"Sandbox" vs. "RPG": mutually exclusive?

[wisdom000]

My point is not "I want to enter every building". My point is that I do not want the game bog down to scenery hunting where most of the content feels disjointed or otherwise completely filler.

I give Bethesda games shit, because that's exactly what they are. Disjointed messes (paradoxes: the emptiest games whose seams are bursting from the weight of the amount of content). I'd never want that for CP.

Meh, matter of taste I guess.... Fallout 3 and New Vegas are two of the very best video games I have ever played... along with GTA: San Andreas, Saints Row 2, and Sleeping Dogs...

But I suspect our tastes in games are pretty far apart.

For me, a mashup of Sleeping Dogs and Fallout NV is exactly what I want from this game.... with the garage system and diversity and size of the San Andreas map, and the character and vehicle customization of SR2, and possibly the co-operative online play as well. All set in the 2020 world.

That would be my absolutely perfect game.

I don't necessarily expect all that, but I am going to try with my dying breath to make it happen.

 

[Blothulfur]

The Ultima's 4-7 created a world of breathtaking depth and a real living feel that the hiking simulators have still yet to match, and the rpg elements were imspired and reactive. They were done twenty or more years ago, time we at least matched them.

Edit: For the record I felt New Vegas came damn close, damn good game, especially the dlc.

 

[Sardukhar]

For me, a mashup of Sleeping Dogs and Fallout NV is exactly what I want from this game

That would be my absolutely perfect game.

I don't necessarily expect all that, but I am going to try with my dying breath to make it happen.

That would be a pretty sweet game.

I don't know what my perfect vision of this game is - I look forward to finding out! I didn't know you were dying, Wisdom. That's sad. Deeply sad. Now mail me your table.

Or were you being...dramaTIC?!!?!

 

[wisdom000]

That would be a pretty sweet game.

I don't know what my perfect vision of this game is - I look forward to finding out! I didn't know you were dying, Wisdom. That's sad. Deeply sad. Now mail me your table.

Or were you being...dramaTIC?!!?!

I dunno, I will tell you when my blood pressure drops

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Meh, matter of taste I guess.... Fallout 3 and New Vegas are two of the very best video games I have ever played... along with GTA: San Andreas, Saints Row 2, and Sleeping Dogs...

But I suspect our tastes in games are pretty far apart.

For me, a mashup of Sleeping Dogs and Fallout NV is exactly what I want from this game.... with the garage system and diversity and size of the San Andreas map, and the character and vehicle customization of SR2, and possibly the co-operative online play as well. All set in the 2020 world.

That would be my absolutely perfect game.

I don't necessarily expect all that, but I am going to try with my dying breath to make it happen.

Matter of taste, yes.

Obsidian did swell job in New Vegas as far as narrative structuring (and writing in general) goes, but the downscaled sandbox map did hurt the overall feeling of it.

For me, the ideal solution would be (few) hubs (somewhat) similiar in size to Flotsam and its surrounding wilderness in Witcher 2. That, with a vistapoint from which I can see the (prerendered) vastness of Nigh City span towards the horizon in every direction. I would happily see most the areas that are not needed (in concrete) to be playable not included, but told about. That would give me much more room to interpret the information, rather than experiencing it in concrete even though most of it amounts to "dead gaming".

From my point of view, going all out sandox - even if I undertstand the appeal - is ass backwards approach in games where scale is supposed to count.

 

[Sardukhar]

I dunno, I will tell you when my blood pressure drops

Clench your left fist and breathe three in, three hold, three out.

 

[Aditya]

Fallout 3 was banned in Australia (and another which I don't remember) due to different controversies and here in India MS itseld didn't release it for not hurting cultural sentiments. I hate idiotic people and their bullshit thinking. I just hope some sort of crap doesn't happen here, well this is the only game I know which was banned here so not much sweat but still just saying. Its a shame one these big corps, this way they are themselves promoting piracy.

 

[gregski]

The RPG element people keep talking about doesn't even really have a consistent definition. And story driven games over all tend to be dissapointing with little reason to ever come back.

FYI, CDPR makes story driven games with so many reasons to go back that there are people who played the Witcher 2 10+ more times and keep coming back to it. Yes, it has closed areas, hell, it's even played chapter by chapter and every one of them takes place in a different area and you can't go back to previous areas. And people keep playing the shit out of this game because of the narrative, the characters and the choices this game gives to the player.

 

[Sardukhar]

And people keep playing the shit out of this game because of the narrative, the characters and the choices this game gives to the player.

Well, to be fair, also because people. There are people right now replaying some incredibly repetitive games - or games I find to be so - such as Diablo or, say, Max Payne, just because they like that kind of gameplay.

I found Witcher 2 to be less free form than WItcher 1.

 

[Aver]

Well, to be fair, also because people. There are people right now replaying some incredibly repetitive games - or games I find to be so - such as Diablo or, say, Max Payne, just because they like that kind of gameplay.

I found Witcher 2 to be less free form than WItcher 1.

I don't think that it's because gameplay, because some of those people that replay the shit out of TW2 hate new combat mechanics.

 

[wisdom000]

FYI, CDPR makes story driven games with so many reasons to go back that there are people who played the Witcher 2 10+ more times and keep coming back to it. Yes, it has closed areas, hell, it's even played chapter by chapter and every one of them takes place in a different area and you can't go back to previous areas. And people keep playing the shit out of this game because of the narrative, the characters and the choices this game gives to the player.

Honestly, I am not even the slightest bit interested in the Witcher. I hear good things about them, obviously they know how to make a game people like... but niether the fantasy genre, nor the way the game seems structured hold an appeal to me. Honestly, it sounds like Deus Ex:HR with swords... and I want nothing to do with that.

I am sure there are people to whom revisiting narrative is appealing. But if I want narrative, if I want something purely story driven, I will read a book or watch a movie. This is 2013, and I have no interest in playing a game where my path is predetermined. I will probably give Last Of Us a shot, bcause the premise looks interesting... but not until the price is less than 20 bucks, because more than that and its just not worth it to me.

 

[Sardukhar]

But if I want narrative, if I want something purely story driven, I will read a book or watch a movie. This is 2013, and I have no interest in playing a game where my path is predetermined.

Every game you play has a very large element of predetermination. You know that, too. Of course you do. Even Saints Row 2, you don't get Superpowers nor are you going to be running for and keeping public office. You aren't going through police boot camp and serving on the streets as a cop. The game isn't about those things.

I can't activate my cyber cloaking in SR 2 and punch a man through a wall while running errands for my corporate master. SR 2 does not offer me that.

I'm reading the latest of Joe Abercrombie's books, Red Country. I'm getting about 5-6 hours of steady fun from it. $6 per hour, in hardcover, because I didn't want to wait.

I played Deus Ex HR for 130 hours, because I am psycho. It cost me $50. That's about 38 cents per hour. Pretty damn good value, frankly. And I enjoyed everyone one of those hours, too.

Question is, why WOULD I read a book or watch a movie when I have these great stories available to me?

 

[Garrison72]

Wisdom, you may be in for a letdown then. CDPR isn't going to abandon a story heavy approach. But don't let the way The Witcher is structured put you off. Since CP will be open world, I doubt they'll use the chapter based structure. And as far as TW2 being pre-determined, nothing is further from the truth. No other RPG I've played changes as much with each playthrough. Other Witcher fans can chime in here but to give you an idea, conversations and reading make up around 40% of the game.

No doubt things will be different for CP and exploration will be important, but you can be certain a reactive story will play a large role.

 

[wisdom000]

Every game you play has a very large element of predetermination. You know that, too. Of course you do. Even Saints Row 2, you don't get Superpowers nor are you going to be running for and keeping public office. You aren't going through police boot camp and serving on the streets as a cop. The game isn't about those things.

I can't activate my cyber cloaking in SR 2 and punch a man through a wall while running errands for my corporate master. SR 2 does not offer me that.

I'm reading the latest of Joe Abercrombie's books, Red Country. I'm getting about 5-6 hours of steady fun from it. $6 per hour, in hardcover, because I didn't want to wait.

I played Deus Ex HR for 130 hours, because I am psycho. It cost me $50. That's about 38 cents per hour. Pretty damn good value, frankly. And I enjoyed everyone one of those hours, too.

Question is, why WOULD I read a book or watch a movie when I have these great stories available to me?

The ending may be predetermined... the story events may be predetermined, but the order in which it happens, how I approach them, and everything in between should be left to me.


Until holodecks are a reality, there will never be a game that allows me the complete unbridled freedom of a pen and paper game. However I will always take the closest I can get to that freedom.

It wasnt until I played the first GTA that I had ever played a video game that even gave me a facsimile of that freedom. And 15 years later the open world/sadnbox games are still the only things that give me that feeling of freedom.

Sadly, some of those games fail at their basic premises. the Mercenaries series had me all excited... till I found out you couldn't just store vehicles at your place... so that game went back after an hour of playing. I won't play Just Cause for the same reasons. Well that and because it just looks silly. So they aren't always perfect... my OCD must be catered to as well... but they come closer than any other games I try to play. I have really only had this attitude towards game for about the last 8 months... after playing fallout NV, I bought Deus Ex... and damn, it just was like a switch being flipped...

 

[Aver]

I'm just happy that I'm not as picky as you Wisdom.

 

[Sardukhar]

The ending may be predetermined... the story events may be predetermined, but the order in which it happens, how I approach them, and everything in between should be left to me.


Until holodecks are a reality, there will never be a game that allows me the complete unbridled freedom of a pen and paper game.

It wasnt until I played the first GTA that I had ever played a video game that even gave me a facsimile of that freedom. And 15 years later the open world/sadnbox games are still the only things that give me that feeling of freedom.

I won't play Just Cause for the same reasons. Well that and because it just looks silly.

Didn't it, though? Just couldn't get into JC. I liked Far Cry 3.

See, I perceive the same lack of freedom in GTA and SR - they've just swapped a few bits about. I can go more places, but there is little to nothing to do when I get there. So you arguably hijack a Delta and whip up to Orbit in Cyberpunk 2020 - but any sane GM will shake hsi head at you and point out there are other players, plot already online, not intereste din running that scenario, etc.

In our WoD group, I call this, "taking the boat to Egypt". My lead player Kutaka, down at the docks at Rome, saw the ships being loaded for Egypt and said, "Hey, Sard, I think I'm going to Egypt." He didn't, because he had a plot line he was interested in following and I would probably have done something horrid to him for making me improv the rest of the campaign. He could have gone, though. Technically. But why would he?

Complete freedom in tabletop is an illusion. I'm running SLA Industries these days and if you try for complete freedom, your time will be spent making new characters. You will never play. Giving the foolish player the exact same result as someone who actually isn't playing or even looking at char creation.

What I'm saying is, gameplay and story define the limits and the reasons for play. Sure, you think you're free because you can -choose- the action in Saints Row 2 - but still from a tiny list and still within a narrow range of responses.

The rest is flavour preferences.

 

[wisdom000]

I'm just happy that I'm not as picky as you Wisdom.

On anything else... I really wouldn't be... and its probably kinda pathetic that the Cyberpunk franchise means this much to me...but it does.

And with my limited means atm, I have to be extremely picky about what games I pick up... so if its not giving me the absolute best bang for my buck, I am jsut not interested... maybe when I find work again my mind will change on what games I am willing to pay for.

As it is, I am probably to outspoken, way to opinionated... it's something I have been working on for a long time.

Didn't it, though? Just couldn't get into JC. I liked Far Cry 3.

See, I perceive the same lack of freedom in GTA and SR - they've just swapped a few bits about. I can go more places, but there is little to nothing to do when I get there. So you arguably hijack a Delta and whip up to Orbit in Cyberpunk 2020 - but any sane GM will shake hsi head at you and point out there are other players, plot already online, not intereste din running that scenario, etc.

In our WoD group, I call this, "taking the boat to Egypt". My lead player Kutaka, down at the docks at Rome, saw the ships being loaded for Egypt and said, "Hey, Sard, I think I'm going to Egypt." He didn't, because he had a plot line he was interested in following and I would probably have done something horrid to him for making me improv the rest of the campaign. He could have gone, though. Technically. But why would he?

Complete freedom in tabletop is an illusion. I'm running SLA Industries these days and if you try for complete freedom, your time will be spent making new characters. You will never play. Giving the foolish player the exact same result as someone who actually isn't playing or even looking at char creation.

What I'm saying is, gameplay and story define the limits and the reasons for play. Sure, you think you're free because you can -choose- the action in Saints Row 2 - but still from a tiny list and still within a narrow range of responses.

The rest is flavour preferences.

Maybe it is just flaour... I never said my opinion was anything more than that... but then again, I just have more fun in a sandbox world... its undeniable. Hell I cannot even begin to tell you the hours I have spent in GTA or Saints Row just getting my cars exactly the way I want them, and arranged in the order/place I want them...

Do you have any idea how hard it is to arrange cars in a garage that doesn't have a mechanic for that? But I have accomplished that in both Saints Row 2 and 3... as I said, my OCD must be sated in my games...

In fallout New Vegas I have at least 1 o every single weapon in the game...2 if they can be modded, 3 if its something i like carrying. Same with the outfits.

In Deus Ex, I had a bathroom absolutely filled with every weapon in the game and ton of ammo.... only to find out that I never get to go back to it...Now the only reason I even think of picking up the game again is to try and kill every last living mother fucker in that city.... but even that doesn't really seem worth it to me.

While to some, these things are unimportant, and doing something like that is unimportant and a complete waste of time... to me its a core part of what makes the game fun... as utterly sad as that sounds...

 

[Sardukhar]

While to some, these things are unimportant, and doing something like that is unimportant and a complete waste of time... to me its a core part of what makes the game fun... as utterly sad as that sounds...

Naaah. Your OCD has paid off for those of us still following or playing CP2020. It's kind of like a superpower! If it deprives you from enjoying the virtualization of that crazy shared world, though, then, yeah, that would suck big time.

Not to mention, your design goals only improve the game. It's not like a great big open-world with a garage would detract from a well-plotted, intricate Cyberpunk story at all. Quite the opposite - replay value is STILL what gives the Elder Scrolls such selling punch.

I hope CDPR has a big banner in their office, against one wall, that says in Polish, "REPLAY VALUE". And a slightly smaller one that says, " and modding!"

Yeah. That's one of the few issues I have with CDPR - their replay value is lower than TES or GTA or what have you. Once I finish the core story, feels odd to wander around in these scripted sequences and wide-but-still corridors again.

 

[wisdom000]

I'm just happy that I'm not as picky as you Wisdom.

Naaah. Your OCD has paid off for those of us still following or playing CP2020. It's kind of like a superpower! If it deprives you from enjoying the virtualization of that crazy shared world, though, then, yeah, that would suck big time.

Not to mention, your design goals only improve the game. It's not like a great big open-world with a garage would detract from a well-plotted, intricate Cyberpunk story at all. Quite the opposite - replay value is STILL what gives the Elder Scrolls such selling punch.

I hope CDPR has a big banner in their office, against one wall, that says in Polish, "REPLAY VALUE". And a slightly smaller one that says, " and modding!"

Yeah. That's one of the few issues I have with CDPR - their replay value is lower than TES or GTA or what have you. Once I finish the core story, feels odd to wander around in these scripted sequences and wide-but-still corridors again.

That's........ that's um............ in a weird way that's one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me.....

Thank you...

 

[gregski]

Yeah. That's one of the few issues I have with CDPR - their replay value is lower than TES or GTA or what have you. Once I finish the core story, feels odd to wander around in these scripted sequences and wide-but-still corridors again.

So there's more replay value in a game that you can go anywhere but there's nothing to do once you get there...and less in a game that has a branching storyline, quests with different outcomes and 16 ending variations? Or maybe we understand "replay value" differently?