Sarkeesian predicts Witcher 3 will be "misogynist".

[sharpappple]

To a large extent, I agree with vivaxardas. I don't, however, agree entirely with StaGiors, in particular with this:


While I agree that there should be equal respect for those activities traditionally carried out by women, I think that for full equality it's also necessary to remove the concept that any of these, other than the strictly biological ones relating to childbirth, should continue to be considered as gender-linked. Even though society may accept women doing "man's work" and men doing "women's work", for as long as it continues to be described as such, there will continue to be a social stigma attached to it, that somehow it is "less feminine" to have a career or "less masculine" to raise the children. The traditional reasons for the separation of roles have gone, at least in the first world, and the attitudes also need to change.

I do fully agree with this though:

which is what disturbs me most about the current direction that feminism is going in. It seems to be all about hate and competition, and not at all about respect. If we women can't respect men for what they are, rather than what we would want them to be, how can we possibly expect them to respect us for what WE are?

I was just reading this ,It is interesting that woman liberation is talked about in class terms. I just wanted to add though that my understanding of traditional feminism, that was the dominant influence on the women's movement during the 1960's and 70's, started as an idea that only further divided men from women. From what I know feminism started from the view that men always oppress woman, that there is something inherent in men's biology or physiological make up which made them treat woman as inferior. The mistaken idea of human nature as a result of current social divisions dose not keep in mind our history, our dynamic social views, and exceptions to this view. Feminism led to the view that liberation was only possible by the separation of women from men, to what degree of separation varies among different feminist groups. This form of feminism complacently ignores that woman's oppression came out of the development of privet property and with the emergence of societies based on class and not from what is considered the nature of men. And I take offence to being labeled as being sexist by nature. woman's oppression comes from societies class system that has and still dose enforce many forms of oppression through state apparatus such as laws, media, etc. oppression is linked not to government or to nature, it is not government that dictates societies values or their own for that matter, it is not decided by nature, because I know that human nature and culture is dynamic, you can see it and experience it. sexism is supported by people who benefit from it. so who benefits from it? what is the function of sexism?

I think these feminists have no idea that the world of the witcher is. Although it has faults, it is meant to, because it is depicting a very real world. The witcher books and games much like our society is in a state of social change that sees the rise of women like Sabrina Glevissig, or Philippa Eilheart, who posses extraordinary influence in an extraordinarily oppressive society. These women despite their circumstances can tell the most powerful and sexist members of the world, kings, to shut up in front of their subjects. this world is also coming to terms with class and the availability of education (magical education) that see the rise of individuals like the vilgeforts who rose literally from a gutter in Lan Exeter to play the political game's of kings. The witcher world even looks into issues of race and racism through the oppression of non humans. to write the games off and label them as sexist is to ignore completely the function of literature and entertainment. The function of the world and its characters is not to be sexist or to spread sexist views. If you are looking to combat sexism, challenge growing identities on social media or etc that use and reinforce those kinds of values as they are helped along by large corporations who's function requires that these values continue to alienate. The witcher games commit insignificant transgressions in my opinion.

this situation makes me think of a painting called Olimpia that was created in the 1800's. it was considered the norm at that period to paint classical Greek goddesses naked. unfortunately during its exhibition it had to be moved higher because some twats where trying to hit it with their walking sticks. why? because the painting was a mirror for those who saw it. Olimpia was also at the time a common name for prostitutes. and the painting although of a woman in the pose that goddess was a prostitute, and a rich one. the painting was social commentary for the rich twats paying for sex with large amounts of money behind there wives backs allowing these sex workers to rise to celebrity fame. someone today without the context might call the painter sexist for painting a portrait of prostitute if that is all you see, and all you see is lust and vices. was the painting a portrait of a sex worker? or was the portrait a painting of the people that viewed it?

to top it off the artist decided to exhibit this work along side another one of his painting... it was called Jesus mocked by soldiers. how he managed to exhibit it... god only knows.

anyway completely unrelated

 

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

This is veering towards a discussion that has little to do with TW3, right?

I see.

I think the often alluded to claim needs to be inspected.

If, as a general rule, women were able to do everything men can and as competently as men, then that would seem to indicate women were the superior gender. For women would be able to do everything men can plus the exclusive things they alone can do such as giving birth. The question then becomes why would Nature engender such a scenario? What benefits would humankind reap from such an asymmetric situation where one gender has the absolute upper hand? One could argue that in the long evolutionary run, men would become obsolete.

On the contrary, from an evolutionary biology standpoint it seems to me that it makes sense, as a general principle, for men and women to have complementary traits. Men and women are not equal. They're equivalent.

One has to ask which distinctive feature, as a general principle, do men have over women which serves Life.

 

[dragonbird]

I was just reading this ,It is interesting that woman liberation is talked about in class terms. I just wanted to add though that my understanding of traditional feminism, that was the dominant influence on the women's movement during the 1960's and 70's, started as an idea that only further divided men from women.

I lived through this, although to a certain degree that means my knowledge is set by personal experience, which is limiting in its own way. I started work in 1978, which means that I saw huge changes in career expectations from being a child in the early '60s (Teacher) to when I actually started work (Anything I wanted).

Even in the '60s and '70s there was a sharp difference between the "practical" feminists and the "radical" feminists. It was an era when there were massive changes being seen in the UK at a practical level, sexual liberation, total acceptance of the concept of a "working wife" as the norm, the start of equality legislation in the workplace. It was a good time to be a woman, we were fully aware of what the activists had achieved, and most of it was WITHOUT antagonising men. And yes, at the same time there were the radicals such as Germaine Greer, who were definitely considered an influence, but whose views weren't especially respected, or agreed with by any girl I knew, even though all of us firmly believed we were the equal of any man. But not superior. Our friends (platonic or otherwise) were boys, we respected them and expected them to respect us.

@Jupiter on Mars - yes, that's the argument used by the radicals. Men are unnecessary and inferior. The basic flaw is the concept of superiority as being a) a group quality and b ) of importance. You can't state that because women in general are as capable as men, that means that THIS woman is as capable as THAT man. Individual skills, abilities and biology still apply. All that should be necessary is that the judgement, if it is necessary at all, should be based on the individual and not on the simple fact that one is male and one is female.

So do you think we should move this to Community?

 

[Kinley]

So do you think we should move this to Community?

I would say yes. This thread stopped being about Witcher 3 after the first post.

 

[StaGiors]

I think the whole labeling a game sexist/racist etc is simply History repeating itself.

Since Video Games are a relatively new form of entertainment, that only very recently can be considered as having educational values, it is suffering from what Movies have had in the past. For so many years, nudity and sex were forbidden from Movies and TV. That was because Movies were something new back then, and not widely accepted as a medium of educational value.

Thus, Video Games get criticized much more severely than they should, and most of the times, the criticism is not supported by logic. Much like this case. Which is the result of the attitude of criticism towards Video Gaming in general.

I guess we can hope that the "transition" for Video Gaming, will be much faster than what happened with Cinema. Since everything nowadays seems to move much faster, I think it is somewhat safe to assume so.

Also yeah, I agree with this being moved to the Community section.

 

[sharpappple]

I lived through this, although to a certain degree that means my knowledge is set by personal experience, which is limiting in its own way. I started work in 1978, which means that I saw huge changes in career expectations from being a child in the early '60s (Teacher) to when I actually started work (Anything I wanted).

Even in the '60s and '70s there was a sharp difference between the "practical" feminists and the "radical" feminists. It was an era when there were massive changes being seen in the UK at a practical level, sexual liberation, total acceptance of the concept of a "working wife" as the norm, the start of equality legislation in the workplace. It was a good time to be a woman, we were fully aware of what the activists had achieved, and most of it was WITHOUT antagonising men. And yes, at the same time there were the radicals such as Germaine Greer, who were definitely considered an influence, but whose views weren't especially respected, or agreed with by any girl I knew, even though all of us firmly believed we were the equal of any man. But not superior. Our friends (platonic or otherwise) were boys, we respected them and expected them to respect us.

thanks you this is important because I am running purely on text book. I know there are degrees, I was just giving my very basic understanding of feminism.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

-I'm not arguing with sex cards, because I thought they were a poor design choice. But they could be interpreted in different ways even in a romantic way. Maybe Geralt took his time and drew them to cherish his time with a lover.

Please. No, they were collectibles, nothing romantic about them.
With such apologism I can make anything look good.

-Go to a bar, and there's a good chance that you'll make the silliest encounters and you'll end up having sex. Are bars misogynistic ? Is sex misogynistic ? Why do you assume that Geralt used those women as sex toys ? Why not assume that Geralt was used as a sex toy by those women ?

Telling Triss one nice word --> sex (act 1, after she is injured)
Giving an elf bread, then telling her to calm down --> sex (act 4)
Wanting to spare a vampire --> necessary foursome (act 3)
...etc

This kind of silly encounters. An obvious power trip given to the player.

-There are plenty of cases where two women fight over or for a common goal. I do not think they were portrayed as children, and think they each thought that Alvin would be safer with them. They fought for the safety of a child, because they each had confidence in themselves that she would be able to protect and guide Alvin the best.

No, not at all. They were fighting over Geralt, both of them made it clear. Alvin was a tool. If you romance Shani, for instance, and give the child to Triss, she breaks it off with Geralt because in her mind, Geralt doesn't like her enough. It was idiotic and made both women appear like children, incapable of rationally thinking about Alvin's well being and only concerned with who Geralt likes more.

-Is there any special number of serious and active *main* female characters that would make the game not misogynistic ?
Plus Saskia was a main character, as she was there for a whole chapter and she was very influential.

Talking about TW1, not TW2.
TW2 had several main female characters, awesome ones at that. TW1 only had 1.

-Many would say the fact that Geralt's penis was not shown is misandrist or anti-men. Female's body is deemed beautiful and it was fully shown, while a penis was deemed as ugly and disgusting and that's why it was not shown. As you see there are two ways of interpreting this.

No actually, it's to protect men from "gayness", because men have very insecure sexualities these days.
Regardless of the reason, we end up with fully naked women and no naked men. Misogynistic (which is a side of the same coin with mysandric elements. Both stem from the same source, a social system that ascribes gender roles)

-I wouldn't call Loredo's mother or the madam very attractive. Some women might find Letho to be attractive; the manly face and muscles might be attractive to some women.

They are not main characters, I emphasized main.
And yes I'm sure some can find Loredo's mother attractive (Bloth), but we are talking about conventional beauty. All main female characters have top models looks, by our society's standards. Men are more varied.

-Free women show cleavage in free countries even today. Women and men want to show off their beauty, and thus both genders wear cloth to attract attention of the opposite sex. Some say restricting women from wearing provocative clothing is misogynist.

Indeed. But for a woman in armor to expose her cleavage is impractical, both for not binding her breasts and for exposing her chest / neck. It has nothing to do with women being restricted and more to do with women being made to dress in a way that is impractical for their goal for eye candy purposes.

-Same point as above. And Ves states that she is still a woman, and she needs to hear that she is beautiful and get attention from time to time. Same goes for men.

Not when she is a soldier, expected to fight at any moment. It would have been nice, out of duty, to see her wearing whatever she wants. But when on duty, she needs to dress up like the Blue Stripes do.

-Yeah. People say many things, but that doesn't mean they are true. people might say Ves is great, but it might be proven otherwise in action.

Except Ves was not even given the chance to show anything, not even if she is bad. Her sole role in the plot, is to get almost raped once, and then get raped.
We are told she is an impressive soldier, and yet we never see her in her role (except once when she shoots a crossbow).
Not to mention the fact that she was completely dropped from the plot and story after Act 2. We don't see her after what happened to her, making it seem more like she fulfilled her role in the plot and thus became unnecessary, as opposed to an actual character that we may have started to care about (and I did, and I was pissed she just got dropped). Ves was an excellent character that was completely misused and neglected by the game.

It is a shame.

-How the fact that the actor doesn't do a good job makes the game misogynist ? Are you suggesting that CDPR deliberately chose a passive actress to make the game misogynist out of hatred for women ?

Passive in her role in the plot. I thought it was obvious what I meant.

Misogyny is not necessarily an active and explicit hatred of women. Most misogyny, the treatment of women in inferior ways, is undeliberate. Someone can be very chivalrous and so seemingly respectful, and still be misogynistic, even if he doesn't realize it.

But in any case, I am not interested in delving into Feminist theory, as defining misogyny fully would require of me. I don't think CDPR is deliberately misogynistic, but sadly they end up being in a number of ways. Though, as I have said earlier, not any more than the deplorable industrial norms, and TW2 was a drastic improvement.

 

[wichat]

The unique real reason is that she imagines to be in Yen situation and she's got a bestfriend like Triss who's stealed her boyfreind. She feels so humilliated and angry in real life but she cannot face her bestfriend so she pits on a game in which she sees her trauma reflected making a rear-projection focusing them on a prism of nonexistent misogyny...

 

[Goran.hr]

Just like many other "important" internet personalities, she is trying to present her personal interests as a morality issue.

 

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

Requiring that when it comes to Geralt and Geralt's female partners there should be equal amounts of nudity and equating the lack thereof to misogyny is sheer bogus. This is a story told from Geralt's POV - even if seen through 3rd person lens - and as such it is entirely reasonable, in fact I'd say required, that there should be an asymmetric emphasis on the female body, because that's what Geralt's gaze would rest upon.

This is fiction 101.

 

[GuyNwah]

The unique real reason is that she imagines to be in Yen situation and she's got a bestfriend like Triss who's stealed her boyfreind. She feels so humilliated and angry in real life but she cannot face her bestfriend so she pits on a game in which she sees her trauma reflected making a rear-projection focusing them on a prism of nonexistent misogyny...

:hatsoff:
wichat gets to the heart of the matter in two sentences and wins the thread.

 

[wichat]

:hatsoff:
wichat gets to the heart of the matter in two sentences and wins the thread.

Thanks, Guy. A couple of books helped me a lot: "How psycoloanalyse a Stranger and "Easy Psyco for Morons"

 

[didymos1120]

I think the whole labeling a game sexist/racist etc is simply History repeating itself.

Since Video Games are a relatively new form of entertainment, that only very recently can be considered as having educational values, it is suffering from what Movies have had in the past. For so many years, nudity and sex were forbidden from Movies and TV. That was because Movies were something new back then, and not widely accepted as a medium of educational value.

There was actually a fair amount of nudity and sexual content in early films. It wasn't until the introduction of the Hays Code that things got all prim and proper.

 

[GuyNwah]

There was actually a fair amount of nudity and sexual content in early films. It wasn't until the introduction of the Hays Code that things got all prim and proper.

And told to put women in their place, which was not in charge of anything outside of a home. Sexist is as sexist does, and the Church, government, and studios didn't want women seen as being able to succeed out of their place.

Example: Ruth Chatterton in Female (1933; Michael Curtiz, dir.) A woman, for that matter one in control of her own sexuality, as head of a major corporation was so threatening that characters like her had to be banned.
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/301932/Female-Movie-Clip-Drake-Motor-Car.html

 

[wichat]

and a dirty underground competition among publishers, some of them flying the flag of a pseudo-equality, abusing of a "politically correct" status. And giving some notoriety blogger like these.
An issue impossible to prove but no one doubts the method: The best advertising is by word of mouth

 

[EmperorZorn]

Thanks, Guy. A couple of books helped me a lot: "How psycoloanalyse a Stranger and "Easy Psyco for Morons"

With your books and my bookmark, we'll be unstoppable wichat !

...at least until we meet a blogger with a kindle full of e-books on "How to troll game communities".

 

[wichat]

With your books and my bookmark, we'll be unstoppable wichat !

...at least until we meet a blogger with a kindle full of e-books on "How to troll game communities".

I've seen it

Spoiler

Just take a little look to my Yen at my artwork and make some criticism, please )

 

[volsung]

I can't believe you guys really take these things seriously, and 12 pages later here we are. I am starting to believe some of you actually like drama, but remember when you defend the game IN these forums you're just preaching to the choir. Good venting nonetheless.

I am glad the thread diverted into a discussion of what elements these games may actually have, that would lead someone to feel "offended" with or without reason. I think we can all agree the games will only get better thematically. The Witcher is a complex setting and CDPR is relatively new to game development, so while they may not have handled everything the best possible way (Triss' playboy photos didn't exactly help this case), this is not a setting that can be judged lightly. It is full of nuances and subtleties.

It's funny we can probably pinpoint more questionable elements than the alleged feminist. In any case, let's turn this into something positive, such as "what elements we're not fully comfortable with could CDPR address in the future?". Remember CP2077 is coming...

 

[wichat]

I can't believe you guys really take these things seriously, and 12 pages later here we are. I am starting to believe some of you actually like drama, but remember when you defend the game IN these forums you're just preaching to the choir. Good venting nonetheless.

I am glad the thread diverted into a discussion of what elements these games may actually have, that would lead someone to feel "offended" with or without reason. I think we can all agree the games will only get better thematically. The Witcher is a complex setting and CDPR is relatively new to game development, so while they may not have handled everything the best possible way (Triss' playboy photos didn't help this case), this is not a setting that can be judged lightly. It is full of nuances and subtleties.

It's funny we can probably pinpoint more questionable elements than the alleged feminist. In any case, let's turn this into something positive, such as "what elements we're not fully comfortable with could CDPR address in the future?". Remember CP2077 is coming...

Never mind... It's summer time! Too much heat in the air and some boring lassitude...

 

[EmperorZorn]

I've seen it

Spoiler

Just take a little look to my Yen at my artwork and make some criticism, please )

No need for modesty, wichat.

Everyone: if you want to see something more entertaining than a blogger with mental issues,
check out wichat's first 3d render of Yennefer and leave her some feedback.

Because creative people deserve more feedback than destructive attention-whores.

(..of course that doesn't mean that you should stop giving me feedback.)