Scenario's, heatwave, echo cards and devotion should be top priority next patch

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As the title says lots of work to do to improve gameplay next patch.
This meta is overwhelmed with netdecks, toxic card abilities and above all it's too predictable

No fun allowed :(

First problem is the balance between scenario's amongst factions they variate between 12-15 provisions which seems unfair.
Draw a line for every scenario set them all to 15 provisions and balance from this point.
Second problem is the tempo of a scenario in 3 turns it generates so many points which makes it hard to keep up and develop a fair round.
I'd like to see a cooldown of 2 for each chapter and reduce this by 1 if you play a unit of a certain category.

Heatwave is the only card that can remove a scenario and thats the main reason why it's so popular.
Banish the ability of this card and change it to something else this card alone is the bane of many decks.
It's very frustrating to see this card in every single match at higher ranks/pro rank.

Next thing are echo cards actually it's the same problem as scenario's there is a large variation in provision costs and point output.
NR has the best echo card followed by SK because all of them have no condition or a simple one to offset max. value.
Oneiromancy is also pretty good especially in a control heavy deck or if you play another echo card.
First of all a deck should only contain the maximum of 1 echo card top deck the 2 best cards in the next round is pretty insane.
Secondly the conditions for the NR and SK should be further reduced/limited..
The NR echo card for example could be limited to a category like bronze soldiers or machines and perhahs should boost less.
SK echo deathblow should be limited to draw a 10 or 9 provision warrior at most.
And lastly oneiromancy should have slight increase in provisions to 14.

Last topic is devotion and again the same problem as with the previous issues: large variation in value, provisioning etc. etc.
Take the Wild Hunt for example which theme is frost and dominance: none of the WH cards can realistically achieve dominance.
You either have to hope your opponent doesn't play tall units or you'll have to put non synergistic cards in your deck like consumes, ogroids or insectoids.
The 4 provision cost WH units are amongst the worst such a waste of a great archetype :(
WH definitively needs massive buffs I have made a list with suggestions:

-4p warrior. damage a unit by 1 when frost is on board damage by 3 deathblow boost by 1
-4p navigator. boost a unit by 2 devotion: if it's a WH unit boost by 4
-5p crew. change to 2 power
- 5p hound. change power to 4
-8p Nithral. change to 6 power deploy damage a unit by 2 cooldown 1: damage a unit by 1 if you have dominance 2
-9p Caranthir. move a unit to another row and apply frost for 2 turns (Eredin's current ability)
-9p Imlerith. change power to 6. deploy damage a unit by 3 if the enemy unit is under frost duel instead
- 10p Eredin. change power to 10 deploy, gain veil, dominance deal +1 frost damage, If the opposite row is under frost boost by 1 each turn -> provision change to 13

Ice troll and ice giant could be interesting for some kind of frost/ogroid archetype as well.
6p Icegiant: If frost is on board boost by 2
5p Ice troll: if frost is on board lock a enemy unit
 
WH definitively needs massive buffs I have made a list with suggestions:

-4p warrior. damage a unit by 1 when frost is on board damage by 3 deathblow boost by 1
-4p navigator. boost a unit by 2 devotion: if it's a WH unit boost by 4
-5p crew. change to 2 power
- 5p hound. change power to 4
-8p Nithral. change to 6 power deploy damage a unit by 2 cooldown 1: damage a unit by 1 if you have dominance 2
-9p Caranthir. move a unit to another row and apply frost for 2 turns (Eredin's current ability)
-9p Imlerith. change power to 6. deploy damage a unit by 3 if the enemy unit is under frost duel instead
- 10p Eredin. change power to 10 deploy, gain veil, dominance deal +1 frost damage, If the opposite row is under frost boost by 1 each turn -> provision change to 13
None of those should be implemented, with the possible exception of increasing Hound's power to 4. It sounds like your goal is make the Wild Hunt archetype as broken or even more so than the top meta decks, when it would be far more beneficial to rein in Shieldwall, Overwhelming Hunger, Nature's Gift, etc.

Also, while the Echo mechanic was a giant mistake, I don't see them changing anything else at this point. Although, I hope that they do feel the need to address Scenarios. "Korathi Heatwave" is actually fine as is, but if Scenarios were all properly balanced, then I guess they could increase its provision cost by a point.
 
You went a bit overboard OP, especially with Nithral and Eredin.

Nithral already has 8p "equivalents" in other factions like Black Rayla, Pavko Gale, Phillipe Van Moorlehem and Sigvald. Everyone of them has the same mechanic, damage by 1, unless a condition is met, then damage by 2. And everyone of them, like current Nithral, can be removed by 5 damage spells (except for Sigvald, but I'm counting him anyway, since he has to be at 4 power for his 2 damage to trigger). So giving Nithral an additional deploy ability as well as putting him out of range for most removals would truly be too much. He would have to be an 11 or 12 provision card and would probably still be an auto-include.

Eredin is just insane. You double his power, give him veil AND the ability to boost himself every turn with frost in addition to his current ability? All this with just a 3 provision point increase? There are 20+ provision points worth of abilities and power in that one card that basically guarantees dominance.

For the other ones, I don't know how likely it is for them to re-use abilities on units that they already removed once, like the proposed Caranthir one and Imlerith's as well, though with a different damage number.

And as a side note, it's really not that hard to achieve dominance with a Wild Hunt deck. Just add a few boosts. No need to add units that don't synergize, when you can boost and protect the ones that do.
 

bTrait

Forum regular
Fixing few cards wont fix the game. The biggest problem is this:
- you do draw golds, you win;
- you don't, you lose.
It means the differences between strongest and weakest cards are to big and Im not the first 1 saying that.

Wild Hunt is strong, no the top tier but strong enough.

Devs will never balance this game. It's all about trinkets, leader skins, cardbacks etc
What is more profitable, patch or another journey?
 
[...]
Heatwave is the only card that can remove a scenario and thats the main reason why it's so popular.
[...]
You are joking, right ?
Heatwave is just a good card, being a variable answer to many things and it is non-brickable tall-punish and an engine answer, which is not even dead against no-unit decks.
With the buff of it going to 10 quite some time ago the card has been around, even when Heaver was around.
Heatwave is one of the upsides of going for non-devotion decks, like Oneiromancy and thus gives an incentive to non-devotion decks, the card is perfectly fine.
Scenarios are a lot more acceptable than before (when Heaver existed), given that their position is a lot less binary.
Most Scenarios are not even part of the meta and the ones that are put their decks on a similar level to the non-Scenario decks of that faction.

[...]
Next thing are echo cards actually it's the same problem as scenario's there is a large variation in provision costs and point output.
NR has the best echo card followed by SK because all of them have no condition or a simple one to offset max. value.
Oneiromancy is also pretty good especially in a control heavy deck or if you play another echo card.
First of all a deck should only contain the maximum of 1 echo card top deck the 2 best cards in the next round is pretty insane.
Secondly the conditions for the NR and SK should be further reduced/limited..
The NR echo card for example could be limited to a category like bronze soldiers or machines and perhahs should boost less.
SK echo deathblow should be limited to draw a 10 or 9 provision warrior at most.
And lastly oneiromancy should have slight increase in provisions to 14.
[...]
I disagree.
The value from Echo cards does not come from their point output, but the fact that they are reusable and thus give a form of carryover, however only the consistent ones are actually that good (see the NG Echo or ST Echo for ok'ish Echos).
Echos are in my opinion currently not a major balancing issue.
The reason Shieldwall is busted is not due to AA, it is because the leader ability enables ridiculous Anseis, Viraxas and Seltkirk plays, while making even fragile engines like Vysagota pseudo-invulnerable and a round in which Vysagota sticks the Shieldwall player usually auto-wins.

[...]
Last topic is devotion and again the same problem as with the previous issues: large variation in value, provisioning etc. etc.
Take the Wild Hunt for example which theme is frost and dominance: none of the WH cards can realistically achieve dominance.
You either have to hope your opponent doesn't play tall units or you'll have to put non synergistic cards in your deck like consumes, ogroids or insectoids.
[...]
You are not really suggesting that MO only rarely achieve Dominance, are you ?

[...]
The 4 provision cost WH units are amongst the worst such a waste of a great archetype :(
WH definitively needs massive buffs I have made a list with suggestions:

-4p warrior. damage a unit by 1 when frost is on board damage by 3 deathblow boost by 1
-4p navigator. boost a unit by 2 devotion: if it's a WH unit boost by 4
-5p crew. change to 2 power
- 5p hound. change power to 4
[...]
How are the 4 provision cards WH has among the worst ?
WH has Conqueror.
I agree that Warrior and Navigator, as well as Crew and Hound should be buffed though.
If you remove the Deathblow from WH Warrior I would actually say that this is a rework I would really like.
WH Navigator would then be a non-devotion Kerack Marine ... both numbers should be reduced by 1 on the boost and the rework would make the card actually playable.
The Crew change would maybe go too far, considering that at the end of the day Crew is already a 7 for 5 engine on its own, however I would say that it could get 1 more armor.
The Hound change would be in line with already existing cards.

[...]
-8p Nithral. change to 6 power deploy damage a unit by 2 cooldown 1: damage a unit by 1 if you have dominance 2
-9p Caranthir. move a unit to another row and apply frost for 2 turns (Eredin's current ability)
-9p Imlerith. change power to 6. deploy damage a unit by 3 if the enemy unit is under frost duel instead
- 10p Eredin. change power to 10 deploy, gain veil, dominance deal +1 frost damage, If the opposite row is under frost boost by 1 each turn -> provision change to 13

Ice troll and ice giant could be interesting for some kind of frost/ogroid archetype as well.
6p Icegiant: If frost is on board boost by 2
5p Ice troll: if frost is on board lock a enemy unit
The Nithral change would put it ahead of similar cards in other factions and in general would make it really overpowered, given that it would be a difficult to remove engine, which immediately plays as an 8 for 8 and potentially 2 more per turn, no way.

Caranthir would then cease having the unique and actually lore-friendly ability he currently has and be a meh version of the leader ability White Frost.
The Imlerith change would actually be cool and give him something more fitting than his currently ability (which I honestly would not miss).
Eredin would be, as mentioned above in detail, ridiculously overpowered and I think I do not need to go into detail (as someone already did that).
 
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ya1

Forum regular
OP complains about some conditions being too easy and then proposes WH card designs whose condition would be frost on board. Frost on board is no condition at all. These designs are veryy op.

Heatwave is not a problem in Gwent. It's just a symptom. High end power creep is the problem. Cards are too strong. If so many cards single-handedly win games if unremoved, then ofc universal removal is a must.

Scenarios are ridiculously overvalued but the solution in op is not good. Actually, it's also one of the biggest balancing errors CDPR has been making (in fact that's just about the only type of balancing they've been doing lately). Raising provisions of broken cards does not make them any less broken. It only forces players to pack more mulligan fodder which polarizes the game even more and makes it even more draw dependent.
 
High end power creep is the problem. Cards are too strong. If so many cards single-handedly win games if unremoved, then ofc universal removal is a must.

Raising provisions of broken cards does not make them any less broken. It only forces players to pack more mulligan fodder which polarizes the game even more and makes it even more draw dependent.

Could a potential solution be to have a gold card cap per deck? Likely this would mean that a separation between 800 p and 200 p cards into gold and silver would be necessary to balance it out, but nonetheless, that might help curb the problem with rampant gold card dependancy for wins and actually centre the win condition on strategy that doesn't revolve around having gold fever.
 
I agree scenarios are ridiculous and WH needs a rework... Since there is noway to counter Frost they should be nerfed to the ground for being to annoying :rolleyes:
 
Scenarios are overpowered as they produce too many points with one card. Why not lower their impact and their provision to 10-12.

Plus, I only found 3 artefact removals. In the first two cases you lose more points.

Shoop
Heatwave
Line of credit (Syndicate)

Since they are nearly untouchable I see more and more players using scenarios. :(
 
They just need to build a counter against those cards to make them more even or raise the provisions. You shouldn't have multiple cards in your deck that can remove 20+ points without being able to counter it. One side holds multiples of those cards and you're 40+ points over them, the game is over. There's no other cards that give that many points in one turn (I don't think), so there's no way to counter them since you can't stop them being played and you can't counter play them afterwards. I'm not talking about scenario cards that take multiple turns. Just limit the amount of provisions someone can hold in their hand. Last round I just played, I average up the provisions and this guy had a 9.7 provision average out of 10 cards (97 total), while my hand average is around 83 (I've only averaged 3 hands so far though).

While we are at it, make charges have a limit (like almost every other ability). They shouldn't be able to abuse the system and have 6+ charges on multiple cards. Should also fix the duel ability so the powers actually go back and forth like it states, instead of just destroying the other card when they have a shield (the shield should only absorb the first hit). (This guy just had 10 charges on a battering ram that does +3 damage to the highest enemy, that's 30 damage in one turn from a bronze card).

I agree with OP though, it doesn't seem like the monster faction synergizes as well as the other factions. Other factions seem to get more "rolling/building" utility and abilities with their units.

Banish the cards used from the graveyard, you shouldn't be able to call the same card multiple times from the graveyard. (I just had this guy use the same 5 damage ability card 3 times from the graveyard) I can live with this as I don't see it abused yet.

I also think the monster cards should be reworked to "play" cards to activate deploy abilities instead of "spawn", like every other faction when they take and play a monster faction card.
 
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Honestly my suggestion would be to change Shieldwall to have 1 additional provision, boost by 1 more point and have 1 charge less.
 
Anseis + Shieldwall is basically giving you an instant extra Heatwave (in addition to the points Anseis and boost giveth you), just no banish and can't target artifacts. And you can repeat it with the bullshit Veraxis card that also has "formation".
 
To the people who contributed to the subject thank you for adding feedback.
To the people that didn't well you wasted your time :)

You went a bit overboard OP, especially with Nithral and Eredin.

Nithral already has 8p "equivalents" in other factions like Black Rayla, Pavko Gale, Phillipe Van Moorlehem and Sigvald. Everyone of them has the same mechanic, damage by 1, unless a condition is met, then damage by 2. And everyone of them, like current Nithral, can be removed by 5 damage spells (except for Sigvald, but I'm counting him anyway, since he has to be at 4 power for his 2 damage to trigger). So giving Nithral an additional deploy ability as well as putting him out of range for most removals would truly be too much. He would have to be an 11 or 12 provision card and would probably still be an auto-include.

Buff them all, these 5 point engines all get removed by much cheaper bronze 5 provision cards.
With such an tradeoff it ain't worth it to put them in a deck.

Eredin is just insane. You double his power, give him veil AND the ability to boost himself every turn with frost in addition to his current ability? All this with just a 3 provision point increase? There are 20+ provision points worth of abilities and power in that one card that basically guarantees dominance.

Nope without spawning frost, OK 10 basestrength is perhaps a bit high starting point let's say 8 and add devotion to trigger the engine capability.
The card as it is now is pathetic it's the main protagonist in the Witcher series this should be damn good card.
In my opinion it should be something with dominance.

For the other ones, I don't know how likely it is for them to re-use abilities on units that they already removed once, like the proposed Caranthir one and Imlerith's as well, though with a different damage number.

Actually both are based on the beta abilities Imlerith is based on the beta Ice troll ability while Caranthir is the same (aside of frost only lasts 2 turns).
Why reinvent the wheel if you already had such interesting abilities?

And as a side note, it's really not that hard to achieve dominance with a Wild Hunt deck. Just add a few boosts. No need to add units that don't synergize, when you can boost and protect the ones that do.

Problems you play into: heatwave, defender, the large amount of removal cards, NR having answers to everything, huge tempo plays with scenario's.
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You are joking, right ?
Heatwave is just a good card, being a variable answer to many things and it is non-brickable tall-punish and an engine answer, which is not even dead against no-unit decks.
With the buff of it going to 10 quite some time ago the card has been around, even when Heaver was around.
Heatwave is one of the upsides of going for non-devotion decks, like Oneiromancy and thus gives an incentive to non-devotion decks, the card is perfectly fine.
Scenarios are a lot more acceptable than before (when Heaver existed), given that their position is a lot less binary.
Most Scenarios are not even part of the meta and the ones that are put their decks on a similar level to the non-Scenario decks of that faction.

See me smiling I'm dead serious :)
No heatwave is broken as f**k let's add Geralt of Rivia in the discussion.
10p card that does remove a card taller then 9 strength.
2 conditions: it can remove a unit and only with 9+ strength otherwise it will be only 3 points.
Heatwave has waaaay more reach it can banish anything: scenario, tall unit, defender, artifect.

I disagree.
The value from Echo cards does not come from their point output, but the fact that they are reusable and thus give a form of carryover, however only the consistent ones are actually that good (see the NG Echo, ST Echo or SY Echo for ok'ish Echos).
Echos are in my opinion currently not a major balancing issue.
The reason Shieldwall is busted is not due to AA, it is because the leader ability enables ridiculous Anseis, Viraxas and Seltkirk plays, while making even fragile engines like Vysagota pseudo-invulnerable and a round in which Vysagota sticks the Shieldwall player usually auto-wins.

The NR echo puts their bronzes/golds out of most removal zone most of NR engines are 2 points per turn.
On top of that the golds are also extremely good basically capable of answering everything.
It's by far the most overtuned faction atm.

You are not really suggesting that MO only rarely achieve Dominance, are you ?

No it just doesn't suite the WH theme in the way you have to achieve it now.
Wild hunt has no tall units like described you'll need to add consumes, ogroids etc to your deck
WH engines are bad the problem lies in those auto include double thrive units which are underprovisioned.

How are the 4 provision cards WH has among the worst ?
WH has Conqueror. I agree that Warrior and Navigator, as well as Crew and Hound should be buffed though.
If you remove the Deathblow from WH Warrior I would actually say that this is a rework I would really like.
WH Navigator would then be a non-devotion Kerack Marine ... both numbers should be reduced by 1 on the boost and the rework would make the card actually playable.

Exactly thats the problem Conqueror is the only good one.
The rest is just bad.

The Crew change would maybe go too far, considering that at the end of the day Crew is already a 7 for 5 engine on its own, however I would say that it could get 1 more armor. The Hound change would be in line with already existing cards.

Yes you're right about crew it's fine as it is.
Hound though is useless as it is now.

The Nithral change would put it ahead of similar cards in other factions and in general would make it really overpowered, given that it would be a difficult to remove engine, which immediately plays as an 8 for 8 and potentially 2 more per turn, no way.
Caranthir would then cease having the unique and actually lore-friendly ability he currently has and be a meh version of the leader ability White Frost.
The Imlerith change would actually be cool and give him something more fitting than his currently ability (which I honestly would not miss).
Eredin would be, as mentioned above in detail, ridiculously overpowered and I think I do not need to go into detail (as someone already did that).

Check message #16
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Buff them all, these 5 point engines all get removed by much cheaper bronze 5 provision cards.
With such an tradeoff it ain't worth it to put them in a deck.

That's actually something I would agree with. My problem was with Nithral getting improved over his equivalents. Even just boosting them to 6 power would do a lot, since it would take them out of range of most bronze removals. But instead of the proposed deploy ability, you could just give them zeal. With a 1-2 point provision increase, considering other cards in that range.

Nope without spawning frost, OK 10 basestrength is perhaps a bit high starting point let's say 8 and add devotion to trigger the engine capability.
The card as it is now is pathetic it's the main protagonist in the Wither series this should be damn good card.
In my opinion it should be something with dominance.

That sounds more reasonable.

Actually both are based on the beta abilities Imlerith is based on the beta Ice troll ability while Caranthir is the same (aside of frost only lasts 2 turns).
Why reinvent the wheel if you already had such interesting abilities?

Didn't say it was bad just probably unlikely.

Problems you play into: heatwave, defender, the large amount of removal cards, NR having answers to everything, huge tempo plays with scenario's. .

I don't see how defender plays into this.

Otherwise yes. That's kind of the point in a balanced game. Everything should have a counter. Though there is an inherent disadvantage in the "dominance" mechanic since it relies on having a big target which is usually not a good thing to have and it can easily backfire, especially if you use other cards solely to build one unit up. And while I don't usually find it hard to achieve dominance with a Wild Hunt deck, it is not against any meta decks. Consume decks are far better suited for this since building units up and replacing them is fairly easy and can be done with just units alone that synergize well. Wild hunt not so much. They could rework some of the units or they just create a different thing for them. Like having their abilities trigger if there is frost on the board instead of having the biggest unit.
 
Disagree. You shouldn't have cards that threaten 20+ points. They force the opponent into the binary situation: remove them or lose.
Actually, I agree with you both — there should neither exist 20+ point cards that are remove or lose, nor should there exist instant, destroy anything without a trace cards.
 
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