be as big of a problem as it is, for example, in MMORPGs.

 

[TouPoutsou]

Being God Like in RPG at some point is something that many people enjoy, especially in The Elder's Scrolls series. So it's not a problem if it's possible....on normal difficulty. However on hard and especially dark, reaching high levels should be MANDATORY to survive the hardest content(unless of course you have octapus skills).

 

[thislsmadness]

Being God Like in RPG at some point is something that many people enjoy, especially in The Elder's Scrolls series. So it's not a problem if it's possible....on normal difficulty. However on hard and especially dark, reaching high levels should be MANDATORY to survive the hardest content(unless of course you have octapus skills).

I totally agree. In fact, at least on dark mode, I wish they would have used some form of level scaling for the monster hunts and main quests so I can go about enjoying the game while trying to see/do everything without worrying about overleveling content.