RPG Mechanics: Skill Progression and Roles

[Snowflakez]

I'm not expecting perks to be game changing, and frankly would be very annoyed if they were. While I sort of understand the folks that don't want to see them be mere skill increases what else would you suggest? Saying you don't like it is fine, and totally useless, come up with a viable option.

Sure - here's a few, some of which CDPR has already described.

• Agility-focused abilities. Wall-running and such. You may not like it, but it's in the game.
• For Techie, perhaps they gain the understanding to use a small spiderbot they can buy and use for scouting or other purposes.
• Again for Techie, the ability to craft various gadgets - specialized grenades, unique ammunition, or even small, ramshackle bits of cyberware. These could be separate abilities, depending on how gameplay-changing they are.
• For Solo, an ability that, for a short period of time, reduces recoil substantially (perhaps a "focus" ability) and improves reload speed.
• For Netrunner, access to stronger in-the-net abilities. I have no idea what these would be because I know nothing about the Net in 2077 (not 2020). The ability to hack additional objects and targets, though the effectiveness should/could still be governed by a separate hacking skill.
• For Solo, access to additional bits of cyberware that are strictly geared towards combat, and the ability to utilize them in more interesting ways - hooking into walls and dropping on people, for example.
• For whichever class has the best stealth focus, stealth-oriented abilities that are not specifically tied to the stealth skill (which would presumably make you quieter), such as nonlethal takedowns, access to sleep darts (even if they aren't fast-acting), some sort of distraction hacking ability for netrunner...

I can go on.

Bear in mind, these are basic ideas I came up with in minutes. You seemed to be implying it was not possible (or not practical) to have abilities like this. Some of these could be mere stat bonuses, but not all, certainly, and I'm not a game designer so it's not my job to begin with. But if I can do it... If I can come up with even a few decent ability ideas... surely people who have been working on games and more specifically RPGs for years can do far better.

Plus, y'know, they get paid for it.

 

[4meg]

Based on what I'm hearing about Netrunning so far, a slightly Fixer ability of sourcing the best ICE breakers, code, and hardware would be of paramount importance.

Techs could have a field repair ability. This works in conjunction with the jury-rig skill.

Solos could have the ability to bluff military/police/militia types. Not directly related to fighting, but knowing the mentality of these type of people could be incredibly beneficial.

 

[Suhiira]

You seemed to be implying it was not possible (or not practical) to have abilities like this.

Not at all, if I seemed to be my apologies.
That was intended for the folks that don't bother to suggest alternatives when they're unsatisfied with something.

If there's some reasonable explanation for wall running I'll be perfectly fine with it (GeckSkin maybe). But to just add features because they're "kwel" or "everybody else has them" I'm not. And many amazing things and abilities can (and I'm sure will) be in CP2077. All I want is a "why" and "how".

Now the spiderbot as a perk makes perfect sense. It's something you acquire during the game and it makes no sense you'd just be able to use it out of the box. A perk you earn by studying the manuals and practicing in your off-hours makes sense.

 

[Snowflakez]

Not at all, if I seemed to be my apologies.
That was intended for the folks that don't bother to suggest alternatives when they're unsatisfied with something.

If there's some reasonable explanation for wall running I'll be perfectly fine with it (GeckSkin maybe). But to just add features because they're "kwel" or "everybody else has them" I'm not. And many amazing things and abilities can (and I'm sure will) be in CP2077. All I want is a "why" and "how".

Now the spiderbot as a perk makes perfect sense. It's something you acquire during the game and it makes no sense you'd just be able to use it out of the box. A perk you earn by studying the manuals and practicing in your off-hours makes sense.

No worries, I wasn't offended either way.

Yeah, I didn't mean to sound confrontational with that bit about wall-running, I'm not 100% sold on it either (although it's a neat idea for sure), just trying to avoid a discussion about it because it wasn't relevant to my overall point.

I don't mind the occasional stat-bonus-only perk, just to be clear. I mean... even the games with the BEST perk systems have stuff like that. I just don't want that to be the only type of perks you have because it would (to me) feel a bit unsatisfying.

Stuff like faster movement in stealth, or quicker this, more accurate that, whatever... I'm all for that. As long as there's variety.

 

[Mebrilia]

Ah, okay. Well yes, in that case, we are in the same boat. I loved New Vegas' system, but I admit I didn't find most of the perks terribly interesting.

If we look at what CDPR is already planning for some of the perks -- wall running, double jumping and such -- that seems to be much more focused on "abilities" as opposed to "you now do 20% more damage with guns!"

Loved New Vegas, and I wouldn't be unhappy with a system like that here (especially as it relates to skills), but the specifics I would want to be more substantial.

Perk in new vegas were indeed very interesting some of them were just over the top fluff but you had also amazing perks to enhance your character with roleplay options.

Things like:
Morning person: Your character was more active in daylight
Nerd: your character was slight weaker on combat but had a boost on the knowledge skills

And so on.
You could also roll a character that needed to wear glasses to be effective or it had a malus on perc.

Post automatically merged: Jul 28, 2018

Perk based only systems sucks.
Look at skyrim or fallout4 you will raise skill that them alone have no effect (in skyrim) if you wanted them to be effective you had to stick a point on a perk so in the end you would grind and grind just to take 1 perk point.
There was not diversity between character every player had in the end a character quite similiar to another while in morrowind characters were so different than many times required also a different Gameplay approach.

 

[Snowflakez]

Perk in new vegas were indeed very interesting some of them were just over the top fluff but you had also amazing perks to enhance your character with roleplay options.

I disagree. I think the vast majority of them were quite boring, flat stat bonuses. Whether or not you get a bonus during the day or at night is inconsequential to me, it doesn't affect my playstyle in any way. Maybe it did for others, in which case great...

TLDR: Flat stat bonuses, no matter how they are spun, don't grab my attention. Especially not when they are supposed to represent three distinct playstyles.

 

[Loostreaks]

Perk based only systems sucks.
Look at skyrim or fallout4 you will raise skill that them alone have no effect (in skyrim) if you wanted them to be effective you had to stick a point on a perk so in the end you would grind and grind just to take 1 perk point.
There was not diversity between character every player had in the end a character quite similiar to another while in morrowind characters were so different than many times required also a different Gameplay approach.

I don't see how. You had basic attributes that increased classic stats ( melee damage, mana, health, etc) and skills that increased % it's success/use or general effectiveness ( like athletics/running faster); That's it.
Skyrim/Fallout 4 was not by any means complex here, but perks would affect your gameplay more substantially: like learning a two handed attack charge, silent roll, slow mo block, etc, etc ( along with passive benefits).
In both, char building was essentially become a master of everything as long as you keep on playing long enough.

Perks ( when done well) are essentially extraordinary talents/abilities that allow you to do a lot more outside of basic function of given skill.

Something you can not learn typically all on your own ( or it would take much longer period of time): this is why I like when RPGs use trainers...it makes sense in the world, can be used as quest rewards, and it more involves economy.

Or they can use the net for this: player can download online discourses ( for $) and then acquire a perk ( if you have XP). it's very important for Cyberpunk, that there is always economy of decision making throughout the game.

"Ok, done with that job, earned a few eddies, along with some experience. What to do now? Order a backup Trauma team call? Upgrade my car? Buy some high tech gear, ammo, weapon mods? Some intel on the next few jobs? Or buy some online VR firearm training to acquire a new perk?"

Your skill in Hacking would increase your general efficiency with it: time out, what level of security you can "crack", etc.
Netrunner perks would drastically extend allow you what you can do with it: control turrets, upload very specialized viruses, rewrite AI subroutines, etc.

In any case, I hope they minimize generic passive benefits here. I'd rather have 10 level ups ( for my character) and each openingg unique gameplay possibilities, than 50 with mostly bland options.

 

[Mebrilia]

I think the progression system of the pen and paper was absolutely perfect...

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I don't see how. You had basic attributes that increased classic stats ( melee damage, mana, health, etc) and skills that increased % it's success/use or general effectiveness ( like athletics/running faster); That's it.

One disadvantage is the perk design. They're often over the top, ridiculous abilities or flat, percentile bonuses. Congratulations, your character can now leap a 14 story building in a single bound or get +20% more fire damage. The concept behind perks is perfectly fine. They provide a means to individualize a character. In CP a Solo might be a Solo but, depending on the player choice in perk assignment, the class itself might behave slightly differently. Say, a stealthy, ambush type Solo vs an in your face, brute bent on solving combat situations with a head on approach. This difference is the purpose of perks.

Systems using perks exclusively also tend to be simplified. There aren't a lot of ways to customize a character. RPG players like a plethora of ways to customize a character. Granted, Skyrim wasn't exclusively a perk system. It also had skills and stats (health, mana, stamina).

Perks ( when done well) are essentially extraordinary talents/abilities that allow you to do a lot more outside of basic function of given skill.

I would agree with this statement with the exception of the extraordinary component of it. I think of a perk as a unique ability the player character can unlock. It doesn't have to be a huge game-changer. It doesn't have to be a simple percentile bonus to some other action or ability either. It just has to be different, and offer something unique. Snowflakez offered some decent examples earlier in the thread.

A skill is a different animal entirely. Skills are more of a proficiency in a particular task or action type. They're more global and less specific in nature. Put differently, the difference between a skill and a perk is less about overall impact and more about specificity or uniqueness. Swordsmanship, or general ability to use swords, is a skill. Something like, say, Whirl or Rend in W3 is more in line with a perk.

I'm not claiming you're wrong, by the way. Simply stating a different way to think of a perk .

 

[Rawls]

Again for Techie, the ability to craft various gadgets - specialized grenades, unique ammunition, or even small, ramshackle bits of cyberware. These could be separate abilities, depending on how gameplay-changing they are.

I think something like demolitions or chemistry or cyberware or other crafting stuff makes more sense as skills that get leveled up the more you use them. I think perks that relate to them could be some perks like trip wire or booby trap (unnoticeable demolitions) for demolitions. Field Surgery (revive ally) or Street Deal (being able to sell black market things you craft using chemistry) could be perks related to chemistry. A perk like disguised cyberware could be one that relates to the skill of crafting cyberware ... so you could only make cyberware look natural or armored IF have the appropriate perk. I'm just throw out some random ideas ... but that would make the most sense to me.

For Netrunner, access to stronger in-the-net abilities. I have no idea what these would be because I know nothing about the Net in 2077 (not 2020). The ability to hack additional objects and targets, though the effectiveness should/could still be governed by a separate hacking skill.

I would guess some perks related to netrunning would include something to make you harder to detect while netrunning, something to give you longer defenses to counter hacking once your detected, something to let you netrun through puzzles more quickly. That sort of stuff.

For whichever class has the best stealth focus, stealth-oriented abilities that are not specifically tied to the stealth skill (which would presumably make you quieter), such as nonlethal takedowns, access to sleep darts (even if they aren't fast-acting), some sort of distraction hacking ability for netrunner...

Yeah agree with this. Silent take downs, maybe whistling a person over to grab their attention, attacking from above, silent climbing, maybe an evasion perk that makes enemies return to their normal search patter more quickly (the cRPG representation of you being better able to hide than most).

 

[Loostreaks]

One disadvantage is the perk design. They're often over the top, ridiculous abilities or flat, percentile bonuses. Congratulations, your character can now leap a 14 story building in a single bound or get +20% more fire damage. The concept behind perks is perfectly fine. They provide a means to individualize a character. In CP a Solo might be a Solo but, depending on the player choice in perk assignment, the class itself might behave slightly differently. Say, a stealthy, ambush type Solo vs an in your face, brute bent on solving combat situations with a head on approach. This difference is the purpose of perks.

Systems using perks exclusively also tend to be simplified. There aren't a lot of ways to customize a character. RPG players like a plethora of ways to customize a character. Granted, Skyrim wasn't exclusively a perk system. It also had skills and stats (health, mana, stamina).



I would agree with this statement with the exception of the extraordinary component of it. I think of a perk as a unique ability the player character can unlock. It doesn't have to be a huge game-changer. It doesn't have to be a simple percentile bonus to some other action or ability either. It just has to be different, and offer something unique. Snowflakez offered some decent examples earlier in the thread.

A skill is a different animal entirely. Skills are more of a proficiency in a particular task or action type. They're more global and less specific in nature. Put differently, the difference between a skill and a perk is less about overall impact and more about specificity or uniqueness. Swordsmanship, or general ability to use swords, is a skill. Something like, say, Whirl or Rend in W3 is more in line with a perk.

I'm not claiming you're wrong, by the way. Simply stating a different way to think of a perk .

Don't really have a problem with it, so long as it is within reason: if we want to get rid of all "not realistic" elements, then 95% of rpg elements also have to go. (Wallrun? Fine. Double Jump...ehh, no)

Perks are great, because they add more dynamic element to char building, next to stats and skills. Latter more serve a purpose of defining your character and is usually done ( in player's mind) before you've even started the game, so they are more linear and "rigid". They can also use pro/con approach, like in Kingdom Come deliverance, which opens even more possibilities.

This is why even in older Black Isle games, everyone loved the perks more than any other aspect of levelling your character...there is a greater variety of combinations there that can lead to more interesting, specialized builds.

Problem is when developers start looking at it, through only basic numbers and end up conflating all three into one. ( Bethesda is text book example of this)

Strength adds + melee damage...why not just replace it with a perk?
Skill improvement adds more efficiency to using it...perk can do the same.

Perks can't replace stats when it comes to defining character in classic body/mental/personality parameters, or used the same for equipment restriction ( this is why they replace it with "Lvl" restriction, which works poorly as it requires no player investment)

Skills do the same for general player profficiency and cover more ground so even less attractive skills ( like pickpocketing, diplomacy, etc) are used in game.

And when you have all three dependent/affecting one another, rpg mechanics are drastically more interesting/engaging.

But at the same time, it's silly how "hardcore" rpg player immediately flip out at the mention of the perks, because it leads to "dumbing down" ( ignoring that they've been used as long as stats and skills).

For what you said second, I actually thought the same.

That they are including skills as something separate from perks is a good sign that we'll have more non combat character building. ( Perks are typically far more simplistic when it comes to non combat/stealth, so devs end up scraping skills entirely for more "cool"/interesting perk system).
Inspection, they mentioned in the demo, will definitely be a skill.

 

[Snowflakez]

Skills do the same for general player profficiency and cover more ground so even less attractive skills ( like pickpocketing, diplomacy, etc) are used in game.

And when you have all three dependent/affecting one another, rpg mechanics are drastically more interesting/engaging.


Inspection, they mentioned in the demo, will definitely be a skill.

I agree with all of this, surprisingly, except the bit at the end about "hardcore" players because I think you are misrepresenting some people's concerns a bit.

I actually love perks, I just don't want them to come in place of skills and attributes, as they did in the Witcher 3. That's why I didn't find the game's progression system even remotely interesting, and I didn't care about testing out different builds at all. They tried to combine regular stat effects (typically associated with skills, which are great for that sort of thing) into a perk system and just mash 'em together. Bad idea, IMO, and it made the game's RPG elements more dull as a result.

In Cyberpunk 2077, I'm much more hopeful. Again... 3 LAYERS OF PROGRESSION in a mainstream, AAA title... that just blows my mind. Even if there aren't 40 skills. I mean... Come on, guys. This is exactly what so many of us have been asking for.

That's not including Cyberware, and possibly other non-implant tech that you unlock throughout the game.

 

[Suhiira]

So much here to respond to!
Please keep in mind I'm responding to the concepts NOT the opinions of the person.

Don't really have a problem with it, so long as it is within reason: if we want to get rid of all "not realistic" elements, then 95% of rpg elements also have to go. (Wallrun? Fine. Double Jump...ehh, no)

Certain "non realistic" concepts are inherent in any game by their very nature as games. You have limited options (pre defined by the game creator) as to how you can respond to any situation. And 90%+ of game mechanics are vastly simplified simulations of problem solving/resolution.

That said, I'm one of the most vocal critics of "non realism" around here but that's for two primary reasons:
1 - The setting/background (derived from CP2020) of THIS PARTICULAR GAME. I certainly don't expect "realism" in Minecraft or Doom.
2 - While many people enjoy the element of surprise/uncertainty that "non realistic" elements provide (nothing can be predicted or counted on) I find that a game that's overall "realism" is good with a small handful of "WTF" elements is disconcerting. Take for example a wargame; every element of the game is as close a simulation to reality as possible via the games engine/mechanics BUT there's a healing/repair mechanic in the game that allows you to restore units in moments. This totally and completely changes the very nature of the game away from the "reality" the rest of the games mechanics attempts to simulate simply because dead soldiers and damaged equipment don't need to be replaced.

This is why even in older Black Isle games, everyone loved the perks more than any other aspect of levelling your character...there is a greater variety of combinations there that can lead to more interesting, specialized builds.

Problem is when developers start looking at it, through only basic numbers and end up conflating all three into one. ( Bethesda is text book example of this)

Strength adds + melee damage...why not just replace it with a perk?
Skill improvement adds more efficiency to using it...perk can do the same.

Perks can't replace stats when it comes to defining character in classic body/mental/personality parameters, or used the same for equipment restriction ( this is why they replace it with "Lvl" restriction, which works poorly as it requires no player investment)

Skills do the same for general player profficiency and cover more ground so even less attractive skills ( like pickpocketing, diplomacy, etc) are used in game.

I think the main problem is people often look only at the end result and forget the method used to achieve it matters.

In the case of a character stats, they're usually pre-gameplay decisions that effect the entire nature of how you play a game.
Strong and dumb? Fast and smart? Diplomatic or combative? When some perk negates, or seriously limits, the inherent disadvantages your initial selection of character stats creates it makes that decision meaningless.

As to skills, in most cases skills are abilities have a basic (sometimes pitiful) ability to perform successfully at the start of a game but by the end you an reliably count on them ... IF you invested the skill points into them throughout the game. They're a long term investment. And a perks that significantly modify skills totally bypass that.

Perks should provide new ways to approach things not modify existing ones.

Elsewhere I used the example of the spiderbot apparently available in CP2077. It's not something the character can start the game with, it's quite probably something the character has zero experience with prior to running across it in the game. A perk that permits the character to use it makes perfect sense.

But at the same time, it's silly how "hardcore" rpg player immediately flip out at the mention of the perks, because it leads to "dumbing down" ( ignoring that they've been used as long as stats and skills).

I flip out over any poorly conceived or executed game mechanics not just perks, thank you very much.

I have zero issues with perks when "properly" implemented.

 

[Mebrilia]

Perks are bad when they make skills not important you can do this example by yourself boot up Skyrim raise the skills at max and don't put any perk on it.. Then spawn a leveled creature you will notice all the ennemy will be sponges absorbing the damage.

This because in the case of Skyrim skills are only needed as requirement in order to obtain perks. Fallout 4 is even worse because perks totally removed a robust character development tool ((the old system)) that not only allowed diversity between character but was a system designed to simulate an individual that had skills yes but also flaws, now in fallout 4 all character at max level end to be almost identical to each other and there is no way to differenciate that because the system is limited and static.

Perk should add or complement skills not replace it. This is why most game with perks disgust me.

Oblivion had hidden perks that were complementing the skills by unlocking side effect when you reached a skill.
Fallout new vegas had perks that were complementing the skills or in some cases could also give you a distinct tract to your character.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Don't really have a problem with it, so long as it is within reason: if we want to get rid of all "not realistic" elements, then 95% of rpg elements also have to go. (Wallrun? Fine. Double Jump...ehh, no)

It's not necessarily about realism. Yeah, most RPG mechanics and game mechanics aren't realistic. I had the impression a core element of CP was the parallels to reality. I also had the impression the CP universe was punishing and unforgiving. When you stray too far from reality, and allow characters to perform otherworldly feats, it's easy to get away from both themes.

But at the same time, it's silly how "hardcore" rpg player immediately flip out at the mention of the perks, because it leads to "dumbing down" ( ignoring that they've been used as long as stats and skills).

Perks as an overall concept aren't the issue. I'd wager most RPG players find them appealing for the reasons you outlined in your post. As with all character progression systems the simplification of game mechanics comes from the implementation. With perks it commonly comes in the form of flat bonuses to actions and abilities. It's redundant and uninteresting.

The entire purpose of a perk system is to offer more granularity in character design. Simplifying them into flat bonuses because the idea train stopped is not a good way to achieve this goal. Likewise, going overboard with the game changing bonuses leads to it's own set of problems. Suhiira pointed out a few earlier.

 

[Rawls]

So we know the stats (Strength, Constitution, Reflexes, Intelligence, Tech, Cool). We also know that skills (i.e. hacking, crafting, long arms & short arms) are progressed by successfully performing actions, and that perks are progressed based on XP and Street Cred. We also know that character progression is organized via a fluid class system where they player can focus on solo, techie and/or netrunner archetypes.

What follows is rampant speculation based upon what we do know.

Spoiler: RAMPANT SPECULATION

Sounds to me like skills will relate to more gradual and passive improvements, and that perks will be something we can invest points in to get more active improvements ... and we will get more points for perks as we increase our XP and/or street cred. Knowing all this ... here is my stab at what it might look like.

Skills would slowly rank up over time, when when you reach certain ranks, various bonuses are granted. I.E. reach rank 10 of Tracking and it increases distance where you are aware of target by 10%, allows for two targets to be identified at once.

Solo Skills:
(1) Long Arms - over time reduces weapon sway, recoil, reload times for shotguns, rifles and etc;
(2) Short Arms - over time reduces weapon sway, recoil, reload times for one handed projectile weapons (like handguns); (3) Endurance - increases stamina for brawling, melee, running distance, fast swimming, etc;
(4) Brawling - increases speed and damage of unarmed attacks, could unlock new moves at certain points (i.e. grapple, block, roundhouse kick or whatever;
(5) Melee - increases speed and damage of melee weapons (swords, mantis blades, big sticks), could unlock new moves at certain points;
(6) Dodge - makes it less likely you will be seriously hit while attempting to dodge;
(7) Tracking - lets player focus on specific targets so long as they are nearby without line of sight;
(8) Perception - makes clues appear more conspicuously while, also gives characters indicators if someone is lying;
(9) Stealth - makes the player harder to notice while sneaking or hiding;
(10) Toughness - makes the player more resistant to status effects (like hot, cold, etc) also reduces effects of being injured.

Perks would be more active abilities that you invest points in. The key is to make each perk be meaningful without being OP.

Solo Perks
(1) Focused Aim - allows player to take a breath to significantly reduce sway and target area;
(2) Quick Draw - allows player to draw small arms much more quickly;
(3) Ambush - ranged or area attacks deal additional damage when done successfully from sneaking/hiding.
(4) Ricochet Shot - allows player to aim deflections of shots off of some environmental structures;
(5) Evade - when in stealth and unseen by NPCs, reduces time it takes for NPCs to return to normal routine;
(6) Ambidextrous - less negative effects for duel wielding small melee or ranged weapons;
(7) Silent Strike - melee attacks while unseen deal significantly more damage;
(8) Counter - Increases chance to block/parry and slows down time after a successful block/parry for counter attack;
(9) Controlled Hyperventilation - makes stamina deplete more slowly, also increases time you can breath underwater;
(10) Expert Climber - makes player climb more quickly and exert less effort while climbing/hanging;
(11) Combat Sense - slows time for a brief period whenever a combat encounter begins;
(12) Intimidate - gives a chance to frighten enemies through certain actions or words;

Something like that would be the general idea. There would likely be multiple places for investment of points in each perk, granting additional bonuses/abilities. To interlock them with skills, it might make sense to gate of some perk ranks until there is enough progress in an associated skill (i.e. no ambush (iii) until you reach stealth rank 10). Something like that. I'm not gonna do a whole write up for all my skill perk ideas, but I will just mention other actions/skills I think may translate well to a cRPG.

Techie Skills: (1) Chemistry; (2) MedTech; (3) Demolitions; (4) Engineering; (5) Persuasion; (6) Cyberware Design; (7) Lockpicking; (8) Gunsmith; (9) Armorer; (10) Business Sense

Techie Perks: (1) Streetdeal; (2) Scavenger; (3) Scrapper; (4) Jury Rig; (5) Credibility; (6) Robotics; (7) Booby Trap; (8) Tolerance; (9) Connections; (10) Wardrobe and Style; (11) Field Surgery; (12) Concealed Merchandise

Netrunner Skills: (1) Interface; (2) Database Search; (3) System Knowledge; (4) Digital Lockpicking; (5) Braindance Use; (6) Surveillance; (7) Hacking Defenses; (8) Pick Pocket; (9) Deck Design; (10) Driving

Netrunner Perks: (1) Improved Hacking; (2) Manipulate Alarm; (3) Manipulate Machinery; (4) Manipulate Weapons; (5) Manipulate Comms; (6) Net Burglar; (7) Remote Interface; (8) Systems Editing; (9) Systems Forgery; (10) Deception; (11) Defensive Driving; (12) Electrical Resistance

These are not thoroughly thought out, but I think something like this could work.

 

[EngryEngineer]

So we know the stats (Strength, Constitution, Reflexes, Intelligence, Tech, Cool). We also know that skills (i.e. hacking, crafting, long arms & short arms) are progressed by successfully performing actions, and that perks are progressed based on XP and Street Cred. We also know that character progression is organized via a fluid class system where they player can focus on solo, techie and/or netrunner archetypes.

What follows is rampant speculation based upon what we do know.

Spoiler: RAMPANT SPECULATION

Sounds to me like skills are more will relate to more gradual and passive improves, and that perks will be something we can invest points in ... and we will get more points as we increase our XP and/or street cred. Knowing all this ... here is my stab at what it might look like.

Skills would slowly rank up over time, when when you reach certain ranks, various bonuses are granted. I.E. reach rank 10 of Tracking and it increases distance where you are aware of target by 10%, allows for two targets to be identified at once.

Solo Skills:
(1) Long Arms - over time reduces weapon sway, recoil, reload times for shotguns, rifles and etc;
(2) Short Arms - over time reduces weapon sway, recoil, reload times for one handed projectile weapons (like handguns); (3) Endurance - increases stamina for brawling, melee, running distance, fast swimming, etc;
(4) Brawling - increases speed and damage of unarmed attacks, could unlock new moves at certain points (i.e. grapple, block, roundhouse kick or whatever;
(5) Melee - increases speed and damage of melee weapons (swords, mantis blades, big sticks), could unlock new moves at certain points;
(6) Dodge - makes it less likely you will be seriously hit while attempting to dodge;
(7) Tracking - lets player focus on specific targets so long as they are nearby without line of sight;
(8) Perception - makes clues appear more conspicuously while, also gives characters indicators if someone is lying;
(9) Stealth - makes the player harder to notice while sneaking or hiding;
(10) Toughness - makes the player more resistant to status effects (like hot, cold, etc) also reduces effects of being injured.

Perks would be more active abilities that you invest points in. The key is to make each perk be meaningful without being OP.

Solo Perks
(1) Focused Aim - allows player to take a breath to significantly reduce sway and target area;
(2) Quick Draw - allows player to draw small arms much more quickly;
(3) Ambush - ranged or area attacks deal additional damage when done successfully from sneaking/hiding.
(4) Ricochet Shot - allows player to aim deflections of shots off of some environmental structures;
(5) Evade - when in stealth and unseen by NPCs, reduces time it takes for NPCs to return to normal routine;
(6) Ambidextrous - less negative effects for duel wielding small melee or ranged weapons;
(7) Silent Strike - melee attacks while unseen deal significantly more damage;
(8) Counter - Increases chance to block/parry and slows down time after a successful block/parry for counter attack;
(9) Controlled Hyperventilation - makes stamina deplete more slowly, also increases time you can breath underwater;
(10) Expert Climber - makes player climb more quickly and exert less effort while climbing/hanging;
(11) Combat Sense - slows time for a brief period whenever a combat encounter begins;
(12) Intimidate - gives a chance to frighten enemies through certain actions or words;

Something like that would be the general idea. There would likely be multiple places for investment of points in each perk, granting additional bonuses/abilities. To interlock them with skills, it might make sense to gate of some perk ranks until there is enough progress in an associated skill (i.e. no ambush (iii) until you reach stealth rank 10). Something like that. I'm not gonna do a whole write up for all my skill perk ideas, but I will just mention other actions/skills I think may translate well to a cRPG.

Techie Skills: (1) Chemistry; (2) MedTech; (3) Demolitions; (4) Engineering; (5) Persuasion; (6) Cyberware Design; (7) Lockpicking; (8) Gunsmith; (9) Armorer; (10) Business Sense

Techie Perks: (1) Streetdeal; (2) Scavenger; (3) Scrapper; (4) Jury Rig; (5) Credibility; (6) Robotics; (7) Booby Trap; (8) Tolerance; (9) Connections; (10) Wardrobe and Style; (11) Field Surgery; (12) Concealed Merchandise

Netrunner Skills: (1) Interface; (2) Database Search; (3) System Knowledge; (4) Digital Lockpicking; (5) Braindance Use; (6) Surveillance; (7) Hacking Defenses; (8) Pick Pocket; (9) Deck Design; (10) Driving

Netrunner Perks: (1) Improved Hacking; (2) Manipulate Alarm; (3) Manipulate Machinery; (4) Manipulate Weapons; (5) Manipulate Comms; (6) Net Burglar; (7) Remote Interface; (8) Systems Editing; (9) Systems Forgery; (10) Deception; (11) Defensive Driving; (12) Electrical Resistance

These are not thoroughly thought out, but I think something like this could work.

In my opinion your speculative system is pretty much my ideal, a lot of things to specialize, a meaningful difference between skills and perks, and I especially appreciate that new options open for each of the roles where I find many games give new play options to the soldier while just unlocking the ability to use the same hacking skills on new things so hackers never really change they can just get to new places in each network.

 

[Snowflakez]

So we know the stats (Strength, Constitution, Reflexes, Intelligence, Tech, Cool). We also know that skills (i.e. hacking, crafting, long arms & short arms) are progressed by successfully performing actions, and that perks are progressed based on XP and Street Cred. We also know that character progression is organized via a fluid class system where they player can focus on solo, techie and/or netrunner archetypes.

What follows is rampant speculation based upon what we do know.

Spoiler: RAMPANT SPECULATION

Sounds to me like skills will relate to more gradual and passive improvements, and that perks will be something we can invest points in to get more active improvements ... and we will get more points for perks as we increase our XP and/or street cred. Knowing all this ... here is my stab at what it might look like.

Skills would slowly rank up over time, when when you reach certain ranks, various bonuses are granted. I.E. reach rank 10 of Tracking and it increases distance where you are aware of target by 10%, allows for two targets to be identified at once.

Solo Skills:
(1) Long Arms - over time reduces weapon sway, recoil, reload times for shotguns, rifles and etc;
(2) Short Arms - over time reduces weapon sway, recoil, reload times for one handed projectile weapons (like handguns); (3) Endurance - increases stamina for brawling, melee, running distance, fast swimming, etc;
(4) Brawling - increases speed and damage of unarmed attacks, could unlock new moves at certain points (i.e. grapple, block, roundhouse kick or whatever;
(5) Melee - increases speed and damage of melee weapons (swords, mantis blades, big sticks), could unlock new moves at certain points;
(6) Dodge - makes it less likely you will be seriously hit while attempting to dodge;
(7) Tracking - lets player focus on specific targets so long as they are nearby without line of sight;
(8) Perception - makes clues appear more conspicuously while, also gives characters indicators if someone is lying;
(9) Stealth - makes the player harder to notice while sneaking or hiding;
(10) Toughness - makes the player more resistant to status effects (like hot, cold, etc) also reduces effects of being injured.

Perks would be more active abilities that you invest points in. The key is to make each perk be meaningful without being OP.

Solo Perks
(1) Focused Aim - allows player to take a breath to significantly reduce sway and target area;
(2) Quick Draw - allows player to draw small arms much more quickly;
(3) Ambush - ranged or area attacks deal additional damage when done successfully from sneaking/hiding.
(4) Ricochet Shot - allows player to aim deflections of shots off of some environmental structures;
(5) Evade - when in stealth and unseen by NPCs, reduces time it takes for NPCs to return to normal routine;
(6) Ambidextrous - less negative effects for duel wielding small melee or ranged weapons;
(7) Silent Strike - melee attacks while unseen deal significantly more damage;
(8) Counter - Increases chance to block/parry and slows down time after a successful block/parry for counter attack;
(9) Controlled Hyperventilation - makes stamina deplete more slowly, also increases time you can breath underwater;
(10) Expert Climber - makes player climb more quickly and exert less effort while climbing/hanging;
(11) Combat Sense - slows time for a brief period whenever a combat encounter begins;
(12) Intimidate - gives a chance to frighten enemies through certain actions or words;

Something like that would be the general idea. There would likely be multiple places for investment of points in each perk, granting additional bonuses/abilities. To interlock them with skills, it might make sense to gate of some perk ranks until there is enough progress in an associated skill (i.e. no ambush (iii) until you reach stealth rank 10). Something like that. I'm not gonna do a whole write up for all my skill perk ideas, but I will just mention other actions/skills I think may translate well to a cRPG.

Techie Skills: (1) Chemistry; (2) MedTech; (3) Demolitions; (4) Engineering; (5) Persuasion; (6) Cyberware Design; (7) Lockpicking; (8) Gunsmith; (9) Armorer; (10) Business Sense

Techie Perks: (1) Streetdeal; (2) Scavenger; (3) Scrapper; (4) Jury Rig; (5) Credibility; (6) Robotics; (7) Booby Trap; (8) Tolerance; (9) Connections; (10) Wardrobe and Style; (11) Field Surgery; (12) Concealed Merchandise

Netrunner Skills: (1) Interface; (2) Database Search; (3) System Knowledge; (4) Digital Lockpicking; (5) Braindance Use; (6) Surveillance; (7) Hacking Defenses; (8) Pick Pocket; (9) Deck Design; (10) Driving

Netrunner Perks: (1) Improved Hacking; (2) Manipulate Alarm; (3) Manipulate Machinery; (4) Manipulate Weapons; (5) Manipulate Comms; (6) Net Burglar; (7) Remote Interface; (8) Systems Editing; (9) Systems Forgery; (10) Deception; (11) Defensive Driving; (12) Electrical Resistance

These are not thoroughly thought out, but I think something like this could work.

I agree with the overall concept, but I don't think the skills will be tied to individual classes, even in a "soft" way. Unless you more meant that some classes are just better at some skills than others, in which case you could be right (because they'd simply be doing more of those things than others).

Also, christ almighty, we need to have some conversations about what we want at some point, because these are some damn cool ideas.

 

[Rawls]

I agree with the overall concept, but I don't think the skills will be tied to individual classes, even in a "soft" way. Unless you more meant that some classes are just better at some skills than others, in which case you could be right (because they'd simply be doing more of those things than others).

I still think the skills will be organized by class archetype ... but I don't think there will be any limitations about picking skills from one class or the other. It's been hinted at in a few different interviews. I think IF we have to pick a class at the beginning, all it will do is give us a different starting point, and from there we can pick skills from whatever place we want. But even though we can pick skills from wherever ... I think it makes sense to organize skills under the classes where the solo fights and sneaks, the techie crafts and talks, and the netrunner hacks and distracts. You can become whatever hybrid you want, but it makes sense to organize everything by archetype. Just so it's more intuitive.

 

[Snowflakez]

I still think the skills will be organized by class archetype ... but I don't think there will be any limitations about picking skills from one class or the othetr. It's been hinted at in a few different interviews. I think IF we have to pick a class at the beginning, all it will do is give us a different starting point, and from there we can pick skills from whatever place we want. But even though we can pick skills from wherever ... I think it makes sense to organize skills under the classes where the solo fights and sneaks, the techie crafts and talks, and the netrunner hacks and distracts. You can become whatever hybrid you want, but it makes sense to organize everything by archetype. Just so it's more intuitive.

Ah, okay. Yeah, fair enough, I get what you mean now. I agree, that seems likely.