Saesenthessis still needs work.

[TriforceDragon]

Saesenthessis still needs work.

Hello

Let me start out by saying that I am happy that CDProjectRed is buffing this dragon with the next patch, but even an increase from 6 to 7 is a very far cry from making this card viable in my humble opinion.

The simple reason is that Saesenthessis just takes way too much work to make even decent. Even with the new buff the card requires 5 elves on board to match the swing of Triss Merigold, a neutral gold and matching a brave enhanced Geralt requires 6 dwarves. That is half an opening hand and is assuming that the opponent does not pass before so many cards hit the field and that is just to tie these neutral golds who are both far more useful to get in a low card situation than Saesenthessis.

Plenty of Gold cards also go up to 16 or even more power swings on average (Imlerith, Philipa can both pull 16 power in optimal scenarios), requiring 9 elves or Dwarves just to tie these cards, an almost impossible scenario to achieve. It is most easily done with elves due to some muster scenanigans along with mulligan plays, but the problem with the elf angle is that it makes Saesenthessis deal damage instead of becoming more powerful, so you also need a target that is not overkilled in order to gain maximum value.

And that is really the problem in a nutshell, it feels like, to me, that Saesenthessis takes far too much setup for an underwhelming gain. The old version who damaged the enemy side and buffed its own side by 1 may have been powerful, but it most certainly rewarded having those long turns with lots of creatures on both side. This one rarely seems to outstrip the power shift I could get from another gold, even a neutral one and I doubt increasing its power by 1 is gonna change that.

So what should happen? I dont really know honestly, while I like the design idea behind it, I think it is a very limiting one that will either result in a card that causes a overwhelming swing when setup right or a dud when you get it on the final turns with next to no cards in hand to help empower it. Right now, it leans more to the dud side for me.

What is your opinion on Saesenthessis and do you have any ideas for how to handle buffing it if necesary?

 

[zhiphius]

My oppinion on ST golds is still that they are generally average or below average. Not matching golds from say NG or monsters.

Saessenthesis: Undervalued, as you said she requires too much work. A base of 6 str (7 in the patch) is way too weak. she needs 6 dwarf\elf units to match a braved geralt after the patch >.< without units (say you draw her in round 3 with 2 cards left) she's extremely weak as a gold card.

Saskia: she's fine for what she does. Because of the Brouver Hoog opening, increasing her str is not an option.

Schirru: Also a fine card. 10 strength + good effect is enough.

Ithlinne: Only really works with maerdrome, thunderbolt potion and rally and then only in specific decks and circumstances. I wish she was more flexible but she isn't. With the upcomming nerf she really isn't worth using outside of the aforementioned circumstances (dwarfs - thunderbolt and special ST) which means one less viable Gold for movement, ambush and mulligan type of decks.

Iorveth: Clunky and the only card it synergieses with is malena (who is crap) and Zoltan (which you want to use to move your own units). Needs movement archtype units (bronze cards) that manipulate enemy position. With the upcomming patch he'll be more viable but still a net loss compared to moving your own units unless you run weather. Would like to see the pinging dmg he does increased to 3 and his base str upped a bit.

Isengrim: Could use a str buff. But otherwise he's pretty much fine for what he does. The problem is that ST lacks viable ambush cards outside of morenn and toruviel both being "ok" cards but nothing more.

Milva: Iffy card, i'd like to see her triggering the beneficial effect before the negative. She could also be buffed to 10 str. Outside of very specific strategies she's not really worth using. I'd label her as a extremely circumstancial good card, but generally a useless card.

Zoltan Chivay: The best Gold we got. Can manipulate enemies into weather, synergizes very well with movement archtype and is generally good value in any non special deck types. Would love to see him gain 1 or 2 more str though.

Aglais: Iffy card, some people like her though. Useless if the opponent don't run any special cards and you dont always want clear skies from them. To boot she looses 4 strength automatically so she's in effect either a 6str card + silver\bronze special OR a below average 10 str gold card. Could use rework.

To sum it up, we have a few decent gold. Schirru and zoltan being the two that is fine. Ithlinne will fit in decks where thunderbolt potion is important (and double lock\maerdrome) even after the nerf. The rest could use some tuning or a rework.

 

[JadenYugari]

Saesenthessis right now is basicaly a slightly stronger bronze card, masking as a gold..... I really tried to make her work, but her effect is just utter garbage. No matter how much buffs to strenght she gets, as long as she will have that mega-crap effect, she is unplayable.

 

[Zefyris]

Saesenthessis is just like ermion, she's a starter gold that you basically replace by any other neutral of faction specific legendary you got right away because everything else is better.
She's literally inferior in everything to her starter monster counterpart, which himself isn't especially outstanding.
The idea is great, but the numbers aren't.
Top decking playing first, nothing to hit, nothing on the board :
Saesenthessis pre patch : 6
Saesenthessis post patch/ Triss : 7
Imlerith : 8
Geralt : 10

Top decking playing second, something to hit
Saesenthessis pre patch : 6
Saesenthessis post patch : 7
Geralt : 10/13
Imelrith/ Triss : up to 12

Condition to fulfil to get more than a 12 points swing :
Imlerith : just having played a frost on a unit first (16 points.
Saesenthessis : Having at least 7 (6 post patch) elves+dwarves on the board when played. 13 points, +1 points per supplementary unit, so need 10 (9 post patch) to reach 16 points).

One is clearly easier. Yes you'll need that unit you hit to be 9str+ in frost for getting the full value out of imlerith, but that's still going to happen far more often than playing saesenthessis with 9 elves+dwarves units already on the board (and nothing got killed).

just getting 12 points is already not guaranteed. due to all the removal flying around when the round is long. Long setup for underwhelming result and a gold slot? yeaaah sure.

She clearly should get 2 points per unit, and have a cap for each bonus if necessary.

 

[TriforceDragon]

Saesenthessis is just like ermion, she's a starter gold that you basically replace by any other neutral of faction specific legendary you got right away because everything else is better.
She's literally inferior in everything to her starter monster counterpart, which himself isn't especially outstanding.
The idea is great, but the numbers aren't.
Top decking playing first, nothing to hit, nothing on the board :
Saesenthessis pre patch : 6
Saesenthessis post patch/ Triss : 7
Imlerith : 8
Geralt : 10

Top decking playing second, something to hit
Saesenthessis pre patch : 6
Saesenthessis post patch : 7
Geralt : 10/13
Imelrith/ Triss : up to 12

Condition to fulfil to get more than a 12 points swing :
Imlerith : just having played a frost on a unit first (16 points.
Saesenthessis : Having at least 7 (6 post patch) elves+dwarves on the board when played. 13 points, +1 points per supplementary unit, so need 10 (9 post patch) to reach 16 points).

One is clearly easier. Yes you'll need that unit you hit to be 9str+ in frost for getting the full value out of imlerith, but that's still going to happen far more often than playing saesenthessis with 9 elves+dwarves units already on the board (and nothing got killed).

just getting 12 points is already not guaranteed. due to all the removal flying around when the round is long. Long setup for underwhelming result and a gold slot? yeaaah sure.

She clearly should get 2 points per unit, and have a cap for each bonus if necessary.

Agreed.

Dont know if it should be 2 points in both areas per unit though as high direct damage numbers seem to be valued very highly in this game in terms of stat cost. Do agree that 2 points per Dwarf would be better and then lower her base power if she starts to become troublesome.

As for the damage might need to be randomly targeted if it starts to become really high, but if so it should be spread into smaller increments, would be really crap to land 10 damage on a 1 power enemy. Maybe, 2 damage per elf but hitting each enemy unit randomly in turn, stopping when all enemies on opponents board has been hit once. Brings back some of her earlier AoE, but puts a cap on what you can do with direct damage as her and once again favors long turns.

Under the 2 power per idea, 5 units on board would make her a 16 point (17 with new buff) swing. Anything past that and she becomes really big, but you invest alot of units in it. To bring a comparision into this, Old Speartip's power swing is 22 in perfect conditions, 10 from awakened body, 10 from damaged enemies, 2 from buff when sleeping was played. (he can pass this by way of multiple, waking/sleeping transitions, but that requires enemy stupidity).

So she would be more powerful than average in a round where you can play lots of units (that stay), but weaker than average in one where you cant. Seems fair.

 

[Zefyris]

Well like I said you can put maximum values on each to avoid things to go haywire if necessary.
And I don't think she should have a lower base strength, that would make that card even worse compared to the others in round 3 with few to no cards on the board, as well as absolute crap against a removal deck.
no matter what, that card should not need 1 dwarf and 5 elves alive on the board to just achieve Triss' value, and next patch that's just removing the dwarf but still needing 5 elves.

 

[Pravicors]

Or maybe she gets a +2 bonus for every weakened ally (or non boosted ally maybe?) on the board.

I don't know, but anything would be better than it is now.

 

[sbxsat]

Give the dragon the ability to lacerate or deal 2 damage to 2 units to make her more like a utility card

 

[panerola]

I agree with the previous opinions, I have her in some of my decks but I consider changing her for the regular Geralt, she never reach a high value and there are not so many ways to spawn many number of dwarfs and elfs altogether. Before Isengrim just helped spawn elfs on the board but not anymore. I always end up with very low value for her. Comparing with Yarpen Zigrin (silver of the same strength), that is buffed for every dwarf played and is resilient, Saesenthessis feels like she is too weak.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

This card should start at either an 8 or a 9.

 

[TriforceDragon]

This card should start at either an 8 or a 9.

That would be a fix, but also kinda uninteresting would you not say? One can make any gold work by just pumping up the base stats until next to nothing from its ability is needed to push it past the neutral options.

Would be far more interesting to boost the ability in a way that makes it powerful when used right, but also not completely useless if drawn in a suboptimal scenario.

Now, 8 or 9 would probably not break the card, in fact it might not even be enough to make it truly viable, but it would also not make it any more interesting to use.

It is part of why I hate Tibor with a passion. He is 25 points and boring. There is almost no strategy or tactics to him. He is just a big dude who even in his worst case matches Geralt's worst case. You throw him in the deck because he fits any strategy and you play him without taking any special strategies into account outside of "play him last if possible."

I want Saesenthessis to be an interesting card to use, not just another ball of stats like Tibor.

Actually, this gave me an idea:

What if Saesenthessis stats and effect stayed the way they are (with exception of the coming buff) but added: Brave: Do the effect again.

Its gain is underwhelming for the setup at the moment, but if it could activate twice if you are behind (obviously only if you are still behind after first activation, just like Fire Elemental) it might be a powerful comeback card that can still gain decent stats if you have even a few Dwarves or Elves in the final round.

 

[Zefyris]

After thinking more about it, I think they should completely rework that card and make it do something else.
Currently, there's one of ST main archetype is dramatically lacking in synergy with any gold card*, and that's the Mulligan archetype.
Saesenthenssis could be reworked to react to mulligan in one way or another or trigger something related to mulligan rather than its current behaviour.

That's probably the best idea. Don't buff it, change it completely and help the mulligan archetype at the same time.

There's plenty of stuff that can be done.
Like,
"mulligan a bronze card, then spawn and play a base copy of it. "
"mulligan a bronze card, and play it instead of returning it to your deck"
"mulligan a card. If it's a spell, damage an enemy by x. if it's a unit, strengthen itself by y".

There's plenty of options available and that would still work as a starter card just fine.

*It's also drastically lacking in the silver department btw. That archetype is so unfinished right now. Changing a starter card like Saesenthessis for a Mulligan archetype would really help.

 

[NickStrife]

Well just trying to do Devil's Lawyer here... Maybe her strength is that she can increase her power AND do damage according to the set up you did on the board, thus making her more versatile?? More versatile=better as card... I mean, yeah power swings should be taken into account but we have to take the utility of the card into consideration, too..

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Well just trying to do Devil's Lawyer here... Maybe her strength is that she can increase her power AND do damage according to the set up you did on the board, thus making her more versatile?? More versatile=better as card... I mean, yeah power swings should be taken into account but we have to take the utility of the card into consideration, too..

I don't think people view a card as versatile if it's weak both ways. Not to mention it's not versatile in game at all. It's just a card that you can build for in two different ways. Either way it's too weak.

 

[TriforceDragon]

Well just trying to do Devil's Lawyer here... Maybe her strength is that she can increase her power AND do damage according to the set up you did on the board, thus making her more versatile?? More versatile=better as card... I mean, yeah power swings should be taken into account but we have to take the utility of the card into consideration, too..

The card is as versatile as the deck you create, but that deck still has to function. That usually means an emphasis on Elves or Dwarves.

Triss Merigold is one of the few cards who can deal 5 direct damage, making it able to eliminate quite a few cards out of reach of other cards. For Saesenthessis to deal 5 damage and match the power swing of Triss, you first need 5 elves on the board. In the turns it takes you to set that up, plenty of stuff that you would want to remove with 5 damage can deal plenty of damage to you or be buffed out of range.

If you seek raw power, you will need 6 dwarves to match Geralt under his brave effect. That is over half your starting hand (not counting shenanigans like Brouver).

Versatility is worth nothing if the card itself takes too much work to make even equal to neutral options that take no work to reach those numbers.

 

[NickStrife]

I don't think people view a card as versatile if it's weak both ways. Not to mention it's not versatile in game at all. It's just a card that you can build for in two different ways. Either way it's too weak.

Maybe its power lies to the fact you have the option to build it in two different ways??? That's all i am trying to say... although yes.. a +2 power buff would be good...

 

[TriforceDragon]

Maybe its power lies to the fact you have the option to build it in two different ways??? That's all i am trying to say... although yes.. a +2 power buff would be good...

Having the option to build it would matter more if it was Bronze or Silver where damage based removal, schorch and the like are things to play around more often. Golds are harder to affect and thus their potential gain is far more important than versatility.

 

[RedSocialKnight]

I feel like any buff to the effect would run the risking of becoming much too strong, though.

And, as a starter gold, the card is probably is intended to be something you grow out of.

However, what about something like "When you mulligan a dwarf or elf, resurrect Saesenthessis"?

That way you'd rarely get to use its effect a second time (I guess if you have something with resilience, or you mulligan wardancer and your opponent has something with resilience for you to target, but...) but it would add a lot of long-term value.

 

[TriforceDragon]

I feel like any buff to the effect would run the risking of becoming much too strong, though.

And, as a starter gold, the card is probably is intended to be something you grow out of.

However, what about something like "When you mulligan a dwarf or elf, resurrect Saesenthessis"?

That way you'd rarely get to use its effect a second time (I guess if you have something with resilience, or you mulligan wardancer and your opponent has something with resilience for you to target, but...) but it would add a lot of long-term value.

Nilfgaard starts with Cahir. If he is supposed to be someone you grow out of then they balanced it pretty poorly.

Saesenthessis is weak and unreliable compared to neutral golds, starter neutral golds at that.

But if I understand your suggestion right, would she not just be free 7 points every single round? People already run Saskia just for the one off boost, Saesenthessis would be completely broken with that effect.

I do agree any buffs made must be handled carefully, but she is too unreliable at the moment.

 

[zhiphius]

I would be quite happy with a:

Saesenthessis: 8 str gold.
Deploy: Scatter enemies and allies alike in every direction forcing them to change rows. (she's a blithing huge dragon afterall )

A nice, maybe a tad bit powerful, change for movement scoia'tael.

Mulligan:

Saesenthessis: 7 str gold.
Deploy: Mulligan twice. Effort: Boost self by the last mulliganed cards power (if last card you mulligan has 5 str and 3 boost, she'll get 8 power. First card mulliganed will not boost her).

Was thinking 6 strength actually, but 7 is fine too. Would also open her up for movement archtype as well as other unfinished archtypes. More "general" use. And more useful than her current self.