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pagefault404

Senior user
#501
Dec 21, 2020
We have to consider that CDPR knew about this issue in REDengine 3, and never fixed it when they moved to REDengine 4, so to us a converter or a garbage collection process seem like easy fixes, but, we're on the outside looking in. There HAS to be a reason why this issue was not fixed. I'm more curious to know the technical reasons behind why it wasn't fixed than anything else. I'm not even mad about it, I'm just straight up curious.

If the are using int16 - or to be more precise uint16 (*) - then the fix could be as simple as changing it to uint32 and writing a converter.....The only problem with this fix is that each and every item in the player's inventor needs 2 bytes of memory additionally. This could lead them to exceed the requirements for consoles.
Click to expand...
Thinking about it more, I believe you're on to something here. Pushing compatibility with the now previous gen consoles could have tied their hands to using Uint16 for itemIDs, as using Uint32 would create space issues on the limited storage capacity of those consoles, or it could have even affected loading times in a detrimental way.
 
Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
FlorettaV

FlorettaV

Forum regular
#502
Dec 21, 2020
pagefault404 said:
I've been following this post, silently, since the beginning and refreshing it every day, reading the input here. THere's a lot of good information here, however, I feel like everyone was so quick to dismiss Sigilfey for his hot take about how to work around the issue, that they failed to even consider the valuable information he provided in one of his responses. I know a lot of people want to hate on the mods and the company right now, but, anyone interested in the history of this issue should read this.

Sigilfey linked to a post from The Witcher 3 forums made in 2017 that highlights the extensive testing done to uncover why saved games were going corrupt. Back then, they weren't hitting a size limit, but, they were hitting something else just as terminal, and it all stems from the REDengines handling of itemIDs. Back then, during the testing, the user that did all of this testing called this a runestone bomb, because it was best duplicated with runestones.

In The Witcher 3, the REDengine assigns a unique itemID for every single item you come across, even swords that are the same sword with the same stats, even stackable items. Every runestone got it's own itemID. The engine didn't see a stack of 1000 runestones as one item stacked 1000 times, but a stack of 1000 unique itemIDs. This is only part of the problem. Another issue the engine has, is, whenever you get rid of items, or keep them in your inventory whatever, every time you save and reload your game, that stack of 1000 runestones? It got 1000 MORE unique itemIDs, and the old itemIDs were not released from your save file inventory. They existed as ghost items.

So what players in The Witcher 3 were running in to, was an issue where, over time and after hoarding everything not nailed down, their save would surpass the 16bit integer used for itemIDs, which is 65,536. When this happened, your save would be corrupted because it would cause an itemID overflow, rendering the save file unreadable.

It's important to know about the history of this issue because I believe it plays a critical role in the current issue we're having now. Players who are getting corrupted saves smaller than 8MB are potentially surpassing the 65,536 limit for itemIDs on their saves, rendering their saves unreadable. Everyone else is hitting the max file size for saves, as noted in earlier posts where the EOF is not being written to the save file, like it magically gets cut off.

The problem, is that every unique itemID is causing save file bloat. The solution is obviously some kind of garbage collector process that removes these ghost itemIDs attached to our character inventories.

However, CDPR has known about this issue, because it was brought to their attention during The Witcher3 days, and yet the issue persisted when they improved REDengine 3 to 4. Why? Both answers will likely make your heart sink.

Either they CAN'T fix it, because it's some kind of inherent flaw tied to the engine that will completely break the way it handles inventory, or, they WON'T fix it, because doing so would cause irreparable harm to the way the inventory system functions, so much so that it would cost them a lot of time and money to fix, more so than correcting the issues on console.

I don't believe this issue was left in maliciously. I believe that, if they were even aware of this issue, they never imagined that people would either 1.) Hit the save file size limit, or 2.) Would exceed the 65,536 itemID limit. While it's short-sighted, again, I don't believe this is a malicious thing. I believe there's a reason for why the engine handles itemIDs this way, and I also believe that there's a reason why this issue has persisted since the days of TW3, maybe even earlier.

All of this is a hypothesis based on the testing done in the post SigilFey linked to way earlier in this post. You can find that post HERE and I would advise anyone and everyone read this post, because I believe this engine related issue is at the very core of what is going on.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
Click to expand...
Right. This is the post that is partly responsible for triggering my curiousity. I have read SigilFey's post and have read this TW3 post.

I can't deny that there is something going on with those unique identifiers. It can possibly result in corrupted saves, because, well, weird shit happens when you tell a computer you can't go higher than 65,536 and you do exceed that number. Computers don't compute.

But there are a lot of little details about the unique identifiers that make the data unstable. I've somewhat replied to that in an earlier post, but let me try to explain:

The test in TW3 post has tested added a single unique item to their inventory 65k times. That way the person exceeded the unique identifier. This doesn't proof if the unique identifier is noted per single item. For example:

Cyberpunk has 4 items. Pistol A, Pistol B, Hat C, Resource D.

If I add 65k Pistol A's to my inventory. Am I using the unique identifiers of Pistol A? Or am I using the unique identifier for Pistols in general? Or am I using the unique identifier of wearable gear? Or am I using the unique identifier of all obtainable items?

Now, the last one we can simply deduct. I've definitely got over 65k resources on my character. So it's not a unique identifier over all obtainable items. (remember: craft resources are seen as an actual item, as this was the case in TW3.)
EDIT:
Come to think of it; Since I've got over 65k resources, we can with some certainty say that the unique identifier goes per unique item (Pistol A has a different identifier to Pistol B), because my savegame isn't corrupted and I definitely got over 65k resources. So you'd need to gather 65k resources or 65k exactly the same base item to trigger this. I'll try to see if I can get 65k of the simplest resource.

I might consider adding some more items to my inventory via my macro, but I think it's going to tough to get enough resources to craft 65k items that aren't just grenades. And that's where the unique identifier kind of left my sight. If it's hard to proof with the resources I have on my 120 hours playthrough where I've picked up every single thing and disassembled that every single thing, then right now it's not the biggest concern.

I might've taken too short a route here, but right now I'm not really concerned about the item limit. Maybe I should be.


Apart from that. The savegame bloating doesn't necessarily have to do anything with the unique identifier. A unique identifier can simply be a number in your savegame that is used and added 1 to for future use.
If I'm stretching the idea you could possibly argue that savegame bloating happens because the game needs to remember all items in order to remember the unique identifier. That would be a dumb construction(my personal opinion), but it's a possibility. If that's the case, then I'm sure CDPR developers should know about that and do know about that.



As to not having been update in TW3. I think it's important to realise it took players 1500 hours to even come close to the issue's players are having in Cyberpunk after 80-120~ hours while still trying to finish the main story.


I am not trying to say the unique identifier isn't important and am also not trying to say we shouldn't be focussing on that problem too. I had personally written this problem off, because it seems a lot harder to reach than the actual save game limit of 8MB. They might have to do with eachother, which means that we don't specifically have to test that situation, because A should fix B.
To me it didn't feel like it was worth testing because of everything stated above.

If thoughts differ, I might consider figuring out a way to try and reach the unique identifier limit whilst trying to confirm if it's Pistol A, Pistols, or wearable items.
 
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Azulath

Azulath

Fresh user
#503
Dec 21, 2020
Molte said:
Of course, it would sound like a simple solution to just add a secondary int value, probably easier than converting existing values to float. Probably not a fun spaghetti digging coding task, but does not sound impossible.
Click to expand...
I think this solution is more error prone than converting to uint32 alltogether.
 
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I

ignacioantonio04

Fresh user
#504
Dec 21, 2020
pagefault404 said:
We have to consider that CDPR knew about this issue in REDengine 3, and never fixed it when they moved to REDengine 4, so to us a converter or a garbage collection process seem like easy fixes, but, we're on the outside looking in. There HAS to be a reason why this issue was not fixed. I'm more curious to know the technical reasons behind why it wasn't fixed than anything else. I'm not even mad about it, I'm just straight up curious.
Click to expand...
Yeah this is what I'm scared off. They knew about this before and they didn't think to change anything for this game. Well if they can't fix it for this game then they're shooting themselves in the foot for the future. In TW3 people reach this mark by playing 1000+ hrs. You can even finish TW3, HoS, BW at least 2 times in those saves. While here some hit this mark by just playing 100+ hrs. So then forget adding NG+ and expansions to this game if you're near the limit by the time you finish this game.
 
tehSynh

tehSynh

Fresh user
#505
Dec 21, 2020
cypberman2012 said:
This is a PRIORITY ZERO bug! Everything should be dropped to focus on this. That response (from a mod not a dev?) is unacceptable. To discourage your playerbase not to play the game too much or to just start another game to keep it under 8mb is some mental gymnastics disrespectful crap Jesus.

Losing your progress after dozens of hours, not being able to do everything in the game, this is probably the worst kind of bug gaming can have. PLEASE TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY AND FIX THIS ASAP! Not a half-ass fix either, I dont want to see old saves that wont work, it has to fix existing saves!
Click to expand...
Agreed.

OF COURSE I will loot everything, play every side mission, explore the whole world. And if I want to craft 9999 sniper rifles, deconstruct them and craft them again IT IS OK and should not lead to a game crashing/corrupt save file.

If you dupe/glitch whatever, then it is actually not "their" fault.

Still - this is 2020 "next gen" release of a story driven open world game. Why cant I spent 500+ hours in this world if I want to?! It wasnt meant to be?! Really? Sad and lazy excuse...
 
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Azulath

Azulath

Fresh user
#506
Dec 21, 2020
pagefault404 said:
We have to consider that CDPR knew about this issue in REDengine 3, and never fixed it when they moved to REDengine 4
Click to expand...
To be honest, they may have not considered it an issue at that point in time. Close to the release, they might have figured it out but then they had other priorities, failed to communicate it to the management or the management ignored it.
 
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pagefault404

Senior user
#507
Dec 21, 2020
Cyberpunk has 4 items. Pistol A, Pistol B, Hat C, Resource D.

If I add 65k Pistol A's to my inventory. Am I using the unique identifiers of Pistol A? Or am I using the unique identifier for Pistols in general? Or am I using the unique identifier of wearable gear? Or am I using the unique identifier of all obtainable items?
Click to expand...
The way I understand it is, each item has a generic itemID that will spawn said item, so like from the dev console you enter the itemID for Pistol A and it spawns one. However, the Pistol, when spawned, is given unique attributes, creating a unique item that gets it's very own unique itemID. This would explain why crafting weapons or armour, and not consumables, hits your save file the hardest. Mass creating weapons is burning up itemIDs which are then not released from your inventory when you dismantle or sell them.

This applies to all crafted items except consumables. Everyone seems to focus on consumables when they have shown to have the least impact on save file size, however, they still do have an impact. I think it's because consumables are the easiest to mass craft, as weapons and armour are the most resource intensive.

People who spec in crafting will mass craft weapons to reroll their stats to get the attributes they want. These are likely the people we need to get in touch with to do file bloat testing. I also agree that one issues doesn't necessarily cancel the other out. It's possible that both problems are related, making this a two-pronged issue.

To be honest, they may have not considered it an issue at that point in time. Close to the release, they might have figured it out but then they had other priorities, failed to communicate it to the management or the management ignored it.
Click to expand...
All very valid points.

Something else I thought of, this goes to FlorettaV, this issue with itemIDs from REDengine 3 is a permutation to the issue we're seeing now. It's possible that the handling of itemIDs is causing more problems because of the way things may have changed from REDengine 3 to REDengine 4. Maybe the issue has sort of become something else, but is an evolution of the issue in REDengine 3. By evolution I mean, the issue has changed in some way so that it may function the same way, by mishandling itemIDs, but, this mishandling of itemIDs could now have a larger impact on the save files than it did in REDengine 3
 
Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
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cIass101

cIass101

Fresh user
#508
Dec 21, 2020
Azulath said:
Either in gameservices.ini or nowhere. If it is nowhere, just created an ini file in <cyberpunk_dir>\engine\config\platform\pc\


I did a while back but it didn't fix the problem. But since you can test if the ini method is really working it might be worth a shot. Just create a an ini file in <cyberpunk_dir>\engine\config\platform\pc\ with the following content:
Code:
[GameServices]
MaxSaveSize = 16777216
MaxSaveSizeTotal = 20971520
Click to expand...
Here I tested the other way around, by creating a new game, saved, the initial save is 1.1 MB

So I tested to set the MaxSave* to 500 KB, but nothing about corruption, saves were loading fine.

I tested that in gameservices.ini and in a custom user.ini but nothing.

I'm assuming the values are not read from the ini files at all, but one shoud edit the default values directly in the Cyberpunk2077.exe file for it to work.

Trying to get my hands on a debugger, I'm able to hack that under Windows but under Linux I have to find good replacements to OllyDBG haha :D
 
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Azulath

Azulath

Fresh user
#509
Dec 21, 2020
cIass101 said:
Here I tested the other way around, by creating a new game, saved, the initial save is 1.1 MB

So I tested to set the MaxSave* to 500 KB, but nothing about corruption, saves were loading fine.

I tested that in gameservices.ini and in a custom user.ini but nothing.

I'm assuming the values are not read from the ini files at all, but one shoud edit the default values directly in the Cyberpunk2077.exe file for it to work.
Click to expand...
We can easily test that though:
github.com

yamashi/CyberEngineTweaks

Performance boost, bug fixes and hacks for fun for Cyberpunk 2077 - yamashi/CyberEngineTweaks
github.com github.com

This program has a dump_game_options flag in its config.json. Simply set it to true (and everything else to false when you don't want to use the mod) and check if the parameters change. You settings will be dumped in the log file.

Would be cool if someone could test it. Currently, I can't test this myself because I'm not at my gaming PC.
 
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FlorettaV

FlorettaV

Forum regular
#510
Dec 21, 2020
pagefault404 said:
The way I understand it is, each item has a generic itemID that will spawn said item, so like from the dev console you enter the itemID for Pistol A and it spawns one. However, the Pistol, when spawned, is given unique attributes, creating a unique item that gets it's very own unique itemID. This would explain why crafting weapons or armour, and not consumables, hits your save file the hardest. Mass creating weapons is burning up itemIDs which are then not released from your inventory when you dismantle or sell them.

This applies to all crafted items except consumables. Everyone seems to focus on consumables when they have shown to have the least impact on save file size, however, they still do have an impact. I think it's because consumables are the easiest to mass craft, as weapons and armour are the most resource intensive.

People who spec in crafting will mass craft weapons to reroll their stats to get the attributes they want. These are likely the people we need to get in touch with to do file bloat testing. I also agree that one issues doesn't necessarily cancel the other out. It's possible that both problems are related, making this a two-pronged issue.



All very valid points.
Click to expand...
Alright. That gives a new outlook. So that would mean trying to get my resources to 65k wouldn't really help, because those wouldn't fit in the picture.

I'll check if I can craft wearables to bloat my file. I have done a small test with this by crafting 260 hats. That did bloat the save file, but a bit less then the grenades did.

EDIT: More: Test if I reach unique modifiers or size first.
 
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pagefault404

Senior user
#511
Dec 21, 2020
cIass101 said:
Trying to get my hands on a debugger, I'm able to hack that under Windows but under Linux I have to find good replacements to OllyDBG haha :D
Click to expand...
I would be very lowkey about this. While I know CDPR are in a lot of hot water, if they suspect you're reverse engineering their product, even for benevolent purposes, they might void your ability to refund the game, or access it entirely as this is a violation of the EULA.

We all know you're trying to help, but, lawyers don't care.

FlorettaV said:
Alright. That gives a new outlook. So that would mean trying to get my resources to 65k wouldn't really help, because those wouldn't fit in the picture.

I'll check if I can craft wearables to bloat my file. I have done a small test with this by crafting 260 hats. That did bloat the save file, but a bit less then the grenades did.

EDIT: More: Test if I reach unique modifiers or size first.
Click to expand...
Keep in mind that all of this is speculation, and it's possible that i'm right, or even close to the mark, about how that works. It's the way that makes sense to me with my limited knowledge of messing around in dev consoles to spawn items. It's also possible that i've missed the mark by a mile and I am completely wrong. At this point, we're doing a lot of probing here, so, sometimes I sound like I know what I am talking about even when I get things wrong.
 
igrvks

igrvks

Fresh user
#512
Dec 21, 2020
pagefault404 said:
I would be very lowkey about this. While I know CDPR are in a lot of hot water, if they suspect you're reverse engineering their product, even for benevolent purposes, they might void your ability to refund the game, or access it entirely as this is a violation of the EULA.

We all know you're trying to help, but, lawyers don't care.
Click to expand...
It would be actually fitting that someone from the community actually fixes this and CDPR curbstomps them with a banhammer.
 
Azulath

Azulath

Fresh user
#513
Dec 21, 2020
igrvks said:
It would be actually fitting that someone from the community actually fixes this and CDPR curbstomps them with a banhammer.
Click to expand...
In all fairness though, CDPR has - contrary to other companies - not the reputation of suing their customers.
 
FlorettaV

FlorettaV

Forum regular
#514
Dec 21, 2020
pagefault404 said:
I would be very lowkey about this. While I know CDPR are in a lot of hot water, if they suspect you're reverse engineering their product, even for benevolent purposes, they might void your ability to refund the game, or access it entirely as this is a violation of the EULA.

We all know you're trying to help, but, lawyers don't care.



Keep in mind that all of this is speculation, and it's possible that i'm right, or even close to the mark, about how that works. It's the way that makes sense to me with my limited knowledge of messing around in dev consoles to spawn items. It's also possible that i've missed the mark by a mile and I am completely wrong. At this point, we're doing a lot of probing here, so, sometimes I sound like I know what I am talking about even when I get things wrong.
Click to expand...
Haha, yeah I get it. It's just a nice new idea which I can (although with a stretch) fit in what is happening. All of the things in this forum thread are based on assumptions and guesses. It's all we got right now :p

65k is probably going to take a while, but I'll see how far I can get with my own saves.
 
cIass101

cIass101

Fresh user
#515
Dec 21, 2020
Azulath said:
We can easily test that though:
github.com

yamashi/CyberEngineTweaks

Performance boost, bug fixes and hacks for fun for Cyberpunk 2077 - yamashi/CyberEngineTweaks
github.com github.com

This program has a dump_game_options flag in its config.json. Simply set it to true (and everything else to false when you don't want to use the mod) and check if the parameters change. You settings will be dumped in the log file.

Would be cool if someone could test it. Currently, I can't test this myself because I'm not at my gaming PC.
Click to expand...
This is what I thought, settings are hardcoded and not read in the ini files, here is the result

Code:
[2020-12-21 15:14:59.602] [info] GameServices/MaxSaveSize = 8388608
[2020-12-21 15:14:59.603] [info] GameServices/MaxSettingsSize = 4194304
[2020-12-21 15:14:59.603] [info] GameServices/MaxProfileSize = 4194304
[2020-12-21 15:14:59.603] [info] GameServices/ScreenshotBuffer = 1048576
[2020-12-21 15:14:59.603] [info] GameServices/MaxSaveSizeTotal = 12582912
 
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KeepItC00L

KeepItC00L

Fresh user
#516
Dec 21, 2020
It's really great to see the way this discussion is going. I just hope that CDPR will listen and fix asap. This is a benefit of great community, because a lot of people can brainstorm and try to look for solution (and in the end maybe help devs with finding the culprit for this bug).

Previous experience with CDPR was great, I just hope they will listen to community and keep improving the game. Behind all the bugs, there is a solid gaming experience.
 
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Azulath

Azulath

Fresh user
#517
Dec 21, 2020
cIass101 said:
This is what I thought, settings are hardcoded and not read in the ini files, here is the result

Code:
[2020-12-21 15:14:59.602] [info] GameServices/MaxSaveSize = 8388608
[2020-12-21 15:14:59.603] [info] GameServices/MaxSettingsSize = 4194304
[2020-12-21 15:14:59.603] [info] GameServices/MaxProfileSize = 4194304
[2020-12-21 15:14:59.603] [info] GameServices/ScreenshotBuffer = 1048576
[2020-12-21 15:14:59.603] [info] GameServices/MaxSaveSizeTotal = 12582912
Click to expand...
Thanks for checking that. I have another idea which could be tried. There are other ini files and other locations where these ini files are saved in the game's directory (and in AppData). We could check if these flags already exist there and/or adjust/add them to those ini files.
Maybe one directory takes precedence over the other?
 
Shiny_Dragapult

Shiny_Dragapult

Fresh user
#518
Dec 21, 2020
I am fully confident that very soon the community will launch a fix for this issue, i'm putting my chips on you guys not on CDPR, thought it would validate them more to fix this, I just don't see this issue having a time of it's own to be fixed in 1 or 2 months from now. The sooner the better.
 
rhettofbodom

rhettofbodom

Rookie
#519
Dec 21, 2020
So CDPR is telling us to not use the crafting system, or loot too much, or do too much of the content in their gigantic open world RPG? What the hell did they intend for people to do? Why is there even a crafting system at all if its going to break my game? This is pathetic.
 
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Ianto1

Ianto1

Fresh user
#520
Dec 21, 2020
rhettofbodom said:
So CDPR is telling us to not use the crafting system, or loot too much, or do too much of the content in their gigantic open world RPG? What the hell did they intend for people to do? Why is there even a crafting system at all if its going to break my game? This is pathetic.
Click to expand...
A forum mod (not a dev) suggested that this would be the best course of action until the issue can be resolved.
 
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