RPG Mechanics: Skill Progression and Roles

+
Lisbeth_Salander;n8992430 said:
Game 100% dependent on stats = Dice game with no chalenges besides leveling up.

That's not really true. There are no control based challenges like in Dark Souls or Witcher or GTA, but there are challenges beyond leveling up.

Lisbeth_Salander;n8992430 said:
Dark Souls is an action RPG with a good balance between both

Beyond that I don't care about it at all... Dark Souls is also an HP grinder and a magical fantasy game. To apply it's philosophy here in this context would mean a game like, say, Fallout 3 or 4 where the combat skill means that your gun magically does more damage as you invest in it and people take less shots to the head to bring them down -- that really, really does not suit Cyberpunk and I doubt anyone at CDPR would ever even consider it.

Case in point:


On the other hand, if you apply the stat effects to accuracy and other control distortions, you then take a chunk of the control away from the player and it's no longer about "your own skill"; and that's what CDPR is saying they want to avoid (or... said 4 years ago). Counting out these two methods, what we have left is something where the stats are probably there but they do so little to the gameplay they might as well not exist at all. And going down that road - if it turns out it is the road they're taking for CP2077 - you can start questioning where and why did they need the Cyperpunk franchise in the first place when all they're taking from it is the background lore and probably a list of familiar names (remember that even the aesthetic is new with the 57-year time jump and the intention to not use the "80's scifi" theme).

We'll see how it goes in a year or two, but I see every reason for being cynical at this point still with what has been said about the gameplay.

Lisbeth_Salander;n8992430 said:
@kofeiiniturpa DUDE DARK SOULS LMAO COWABUNGA! XDDDD

Cowabunga.

 
Last edited:
kofeiiniturpa;n8992890 said:
Beyond that I don't care about it at all... Dark Souls is also an HP grinder and a magical fantasy game. To apply it's philosophy here in this context would mean a game

So because a game has magick elements Cyberpunk 2077 can't be inspired by it? There are mentions CP 2077 will take inpiration in Bauldur's Gate. On the technical level Dark Souls is an action rpg with a great chalenging A.I, at no point did I mentioned it is a perfect game, on the contrary, the Souls series has many flaws.

I like games with chalenging combat systems, there I said it!

kofeiiniturpa;n8992890 said:
Counting out these two methods, what we have left is something where the stats are probably there but they do so little to the gameplay they might as well not exist at all.

The sad truth. It might turn out to be shit right? and we know deep in our hearts it is possible.


kofeiiniturpa;n8992890 said:
Cowabunga.

I'm pretty sure that gif violates some of the forum rules. Can someone ban this guy please? I mean he's out of control! Take him down mods.
 
Last edited:
Lisbeth_Salander;n8993760 said:
So because a game has magick elements Cyberpunk 2077 can't be inspired by it?

No. But knowing how the game works, what does it offer to be inspired about in regards to what we are talking about here?

Baldur's Gate was mentioned (iirc) for it's lack of overt number crunching, and it also sports an RPG system transported straight (at least nearly) from a PnP game and gameplay design that emulates that system.

Lisbeth_Salander;n8993760 said:
I'm pretty sure that gif violates some of the forum rules. Can someone ban this guy please? I mean he's out of control! Take him down mods.

I'm ready. But before anyone comes too close, consider this:

 
kofeiiniturpa;n8993870 said:
No. But knowing how the game works, what does it offer to be inspired about in regards to what we are talking about here?

Playing a game like Assassin's Creed for the challenge is like traveling to syria to enjoy your summer vacation. I bet you're not a fan of enemies's A.I that adapt to your every move and forces you, the player, to understand the enemy in order to adapt to the game's challenges? I come to the conclusion that our differences are probably due to our ideals, and not objective ones. Since a game can not necessarily be challenging with its A.I, it may give to the players the possibility to chose the difficulty of the game, so why not give some of the players the option to not only harden the difficulty of the game by making "bullet sponge" enemies that takes hours to be defeated, but by also optmizing the enemies' Artificial Inteligence?

Hey, nothing agains't casuals. Let casuals be casuals and let hardcore gamers enjoy being what they are.
 
Last edited:
Lisbeth_Salander;n8993970 said:
I come to the conclusion that our differences are probably due to our ideals

That might be, but there's also that we not really speaking about the same things here all the time. For instance, I've had no opinion on difficulty or AI in this discussion (other than saying that statbased games do offer challenges beyond leveling up a couple of posts ago). I've only talked about gameplay mechanics and the use of stats therein.

I mean, I like a good challenge (though the game should not be a constant struggle and punishment) and adaptive AI would be a good thing. But that's little to do with how stats affect gameplay and combat.
 
Last edited:
kofeiiniturpa;n8991270 said:
"We certainly want to avoid the situation where your combat capabilities are that much dependent on the stats. It's about your own skill."

Thanks for the link. I do think I have seen this video befor, it seems familiar to me... must have been around when it first came out, and then compleatly forgetting about it.

Hopefully your shooting skills are still effected by your characters skill in firearms... if it is something like Fallout New Vegas, or Mass Effect, in the sence that you can still somewhat use firearms even with a very low skill in them (you just have to work around the fact that you are less accurate at certain longer distances depending on what weapon it is), then I would be pretty happy with that... because atleast then your skill level in a weapon would still effect things like your accuracy and such.

If it goes the way of an FPS styled, pin point accuracy at all times, type of a game... then that would be a real shame. I would still play it, because I do like some FPS games (mostly Crysis and FarCry, and the new Deus Ex games does essentually have FPS styled combat)... but it would just feel like such a wasted oppertunity to not use atleast some aspects of the combat and combat skills from Cyberpunk 2020.

Who knows... a lot can have changed in 4 years time since that video came out I guess.
 
Last edited:
I feel like we ignore the fact that English isn't these guys first language. Sometimes they don't word things properly and might get the wrong message across.

I think they want to avoid scenarios where your character is two feet away from someone and the game tells them they missed their shot even though you can clearly see a bullet hitting the character model.
 
Second stab at it. It's related to another post here - http://forums.cdprojektred.com/forum...50#post8537050

So stats are the base levels of ability you have to do various things. There are six stats that I think ought to be included from CP 2020. So my thought is you can invest a certain number of points in each stat (say 1-10 for each). You start with enough stat points to average 6-7 points per stat. Your skills then increase this stat by a certain percentage, as well as allow you to do new things. Once your stats are set at the beginning, they cannot be change, you must augment them by developing skills. So for example, a high BT score will result in more HP, more carrying capacity and more damage dealt from melee attacks. Higher REF score would result in more damage from ranged attacks and ability to evade others on foot or in vehicles. CL would allow you to boast your reputation more quickly with various factions, resist the influence of drugs, toxins or other's influence in dialogue. INT effects the information you have available to you about certain histories and processes, as well as some availability regarding dialogue, and information you learn from searching. EMP effects your ability to influence others in dialogue and your ability to make money. Finally your tech score will effect the value of money you can get from selling items you craft, as well as how well you craft hold up if they are exposed to physical or virtual damage.


EDIT: Borked table

I'll probably add descriptions in the skills at some point this weekend . Keep in mind that each skill would have multiple possible ranks (probably 4-5). I reduced the number of skill groups to 9 (to match the number of roles and now have each role specializing in one skill group. To repeat and slightly amend my op

The player has tier 1 of every skill available from the start, and may progress to higher tiered skills after investing points in the tree. In order to reach tier 2 of a skill group, you must (1) have 10 skill points invested in the skill tree and (2) have the lower tiered skill within that skill group.

and

Roles give you three advantages in the skill tree.
  • (1) Each role gets a special skill, no other class can get – i.e. a Fixer get “streetdeal” just like in the PnP. I have changed [some] special skills. This is because the original skills from the PnP for these roles would be difficult to translate to a crpg.
  • (2) Each role has one skill group they specialize in. For instance, a Media role player specializes in Influence. Specializing in a skill group means that all skills in that group are available to the player without regard to skills invested in the skill tree. So from the beginning of the game, deception is an available skill to Media role-player, despite it normally requiring 40 points invested in the Charisma skill tree.
  • (3) In addition, specializing in a skill group means that each skill in that group only requires ½ of a skill point.
 
Last edited:
Rawls;n8997950 said:
Second stab at it.

I appreciate the effort and had this been an original IP, I would've done a couple of those myself; I've done it in the past elsewhere and it's fun to figure these things out. But I'm still at a bit of a loss on what exactly is wrong with the original 2020 system that it would need to be changed into a Witcher 3/Fallout 4/Far Cry -esque perk chart like that?
 
kofeiiniturpa;n9001280 said:
I appreciate the effort and had this been an original IP, I would've done a couple of those myself; I've done it in the past elsewhere and it's fun to figure these things out. But I'm still at a bit of a loss on what exactly is wrong with the original 2020 system that it would need to be changed into a Witcher 3/Fallout 4/Far Cry -esque perk chart like that?
There are a few reasons why I've settled on it here:

1. It is one of the simplest solutions to creating a UI friendly player progression system IMO. I like intuitive and simple ... plus I'm not smart or creative enough to figure out anything that's both elegant and outside the box.
2. It's the best I could come up with to allow both a flexible role/stat/skill system that also makes each of the roles feel distinct. As I said I hope each skill has multiple ranks, some of which include a choice like the ME games.
3. Some of the stats in CP2020 do not translate well to a crpg. Attractiveness doesn't make sense when one can choose how their characters dress, etc etc. All it would do is be a boring % increase. Would it actually change the way the PC looks? I doubt it. Same with luck. Luck as a stat doesn't translate will to the confines of a crog system. It's been boring as all get out when adapted to games like FO4, Movement allowance seems like it would be really hard to code on a computer for every PC and NPC ... so I didn't include that.
4. Many of the skill in CP 2020 are likely to be more effected by player skill IMO in a video game setting thus reducing the number of skill that have to be accounted for by the skill system. I know you would like it to mostly be based on stats, but I'm fairly confident based on their previous statements and past games that it will be a blend of stats and player skills (as we've discussed before at length).
5. For ease of use on the forums, creating charts is way simpler than drawing any sort of diagram progression system and loading them into the forum through images.
EDIT: 6. It does the above things while trying to stay as true as possible to the source material (which I love).
 
Last edited:
The big problem is if they cut 70% of the content regarding skills in CP2077.

We all know that dumbing down a game = attracting more players = higher profit.
 
Lisbeth_Salander;n9004320 said:
The big problem is if they cut 70% of the content regarding skills in CP2077.
What skills would you include that I'm missing? My suggestions aren't set in stone.
 
No dumbing down please... i hate those perk skill tree system... Then pen and paper rpg already have a robust solid skill and stat system that could be easily translated in to a videogames..

Please refrain to do another of the one overused skill tress with perk it will just killing the cyberpunk spirit.
 
Last edited:
Rawls - I think you're just wasting your time with those huge table posts, to be honest. It's re-inventing the wheel, when they already have said wheel, if they even want to use wheels. In other words, CyberPunk 2020, which CyberPunk 2077 is to be explicitly based on, already has a complete system for character creation and resolving character actions. If they choose to have a detailed set of skills, they already have what they need (with necessary adaptions, obviously), and if not, then that topic is moot. In either case, I can see no place for your suggestions.

Personally, I hope they leave progression as skill only, with no levelling, limited skill improvement (preferrably through teachers, whether human or some machine learning, skill chips, etc) and no way to alter attributes except through cyberware. Like others, I also hope that the comment about stats not affecting combat is a language barrier issue, because it's not actually an RPG if your stats don't determine the abilities of your character. Half-Life was a great game, but it was an interactive novel, not an RPG - we do not alter the events of the world, or make any actual decisions, and the protagonist is Gordon Freeman, who looks and sounds a certain way, no matter who the player is. There was no character generation, or any kind of customization, nor even stats to speak of.

Mass Effect, on the other hand, moves into the realm of RPGs, but decidedly straddles the line (and I was fine with that, because I enjoyed the story and the character background choices actually affected that story, too), since I was able to customize the protagonist somewhat, including their "stats" but was also limited in that customization - the protagonist is always <insert name> Shepard, they always were going to find themself in command of the Normandy, always going to become the first human Spectre, etc, etc.

I'd be happy with CyberPunk 2077 managing something like Mass Effect, but I'd be much happier if they give me more of the freedom of an actual RPG, where I can, potentially, (possibly not without consequences) ignore whatever the "main plot" is and decide I want to tool around in Night City for the next decade. Likewise, in Mass Effect, you were always going to have some degree of combat ability, with the actual variation being what weapons and powers you had at your disposal, and you were always going to have to fight, a lot. In a true RPG, choosing to run away or better yet, not even get into combat, is pretty much always an option. It'd be great if I could play CyberPunk 2077 without ever firing a shot, potentially.
 
Last edited:
Gaidheal;n9012630 said:
Rawls - I think you're just wasting your time with those huge table posts, to be honest.
Probably ... but I get a kick out of trying to sort out how the PnP mechanics can be adapted to video game in a way that's UI and gameplay friendly. I'm aware this is likely to be moot, but I like discussing it anyways. :)

Gaidheal;n9012630 said:
Personally, I hope they leave progression as skill only, with no levelling, limited skill improvement (preferrably through teachers, whether human or some machine learning, skill chips, etc) and no way to alter attributes except through cyberware.
I would really like this. I hate leveling generally. You will notice that the only thing leveling does is allocate skill points so as to give the player skill progression over time and which skills are available at the start varies based on role.

Gaidheal;n9012630 said:
Like others, I also hope that the comment about stats not affecting combat is a language barrier issue, because it's not actually an RPG if your stats don't determine the abilities of your character.
Huh? I explicitly put in the updated idea that BT affects melee damage & HP ... REF effects stealth & ranged combat ... cool effects various types of "willpower" checks and etc. In the OP I had it more skill dependent, but based on the feedback I made stats more important. As I said above, I think it will be a blend of skills and stats.

Gaidheal;n9012630 said:
Half-Life was a great game, but it was an interactive novel, not an RPG - we do not alter the events of the world, or make any actual decisions, and the protagonist is Gordon Freeman, who looks and sounds a certain way, no matter who the player is. There was no character generation, or any kind of customization, nor even stats to speak of.
Well there is a link to my ideas for character customization in my post above ... but I'll link it again here - http://forums.cdprojektred.com/forum...50#post8537050. There absolutely should be a life-path mechanic IMO. Choices and consequences are also a must. They're the heart of RPGs. But that's not what this thread is about. This is just about how we want the stats, skills and roles to blend together.

Gaidheal;n9012630 said:
I'd be happy with CyberPunk 2077 managing something like Mass Effect, but I'd be much happier if they give me more of the freedom of an actual RPG, where I can, potentially, (possibly not without consequences) ignore whatever the "main plot" is and decide I want to tool around in Night City for the next decade.
I think they said back in like 2012 that it will be something non-linear and open world. Granted things can change ... but I've never heard them say anything other than open world with high quality non-linear story.
 
Rawls;n9001980 said:
It is one of the simplest solutions to creating a UI friendly player progression system IMO.

....

Besides that how what did there looks just like reworded Witcher 3 perk tree, and which I happen to really dislike... "simple" isn't necessarily the best course of action here, and you are complicating the work by changing the system so it's not really "simple" anyway since you have to redo everything.

The simplest course of action is to take the stats from the original system, set up their purpose in the game and effect on the character and assign a certain number of skills under each. Not every stat needs to be equal and not every skill needs to be super powerful or essential (certain skills can well work as more like curiosities, you will value them when you notice what you missed with them), and you certainly do not need all the 100 or so skills from PnP game, but little bit of reassignment can well be done to prevent "obvious dumpstats".

As for stuff "not easily fit in a computer game"...
Attractiveness does not need to change the characters outlook, there are skills for that (wardrobe&style, personal grooming), it can well work as representing the characters inherent pose towards others (because attraction is subjective anyway -- turning the PC into a Ken doll with a stat would be stupid) and as such affect the NCP's initial disposition towards the PC. Some NPC's might even have better respect towards a non-attractive PC (they might be jealous or the might consider a high pose PC pretentious and lose respect).

Movement allowance might be considered as fatigue or stamina in a real time situation, a meter you have to keep an eye on as when it depletes, your characters performance decreases significantly. And if there's that tactical mode that was hinted years ago... MA can be MA there.

This is not so much a suggestion but an example of what I mean with the afore mentioned "simplest course of action" and "reassingment":

Each stat and skill goes from 0 to 10 as in the PnP. Here's two attribute/skillsets to illustrate the point:

ATTR 0/10
Personal grooming 0/10
Wardrobe&Style 0/10
Seduction 0/10
Persuasion 0/10

- All of this is bascically about social acceptance at any given class of people, the attrivute and skills help you sweet talk and influence NPC's and open you doors to the high tier clubs and offices you might not otherwise have access to. Wardrobe&Style might also help you choose the best outfit for a specific mission where you need to go in packing heat. This might seem irrelevant, but if you build an ugly brute, you might miss out on content heavily (and there's nothing wrong with that, you made a character you wanted).

BODY 0/10
Strength feat. 0/10
Endurance 0/10
Swimming 0/10
Intimidation 0/10
Heavy weapons 0/10
Melee 0/10

- All of this is about controlling your body and fitness and using it to help you with tasks that require a stern back. And being a big brute might also help you give an intimidating pose.


That's already ten skills that can well be used in the game; and there's still 5 attributes to go and the rolespecific skills too. If the average skillcount for each attribute is 5 (ATTR up there has only 4, Empathy and COOL/WILL might also have 3 or 4, INT and REF will have more) plus 9 special skills, there's 44-50 skills altogether, plenty to choose from and the career packages can be downsized a bit to mitigate too much overlapping.

The same action with the rest of them. Picking what seems sensible and interesting, mix and match a bit where needed, and if need be invent a couple of new skills (there's also plenty to merge). Passive skills are just as important, if not more, than active skills. And I repeat, not all skills need to be super important; they need to be useful in their field and provide meaningful interactions throughout the game to warrant their existence and their range, but Assaultrifles will always be more useful than Library Search, and that's OK.


Like I said previously... If everything is reconstructed to be something else, if all that's taken from the 2020 legacy is background lore, what good did it do to licence it in the first place other than not having to write a bit of gameworld histroy?
 
Last edited:
Yay! Someone proposed something different to think about! I get what your saying and I agree with most of your points, but I'm still unsure of how well it transitions to a crpg UI and how much opportunity cost is lost in programming skill systems for things like swimming. But let me ponder it a bit a come back with something incorporating a more faithful translation of the 2020 systems.
 
Rawls;n9029570 said:
I'm still unsure of how well it transitions to a crpg UI and how much opportunity cost is lost in programming skill systems for things like swimming

Why would it be "lost". You'd have a little bit of extra character developement opportunities and things to try out. I'd say more opportunity is lost in some absolutely top tier graphics and animation that eat resources from the gameplay department or fully voiceacted gameworld.

It's more about the little things. Swimming might dictate whether or not you can swim, how fast you move in the water and how easily you maneuver there, and how long you can hold your breath. If you jump to deep water with zero skill, you drown. Game Over -> Reload. If you have 1 point, you can swim short distances. And so on. It doesn't matter if only a fraction of the players might use it, or if it might only rarely be asked to be used. What matters, is that when you do invest in it, you get gameplay, content and rewards accordingly - you invested in it and it paid off, happy gamer was created and no opportunity cost is lost. People should demand things like these - things that once were "things" before the age of streamlining - and not worry about the developers wallet, CDPR isn't nickle and diming this game anyway.

Mundane things, things you normally take for granted, often offer the best place to get creative in gameplay. Like swimming here. You wonder its programming costs with a tone that suggests that it's a waste, "oh it's just swimming" you might think, but there are people who can't swim and you could now roleplay that kind of person, you would need to take into account that lack when you engage with what ever content the game throws at you, and that's really exactly the reason why something like that should be there. Same goes for driving cars, driving motorcycles, gyros, even bicycles. That's what Strength feat. is there to do, to show that your character might be fit, but hie lacks certain knowledge and lifts weights with his back so he's more likely to fail. And so on.

These kinds of things should be thought of when designing a good character system. The fun in RPG is to find out what all bigger and smaller things you can do with your given - optimally comprehensive - rules and characterbuild, not just looking at a frugal list of locked abilities that the developer thought was "absolutely necessary" and then min-maxing it asap so you can get on with it.

It's not an easy task to put stuff like that in a computer game in a manner that makes it all worthwhile; if it was, it would've been done more often by more studios. But it doesn't need to be easy, either. Easy often goes for cheap and meaningless too in this industry as shown by many games.

Anyway, that's my point of view on this.
 
Last edited:
kofeiiniturpa;n9029840 said:
Anyway, that's my point of view on this.
What I mean by opportunity cost, is that programming an in depth swimming mechanic based on how many skill points or stats you have invested the relevant area will result in a lot of development time being spent on something that is of little utility from a gameplay perspective. Just make it so everyone can swim, have quick swim, regular swim, and stealth swim and call it a day. Creating an entire stat skill system for it seems like a less than ideal use of time and resources IMO. There is a finite amount of time and resources to develop the game ... prioritizing what to include is unfortunately a necessity in every video game. The benefit of being able to say "oh look I can't swim because I don't have that skill ... neat!" is IMO outweighed by the time and resources dedicated to creating the system. I'd personally rather see them dedicate the time to other things. However that's a preference, and I can respect that you disagree with it.
 
I don't think the games budget is going to sink or the release pushed back to somewhere like 2025 or the developers collapsing under the load if there are a few skills that are not as heavyhitter or as commonplace as what usually comes with the design of these games (combat abilities, lockpicking, etc). It's not quite that big a deal, I don't think.

If everything is stripped to bare essentials, then bare essentials is all we get. I don't think it's a good or very productive view to look at this as "only what is absolutely necessary for things to work, nothing more". The envelope should be pushed in certain respects, playing too safe makes everything feel like it's playing too safe.

Rawls;n9029960 said:
I'd personally rather see them dedicate the time to other things.

How much time would you think it'd take and what other things would you see made instead (with that spared time)?

However that's a preference, and I can respect that you disagree with it.

Of course. People can disagree even vehemently without losing respect of the otherones person or view. That the point is understood and that it possibly made someone thinking outside the box, if even for a moment, is what these discussions are for in my opinion. And that's really all I ask for them.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom