RPG Grind Elements

[Suhiira]

Btw, long story short: I wouldn't compare any cinematic trailer with in-game footage. I'll read on reddit tomorrow.

The 2013 cinematic trailer has virtually nothing to do with CP2077, it's an announcement of CDPRs next project ... period.

The 2018 demo was exactly what it was advertised to be. An EARLY beta look at what CDPR has in mind for CP2077. Based on their own in-house development (ideas that didn't work out for various technical or gameplay reasons), feedback (to an extent), and the amount of wood a woodchuck can actually chuck (OK ... maybe not) the current game is vastly different in terms of visuals, mechanics, etc.

I.E. typical game development.

So to base your impressions on either the 2013 or 2018 (to a lesser extent) material is a recipe for disappointment. And it's no one's "fault" but your own.

 

[Snowflakez]

I'll just post it here for your convenience, so as not to create misunderstandings.

Loostreaks:

"( In the inventory screen) It had some kind of Lvl indication, but it didn't look like leveled system ( like in Borderlands, Diablo...looter genre)...seemed more like upgrade approach.
( Head, Face, Body, Chest, Jacket, Pants)
Hope they clarify this ( at E3)."

Other user:

I got excited for a moment and typed out a lengthy post examining this, but I think you're wrong after examining the trailer more.
At first, I thought the levels might apply to gear colors (her jacket is Level 2 because its 2 pips out of, what, 5? an uncommon). But after paying closer attention, most of her gear isn't colored at all, and it's still Lvl 1 or 2.
I think it's much more likely that armor/clothing, at the very least, is levelled like TW3. Sadly. I was hoping for unlevelled.
That said, whenever V goes to pick up an item, the level isn't displayed outright... so... I dunno. I hope it is just an upgrade system.

Loostreaks:

It doesn't seem that's the case ( to me).
Two reasons:
- There is no "Equip item level requirements" ( that All looter games have)
- There is no Primary/basic Defense stat, which is always used as "base" that increases for leveled gear. ( Same goes for basic damage for weapons).
Instead it has 4 stats ( Resistances: Physical/Chemical/Emp/Thermal), indicating horizontal stats variation ( like with weapons).
In comparison, from the Witcher: https://i2.wp.com/www.funkyvideogam...lood-and-Wine-Grandmaster-Wolf-Gear-Stats.jpg
Seems they're using similar approach with resistances and upgrades, but without increasing damage/defense and without levels.
All resistances 30 here, probably means 30% damage from all types is reduced...kind of high for starting reinforced jacket, meaning likely more specialized gear will probably go far higher than this. ( this is probably more of a all-round-useful starting gear). (Which would make resistance numbers very relevant)
In short, seems they're focusing here more on secondary properties ( you can also see it with weapons), since Cyberpunk has a lot more variety than Witcher did ( where they made a mistake of non stop increasing damage/armor, which had a large/negative impact on difficulty/balance)
We'll probably be able to wear here Armor that gives you very high Resistance to one type of damage/low with others, and weapons will feel more distinct different from one another.
You can see it in demo:
Rare Pistol: 79 DPS
Uncommon Shotgun: 90 DPS
Epic Smartgun: 87 DPS
Rare Militech/Corporate Tech Rifle: 89 DPS
In looter/level based gear game, variation between these numbers ( based on level/rarity) would be Much higher.
General Physical resistance could also mean damage from all melee weapons is calculated as the same type, like in Fallout.
Also: No weight indication...it's likely that game will not have weight based inventory system, and possibly more "restrictive looting" ( based on grid, or list, or body slot...like in Deus Ex, E.Y.E, etc)
Why they're using these "Looter labels", I have no idea. ( Honestly, they're just making this needlessly convoluted with colors/different descriptives... I would simply divide it into:
Standard/Classic weapons ( like in most FPS)...everyone can use them
High Tech...used by Military, Corporations, elite force, etc. Unless specifically found ( in environment), they're DNA incripted and cannot be automatically looted/used by the player
Prototypes...Cyberpunk version of "Uniques", weapons with really unique appearance/sounds/gameplay.

 

[Marquis_deShade]

Something we're all familiar with that may give a chuckle that, so far, doesn't appear to be the case with weapons in CP 2077, is the old level requirement to use.
Viva la Dirt League illustrates this, and many other ridiculous, silly, and video-gamey cliches, tropes, standards and other such in their many videos, like this one -

There's a plethora of videos they do that apply to many topics well discussed across several threads here, though they mainly illustrate them via their Epic NPC Man series set in a generic fantasy adventure, and also Pub G.

 

[Suhiira]

Something we're all familiar with <clip>

FAR to familiar!

"Way back when" (c.a. 1975) when D&D was new some friends and I were doing Blackmoor [[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackmoor_(campaign_setting) ]] and as per the rules (at the time) we were generating loot randomly. Our 4th level Paladin wound up with a Holy Avenger. Made killing stuff SOOOOOOOOOO much easier.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

"once Geralt held that legendary sword, he realized it was pure trash even when compared to what bandits were using at that time, so he sold it to the blacksmith in Kaer Trolde, few steps away from the throne that sword protected for generations of an craite"

I'll just post it here for your convenience, so as not to create misunderstandings.

Loostreaks:


Other user:



Loostreaks:

Spoiler: OT

Yeah, everything's fine. We organized a reunion with friends so I had to drive for 900Km in 48 hours, haven't slept much and just as soon as I got back home I had to deal with the classic 5 minutes of bullshit we all have to deal with on daily basis.

Thanks for the post!

So, hope has always been there, otherwise I wouldn't have been here at all. What's the point of giving feedbacks if you don't hope they'll be read? If CDPR will present a "TW3, but in FPP" version of CP, which is my biggest fear, I'll probably give a last feedback and disappear. Not because I'm some kind of childish grown up man or whatever, only because it means that their idea of RPG has nothing in common with mine, which makes my feedback - and time - useless. I'll play the game very gladly anyway, ofc. Just disappointed that I'll need to wait for some other company to meet my needs and probably won't happen soon.

Spoiler: TW3

just to make ti clear: I LOVED TW3. One of my favorite games ever, just needed to reduce suspension of disbelief of 70% to become perfect. Not reducing magic and time travel, just the loot and level system, things that destroyed immersion.

The colored coded items never meant that TW3's system was back, at the same time, it doesn't mean it wasn't back.
Regarding numbers, lack of specific stats (weight) and stuff like that, we can't really assume anything since it was clearly work in progress. Plus, no weight could actually mean infinite inventory (same as destiny), which would be even worse than TW3. We can't even compare the shotgun's DPS with the one from other weapons, since balancing is one of the last things done in videogames and way too often continues after launch with patches, in particular now that we know CP2077 will be released 2 years-ish after that demo. Moreover

subdermal grip [...] also increases the base damage on all connected weapons

Spoiler

I hate this concept so much I've learned this sentece by heart thogether with "theeeeese guys are levels higher than us"

What we know is that levels ARE in the game for sure (shown and confirmed many times), how limiting those will be, we don't know. It's possible that we won't have any level gated gear, but enemies' level will be an hard gate that scales comparing to our: our shotgun will always deal 79DPS, but if the enemies' HP and DPS will scale. So it's exactly like TW3 with the difference that we don't see our numbers changing. Videogames use levels to control progression, so that you can't go in a place and kill some guys until your level amtches the required one. That's their main purpose. Unless levels will be just an advice from the game to summarize enemies' characteristics, so lvl 5 is weak with street weapons and little to no cyberware and lvl 30 is max-tac or full borg conversion. I honestly don't buy it, though.

My point is that we'll see more in 6 days and - IMHO - speculating today is a little late and at the same time a little early, since less than 1 week is nothing. MS conference will have at least a trailer, probably a short gameplay one, then journalists will have presentation and interviews, write articles and publish them during E3 (hopefully the guy I know will get the answers we need instead of some "work in progress, not ready to share details") and at some point in the future CDPR wll give some video to the second class dirty peasant gamers who can't ask for days off and fly to LA like us.

 

[Marquis_deShade]

"once Geralt held that legendary sword, he realized it was pure trash even when compared to what bandits were using at that time, so he sold it to the blacksmith in Kaer Trolde, few steps away from the throne that sword protected for generations of an craite"

Spoiler: OT

Yeah, everything's fine. We organized a reunion with friends so I had to drive for 900Km in 48 hours, haven't slept much and just as soon as I got back home I had to deal with the classic 5 minutes of bullshit we all have to deal with on daily basis.

Thanks for the post!

So, hope has always been there, otherwise I wouldn't have been here at all. What's the point of giving feedbacks if you don't hope they'll be read? If CDPR will present a "TW3, but in FPP" version of CP, which is my biggest fear, I'll probably give a last feedback and disappear. Not because I'm some kind of childish grown up man or whatever, only because it means that their idea of RPG has nothing in common with mine, which makes my feedback - and time - useless. I'll play the game very gladly anyway, ofc. Just disappointed that I'll need to wait for some other company to meet my needs and probably won't happen soon.

Spoiler: TW3

just to make ti clear: I LOVED TW3. One of my favorite games ever, just needed to reduce suspension of disbelief of 70% to become perfect. Not reducing magic and time travel, just the loot and level system, things that destroyed immersion.

The colored coded items never meant that TW3's system was back, at the same time, it doesn't mean it wasn't back.
Regarding numbers, lack of specific stats (weight) and stuff like that, we can't really assume anything since it was clearly work in progress. Plus, no weight could actually mean infinite inventory (same as destiny), which would be even worse than TW3. We can't even compare the shotgun's DPS with the one from other weapons, since balancing is one of the last things done in videogames and way too often continues after launch with patches, in particular now that we know CP2077 will be released 2 years-ish after that demo. Moreover

Spoiler

I hate this concept so much I've learned this sentece by heart thogether with "theeeeese guys are levels higher than us"

What we know is that levels ARE in the game for sure (shown and confirmed many times), how limiting those will be, we don't know. It's possible that we won't have any level gated gear, but enemies' level will be an hard gate that scales comparing to our: our shotgun will always deal 79DPS, but if the enemies' HP and DPS will scale. So it's exactly like TW3 with the difference that we don't see our numbers changing. Videogames use levels to control progression, so that you can't go in a place and kill some guys until your level amtches the required one. That's their main purpose. Unless levels will be just an advice from the game to summarize enemies' characteristics, so lvl 5 is weak with street weapons and little to no cyberware and lvl 30 is max-tac or full borg conversion. I honestly don't buy it, though.

My point is that we'll see more in 6 days and - IMHO - speculating today is a little late and at the same time a little early, since less than 1 week is nothing. MS conference will have at least a trailer, probably a short gameplay one, then journalists will have presentation and interviews, write articles and publish them during E3 (hopefully the guy I know will get the answers we need instead of some "work in progress, not ready to share details") and at some point in the future CDPR wll give some video to the second class dirty peasant gamers who can't ask for days off and fly to LA like us.

Yeah the whole level disparity thing in TW3 I thought was pretty silly.
In many cases it was essentially this:

Generic bandits in one area are like 20 levels higher than bandits that fall over when you just look at them?

Don't get me wrong, underneath the clunky bits of TW3s mitten-handed flaws there is an absolutely phenomenal game, it's just a little disappointing when there's those bits you run into that'll make you eye roll yourself into the next dimension.

The level disparity thing, for instance, discourages exploration, and free roaming. I certainly hope they've worked out a better less immersive-breaking system that presents us with a fairly universal challenge without making your progression worthless.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

The level disparity thing, for instance, discourages exploration, and free roaming. I certainly hope they've worked out a better less immersive-breaking system that presents us with a fairly universal challenge without making your progression worthless.

Totally agreed. Not only it's immersion-breaking and makes exploration impossible out of the area they want us to be, but also makes the progression worthless when the only difference between a low level enemy and a high level enemy is the little number (= HP, defence and DPS) above their heads. Fighting them is the same gaming experience, you don't progress for real, you just have better numbers.

 

[Snowflakez]

My point is that we'll see more in 6 days and - IMHO - speculating today is a little late and at the same time a little early, since less than 1 week is nothing.

Fair enough!

 

[Suhiira]

In many cases it was essentially this:

LOVE THESE !

 

[Mevik1023]

I've said this before in other threads, and this thread can probably be merged once more with the "Dream Ideas" or "What I don't want" threads, but ...
I think that levels should be removed, at least from the player's view as part of the First Person Perspective experience, and Character-driven SUBJECTIVE Perception implemented in its place.

I'd love to see an attempt at this, mostly because I've been concerned that stats are going to trivialize visual customization in a world that's allegedly all about style. It'd also build the game's personality, separating it from the fear that 2077 could end up as a fairly generic (albeit impressive) shooter. Borderlands can't get away with it as a game that's all about quality loot, even though it'd be the right sense of humor.

Maybe more techy/analytical personality builds can see or live by the stats, while others can't?

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

I'd love to see an attempt at this, mostly because I've been concerned that stats are going to trivialize visual customization in a world that's allegedly all about style. It'd also build the game's personality, separating it from the fear that 2077 could end up as a fairly generic (albeit impressive) shooter. Borderlands can't get away with it as a game that's all about quality loot, even though it'd be the right sense of humor.

Maybe more techy/analytical personality builds can see or live by the stats, while others can't?

demo showed a sub-menù called "style", maybe we'll be able to choose clothes ignoring gear to some extent. Aaaaaand I'm speculating less than 24 hours after I said we shouldn't speculate now. Bravo to me. Bravo. -.-'

MS conference is exactly in 6 days and 3 minutes.

 

[Marquis_deShade]

demo showed a sub-menù called "style", maybe we'll be able to choose clothes ignoring gear to some extent. Aaaaaand I'm speculating less than 24 hours after I said we shouldn't speculate now. Bravo to me. Bravo. -.-'

MS conference is exactly in 6 days and 3 minutes.

Well, as much as I like to have a pipe dream about CDPR showing up, saying "It's Ready" and dropping the mic while everyone wees themselves in uncontrollable excitement requiring an immediate hose down of everyone and everything just to keep all of E3 from exploding, I suspect we still have at least a small bit of a ways to go before we get a "It's Ready" moment.

Thus, if we do indeed have some dev time left, we can still put some little candles of hope up in the window, just in case someone important has a gonzo eureka moment and decides to do the whole subjective perception thing and toss the magic numbers floating over characters heads into the old and busted bin.

The Cyberpunk "style over substance" deal could work really well with a subjective perception system.
A weak corpo trust fund baby kid dressed in all the super chic clothes, with the best of the best cyberware on show could impress the hell out of your character, even if that trust fund kid would probably die if you shook their hand too hard ... but, your character's impression and subjective view wouldn't see that. They might see lots of wow, and "i don't wanna mess with THAT one", and that's what you, the player see through your character's eyes.

Basically, the game is constantly lying to you, based on your character's stats, and experience with things to know better, and the longer you're in Night City, and the more you know and experience, the less fuzzy that subjective perception gets.

eh. Hopes and dreams. I'll keep a little candle in the window til release, and even then, if as is likely not, then, maybe a modder could might mebbe work out some behind the scenes maths to translate what's seen by V into a subjective view.

 

[CybrisPunk]

Don't have them. I don't want arbitrary numbers gamily attached to gameplay elements such as enemies and loot; it trivializes the lore and makes progress feel pointless since there will be something slightly better just around the corner. Some things should be better, clearly, but it should be in service of gameplay and immersion both, without sacrificing either.

no one likes to Grind but.... when they don't think about it.. they secretly love it.
that's why 'smart' people loved Diablo 2 so much.
((((i dont want to start the whole shit show about bots and d2items.net...))))
set your brain on auto pilot. drift away on music and find some sick loot

 

[Bloodartist]

Actually this isn't an RPG element but more of an MMO/looter-shooter one.

Oh no. It is specifically interpreted as a computer RPG element as far as MANY developers are concerned. Those kinds who think that RPG is all about numbers, increasing your stats and collecting garbage. Not those developers like CDPR who think that RPG is about roleplaying.

The fear is justified. I don't want grinding to become the end-all be-all of the game, although this is highly unlikely to happen with CDPR I think.

The line where progression ends and grind begins is difficult to define, and everyone has their own opinions.

 

[Suhiira]

Oh no. It is specifically interpreted as a computer RPG element as far as MANY developers are concerned. Those kinds who think that RPG is all about numbers, increasing your stats and collecting garbage. Not those developers like CDPR who think that RPG is about roleplaying.

You do have something of a point.
But I think it's more that some dev's think that by implementing easy stuff, like a couple numbers and stats (after all writing and coding branching dialog is work), they can make games that appeal to both the FPS/RTS and RPG fans. And since so many recent games incorporate these features most "younger" (since about 2000) gamers think the number and stats ARE RPGs. But I'd wager few of us that were playing on the 80's and 90's would agree.

So my point stands.
They're not RPG elements, tho many mistakenly think they are.

The moment we’re talking about actual acids strong enough to irritate the skin, you already have bigger worries then the acid itself.
Frankly, I’m kinda surprised the people of CP77 aren’t all just cancerous, sterile blobs by this point.

Yeah, one of the big problems I have with Science Fantasy trying to pass itself off as Science Fiction.

I think we can all let something like FTL travel (hard to do "space opera" without it) or giant combat robots (in something like BattleTech that's designed around the concept) slide, and other stuff that's at least moderately plausible. But sometimes the things they try to pass off just totally ruins a movie/story/game for me.