RPG Mechanics: Skill Progression and Roles

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Snowflakez;n10950095 said:
Yeah, I agree with all this. Especially the speech stuff. Just saying what I think is likely. I don't think many game developers appreciate the nuance between different types of speech, even though they are very important for gameplay and roleplay.
You seem to have forgotten the folks that run CDPR were BIG Cyberpunk PnP fans back in the early post-Soviet days, remember Maximum Mike mentions they reminded him of stuff he'd forgotten. They know the difference. The real question is ... Is it worthwhile to have the difference represented in a video game where you don't have a practical way of dealing with subtle nuance?
 
Suhiira;n10950140 said:
You seem to have forgotten the folks that run CDPR were BIG Cyberpunk PnP fans back in the early post-Soviet days, remember Maximum Mike mentions they reminded him of stuff he'd forgotten. They know the difference. The real question is ... Is it worthwhile to have the difference represented in a video game where you don't have a practical way of dealing with subtle nuance?

I actually had forgotten that, yeah. As long as the people working on 2077 right now are the same "fans" from years ago (They've had a lot of employee shuffling, even some important folks), I guess I have less to fret about.
 
Snowflakez;n10950557 said:
I actually had forgotten that, yeah. As long as the people working on 2077 right now are the same "fans" from years ago (They've had a lot of employee shuffling, even some important folks), I guess I have less to fret about.
Yeah several of the higher ups were PnP players back in the day. Also, Maximum Mike is involved ... so I expect it to be heavily in the spirit of the PnP ... with some necessary alterations to accommodating the transfer to cRPG. I think mechanics are probably the least likely to turn out exactly the same. But as far as milieu goes, I'm very confident they'll have the right feel.
 
*Casts Necromancy*

All my old tables were borked when forum update happened. Wanted to return to this topic now that we have some substantial details. Keep in mind everything we've heard is based on a pre-alpha demo so stuff could change.

Character creation - https://www.gameinformer.com/preview/2018/06/12/impressions-and-details-from-50-minutes-of-gameplay

The demo begins with character creation. You select whether you wish to be a male or female and can design what they look like, right down to giving them scars, tattoos, hairstyles, makeup, glow effects, and a lot more. Your character is simply named V, an urban mercenary who takes on jobs that are too dangerous for most people. Who is V? You get to decide what kind of backstory he or she has by selecting from a variety of options in the backstory creator.

I don't know how deep this well goes, but all of the choices I quickly spied looked troubling, like being a runaway child. The choices you make directly affect the narrative as it unfolds. Your gender choice also plays a role in shaping the narrative.

Stats - https://www.pcgamer.com/cyberpunk-2077-has-a-cool-stat/
  1. Strength
  2. Constitution
  3. Reflexes
  4. Intelligence
  5. Tech
  6. Cool
Roles/Classes
  1. Solo
  2. Techie
  3. Netrunner
After determining your character's life path, you then select your position in the world, such as being a Netrunner, Techie, or Solo. CD Projekt Red says you can be a mix of them all if you want. You aren't really selecting a defined class, but more so your weaknesses and strengths, as the game features a fluid class system that allows you to customize it as you go.

https://www.gameinformer.com/preview/2018/06/12/impressions-and-details-from-50-minutes-of-gameplay

Two types of XPhttps://www.pcgamesn.com/cyberpunk-2077/street-cred

The first was described as core XP, which can be earned through completing main missions, the second is called Street Cred, and can only be earned through competing side missions. So, what is Street Cred? This XP can be used to access new vendors and Fixers, who are a type of quest giver in Cyberpunk 2077.

https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...r-answers-to-your-cp-2077-questions.10970951/

"Freedom is the biggest value for cyberpunks, so [players won’t] permanently join any faction. In the game you will be able to work for various factions, but it won't be possible to join them ... We're not planning to introduce any reputation indicators for factions. Your reputation will be measured by a general Street Cred - reflecting how you're seen by the street. You will be able to increase it through side missions and it will allow you to unlock access to additional content, such as new shops or new missions."

Skills, perks & augments all intertwine - https://www.techspot.com/news/75058...ssless-character-progression-wallrunning.html

Furthermore, characters will have access to skills, perks, and attributes which will govern how they interact with the world. For example, if a character doesn't have a high enough hacking skill to get through a door, they can use their engineering skill to pry open a nearby wall panel to force their way in.

https://www.polygon.com/2018/6/19/1...ameplay-release-date-pc-xbox-one-ps4-next-gen

players will be able to add abilities and perks to their character as they see fit

and

player performance will be heavily impacted by skills and other traditional forms of player progression

http://www.businessinsider.com/cybe...ize-your-class-as-you-play-through-the-game-5

There are three classes in the game — Solo, Techie, and Netrunner — and you can choose to focus on one skill set, or a combination of the three. The Solo class is focused on combat; Techies are focused on gadgets and machinery; and Netrunners can hack into computers, robots, or even into people's heads to manipulate or kill them.

And

You can unlock skills in the game and use them to your advantage. With a high enough engineering skill you can disassemble panels in walls to open up new paths, for instance.

https://www.vg247.com/2018/06/12/cy...c-bombs-bullet-time-everything-know-gameplay/

it’s also very clearly an RPG with abilities and passive skills.

and

Visiting a Ripper Doc will allow you to customise V with new abilities and skills. We saw V have her eyeball plucked out and replaced with an implant that enabled her to zoom in on enemies and scan items and materials for weak spots. She also got herself a new palm that gave her better grip, pumping out a little extra damage with every shot fired. This all costs money of course, and if you’re loaded you can go for blackmarket options of illegal military upgrades.

https://www.rpgsite.net/preview/7343-cyberpunk-2077-impressions-from-e3-2018

The tracking-bullet rifle combines with a learned skill to ricochet shots off of the wall to create a character with numerous engagement options. Or, a character that's purchased a visual augment in order to perceive enemy comm links can pair that ability with a wall running talent and melee blade equipment that can anchor into the wall, combining into a build that can disable enemy units from impromptu perches -- if they've hacked into the enemy network successfully. Combine this with quest specific triggers and narrative forks and the mind boggles at how many ways a certain chapter could potentially play out.

So it sounds to me like Stats, Skills, Perks, Cyberware & Roles are all related to character build & progression systems. It's sounds to me like "skills" are sometimes referred to as abilities by some article writers. And "stats" are sometimes referred to as attributes by article writers. I think perks are their own thing. Perhaps skills are activie abilities and perks are passive abilities? The skills sound like they may be organized by role ... and sound like there are multiple ranks for each skill that can effect whether certain actions can be performed in certain circumstances (as implied by "not enough hacking skill" but had "enough engineering skill" ).

Street Cred sounds like it's a reputation system that unlocks side content as you go ... and is more gear / narrative focused than character progression focused. I would expect it to be more involved with the choice and consequence system than character build. That would logically leave traditional XP, cyberware and perhaps some other unknown systems as the tools that will unlock abilities, skills, perks, and maybe stats.

The big question mark is still humanity cost. A few articles discussed it as not really being seen as effecting the player in the demo. It's been confirmed the player can't become a cyberpsycho. I personally hope it has some effect on character build ... maybe like how toxicity was a limiter to alchemy in the witcher. I would like it if it had effects on dialogue options & street cred.

I will maybe work on coming up with a speculative look at how skills/stats/perks/gear/roles might work together based on what we have heard.
 
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There's the idea that it requires 10,000 hours of practice to become world class at any skill (now debunked), but it could still stand as a rough model for skill improvement (I hate the idea of progression, it's too linear and not really how things work). Actively engaging in some activity, regardless of what it is, means you will improve to some degree over time.

The model could work by randomly checking whether the skill improves each time it's used, with a modifier increasing with each use until 'improvement' happens. A critical success would mean extra improvement. This could be inversely proportional with your base skill. The lower your skill the easier it is to improve (1%+1% accumulated until improved), the higher skill the more difficult it becomes (.00001%+.0001%). It would be a fairly easy thing to implement in a cRPG.
 
*Casts Necromancy*

So it sounds to me like Stats, Skills, Perks, Cyberware & Roles are all related to character build & progression systems. It's sounds to me like "skills" are sometimes referred to as abilities by some article writers. And "stats" are sometimes referred to as attributes by article writers. I think perks are their own thing. Perhaps skills are activie abilities and perks are passive abilities? The skills sound like they may be organized by role ... and sound like there are multiple ranks for each skill that can effect whether certain actions can be performed in certain circumstances (as implied by "not enough hacking skill" but had "enough engineering skill" ).

The big question mark is still humanity cost. A few articles discussed it as not really being seen as effecting the player in the demo. It's been confirmed the player can't become a cyberpsycho. I personally hope it has some effect on character build ... maybe like how toxicity was a limiter to alchemy in the witcher. I would like it if it had effects on dialogue options & street cred.

I will maybe work on coming up with a speculative look at how skills/stats/perks/gear/roles might work together based on what we have heard.
Necromancy, is, like, really not cool, Rawls. :( It's super nasty and not happy or fun at all. Please don't use that word anymore.

I think it's super-duper likely that skills are totally passive, because, like, they can be used for checks and stuff, passively, you know? Maybe they passively also increase weapon (EEK!) control and stuff.

And perks, may be like, abilities and stuff, like in the Witcher 3 with the spinny sword swing attacks.
 
"You can unlock skills in the game and use them to your advantage. With a high enough engineering skill you can disassemble panels in walls to open up new paths, for instance. "

Goddamit @Rawls I did not know that detail. And now I want to raise my Tech skill. BUT I HAVE NOT THE POINTS FOR THAT AND GOD LEVEL COMBAT/NETRUN SKILLS.

Arrrrrrrrgh!

My morning is ruined!

(NOTE: I am not playing the game. I have never played the game. I WISH I had played the game.)
 
"You can unlock skills in the game and use them to your advantage. With a high enough engineering skill you can disassemble panels in walls to open up new paths, for instance. "

Goddamit @Rawls I did not know that detail. And now I want to raise my Tech skill. BUT I HAVE NOT THE POINTS FOR THAT AND GOD LEVEL COMBAT/NETRUN SKILLS.

Arrrrrrrrgh!

My morning is ruined!

(NOTE: I am not playing the game. I have never played the game. I WISH I had played the game.)
You can be good at anything and everything if you set your mind to it! :D
 
I'd really want some details on whether the skillchecks use weighted probability through RNG or (boringly) hard yes/no gates. And of course what skills, perks, abilities there are.

Not sure if I'd personally be up to creating a speculative table of how things might work at this point anymore only to see how wrong I've been in few months (knowing that my speculation would be coloured with personal taste... trying to be realistic wouldn't be fun because it'd not be very creative and it'd mostly be about predicting the worst), though.
 
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I think that some of the skill should change the physical appearance of your character but these skill tree should look more like something like Assassin's creed origins and less Witcher 3 wild hunt should show what the skill does in the game.

Not to forget but the vehicles we have should also have skill that we can choose from like being able to go on to two wheels or get extended nitrous.
 
Haven't they said that Cyberpunk 2077 rely on skill checks, like a "physical" RPG does it?

If that's the case I hope they don't make it so its like "if you are level 1 in persuasion (if there is something like that)" then you are guaranteed to always success against certain NPCs. Simply because they are low level or have low resist. I think there should always be a chance for someone to resist the player, as it can't result in something that they weren't expecting and forcing them to adapt to whatever happens next.

Also I hope that they add a bit more depth to it, so for instant if the player try to bully/force someone into doing something that they normally wouldn't do, the player skill should be affected not only by this npc, but also take into account if they have friends with them, thought of like an effect of this NPC feeling confident due to having some backup. But also street cred should and most likely will play a role. Also gender could play a role, so female V's might have benefits over certain male NPC and vice versa.

If there is an experience system, I hope they make it like final fantasy (As far as i know). Where you earn xp during your missions etc. But you don't receive or level up before you rest/sleep. I really think that is a great way of making resting and using ones apartment for something useful, other than just a place to store items, spawn point or fast travel locations or what exactly they are used for. They could even make it so you could buy different furniture that would boost xp gained a little which again would make the apartments more interesting and integrated into the game.

Also I don't think certain options should be locked behind specific perks or skills, the player should be able to attempt something even if they suck at it. Meaning if the player don't have "Persuasion skill" then they can't do anything related to that. They should be able to, even though It will obviously fail a lot should they try, but it always seems a bit weird when certain choices are unavailable due to a skill. Think its better to integrate it through knowledge, so options are unavailable if the player haven't gotten the correct intel, either through not doing certain side quests or from lack of actually trying to get such information, whether that's getting it from a bar, through threatening someone, buying the information or whatever.

Basically I just hope that they don't dumb down the whole skill system, but instead bring back the good old RPG systems with lots of stats and stuff to put points in. Hate how many RPG games today, does that as if the players are unable to figure it out. I think most people that like RPG games also like all the stats, skills and perks and mixing it all together. Personally for me, TW3 skills system is a bit to simple and a bit boring.
 
I'd really want some details on whether the skillchecks use weighted probability through RNG or (boringly) hard yes/no gates.
Either approach has it's advantages and disadvantages.
I don't think CDPR will see hard gates as necessary, if you want to save spam that's your business.

They're not out to create a game only the "best" players can excel at (i.e. "Dark Souls"), but rather one everyone can enjoy.
 
Either approach has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Hard gates are more gamey with more boring goal states (either yes or no), while it can produce more intense character progression (for the need to open those gates so you can actually do something). But RNG works more fairly, more organically and naturally, and allows for more intrique from the outcomes (good or bad) through the weighted chance.

I will always favor RNG over thresholds. Unless the case is about expressing certain knowledge from the characters part.

I don't think CDPR will see hard gates as necessary, if you want to save spam that's your business.

I certainly hope they don't. Savescumming is indeed the players own prerogative or burden, which ever way it might go, not the games. And there are ways to discourage it.
 
@kofeiiniturpa @Suhiira

Combat is "stats-driven," apparently.


Haven't watched the whole video. But thought you guys might want to check this out.

Based on Reddit comments, some people are REALLY terrified of the idea of combat actually being RPG combat, and not shooter combat.

Oh boy.
 
@kofeiiniturpa @Suhiira

Combat is "stats-driven," apparently.


Haven't watched the whole video. But thought you guys might want to check this out.

Based on Reddit comments, some people are REALLY terrified of the idea of combat actually being RPG combat, and not shooter combat.

Oh boy.

I think we've always known it was state driven, at least that was my prior understanding. The question is how it's implemented. Stat-driven can mean that stats either determine the damage done and maybe glancing/crits, or it can impact the hit rate, where you hit on the body, etc. For instance, you could argue that The Division is stat-driven, but it's not really fully RPG style stat-driven
 
I think we've always known it was state driven, at least that was my prior understanding. The question is how it's implemented. Stat-driven can mean that stats either determine the damage done and maybe glancing/crits, or it can impact the hit rate, where you hit on the body, etc. For instance, you could argue that The Division is stat-driven, but it's not really fully RPG style stat-driven

True. But this at least means it isn't pure FPS. There is SOME layer of stats at play here. Whether that's weapon spray/accuracy, recoil, reload speed, or something else.
 
@kofeiiniturpa @Suhiira

Combat is "stats-driven," apparently.


Haven't watched the whole video. But thought you guys might want to check this out.

Based on Reddit comments, some people are REALLY terrified of the idea of combat actually being RPG combat, and not shooter combat.

Oh boy.


On another note snow, what do you think are the chances of empathy related skills making into the skills for cyberpunk2077?

From what i read, it seems charisma and other skills will exist, but it's unknown to anyone what they may be. Also, If rumors are right about sub-classes perhaps you can unlock a skill that uniquely plays into your rockerboy perk. But that is all speculation.
 
On another note snow, what do you think are the chances of empathy related skills making into the skills for cyberpunk2077?
Well there is no empathy stat, that is confirmed. I'm still somewhat hopeful that there will be some sort of humanity cost mechanic ... but we haven't heard about it and they have confirmed we will not be able to become full on cyberpsychos, which makes sense. As skills ... not too many of the EMP skills would translate well to a cRPG from pen and paper.

The pen and paper EMP stats are: Animal Handling, Aura Reading, Human Perception, Interview, Leadership, Palmistry, Perform, Persuasion & Fast Talk, Psychic, Seduction, Simper, Voodoo Divination, Social, Tarot Lore and Trance.

I feel like Aura Reading, Palmistry, Psychic, Simper, Voodoo Divination, Tarot Lore and Trance have 0% chance too be in. They're too specific or don't fit in with cRPG mechanics.

I would also be surprised if animal handling, interview, seduction, social or human perception were stats ... though I wouldn't think you we crazy for arguing otherwise. Interview & seduction I think would both fit within persuasion. Social and human perception are probably better left to the player picking up tips during interviews than a skill ... although I could see one of them working as a way to make new dialogue options available. Animal handling probably could work I suppose ... but I doubt it would be useful enough to make it a meaningful skill. I'm sure some would argue that may not be a bad thing.

Leadership & Perform I could see being useful ... but would require systems built around them that I'm not sure would be supported.

Finally Persuasion & Fast Talk absolutely should be a skill IMO. Buy it could be influenced by Cool instead of EMP.
 
Well there is no empathy stat, that is confirmed. I'm still somewhat hopeful that there will be some sort of humanity cost mechanic ... but we haven't heard about it and they have confirmed we will not be able to become full on cyberpsychos, which makes sense. As skills ... not too many of the EMP skills would translate well to a cRPG from pen and paper.

The pen and paper EMP stats are: Animal Handling, Aura Reading, Human Perception, Interview, Leadership, Palmistry, Perform, Persuasion & Fast Talk, Psychic, Seduction, Simper, Voodoo Divination, Social, Tarot Lore and Trance.

I feel like Aura Reading, Palmistry, Psychic, Simper, Voodoo Divination, Tarot Lore and Trance have 0% chance too be in. They're too specific or don't fit in with cRPG mechanics.

I would also be surprised if animal handling, interview, seduction, social or human perception were stats ... though I wouldn't think you we crazy for arguing otherwise. Interview & seduction I think would both fit within persuasion. Social and human perception are probably better left to the player picking up tips during interviews than a skill ... although I could see one of them working as a way to make new dialogue options available. Animal handling probably could work I suppose ... but I doubt it would be useful enough to make it a meaningful skill. I'm sure some would argue that may not be a bad thing.

Leadership & Perform I could see being useful ... but would require systems built around them that I'm not sure would be supported.

Finally Persuasion & Fast Talk absolutely should be a skill IMO. Buy it could be influenced by Cool instead of EMP.


Humanity Loss is a confirm mechanic, And i'm pretty sure it is confirmed that you can't become a cyberpsycho, but you CAN get cyberpsychosis, just not stage zero obviously. If i'm wrong, the amount of ludo-narrative dissonance would be staggering. Also disappointing. Since humanity is in the game and you lose it via upgrades, Confirmed by madqueen herself. I'd imagine empathy is in the game but either hidden or not implemented yet, Or merged with cool (which would be weird.)

I'm thinking that seduction, social, interview are probably in the game. Leadership and Perform might be useful. Also, yeah persuasion & Fast Talk sound like a easy fit for it. I'm guessing it is really hard to know how skills will work when we have little to see to make proper speculation on. We know they're not going for hard dialogue locks and i've discussed that extensively, So my only theory is that skill checks and options are done behind the scenes and when you pick a dialogue option RNG takes places depending on your points invested into said skills and a situation plays out differently or the same depending on the outcomes of your skills, probably other factors as well like cyberware, gender, cool previous actions etc. Complex as fuck, but maybe that is what they're aiming for.

They said when it first was announced they wanted advanced RPG mechanics from the PnP, So i think they'll probably take a route that works well for that but for a FPP evolved system, if that makes sense.
 
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