Scoia'tael bronze cards desperately need a buff

[plastiq33]

Id really like to see vernossiels commando change now that it is spawned by feign death, it is really easy to brick and vernossiel is usually your last play so the condition is not great. Maybe the condition can be ignored if you control 5 elves or something? That way if your feign death goes to completion it will still tick no matter what you play.

 

[Madlax1992]

The ST Elf bronze package need some serious buffs as you have extremely limited choices to pick among them. To be more competitive, you are forced to choose Dwarves for decent power/provision ratio, but that pretty much ruins the Elf archetype, it cripples your Commando for example.

ST Dwarves are decent. Although even they could use some additions or reworks here and there on select bronze and gold cards. ST Dryads are great in Symbiosis only. Those commonly used in Harmony for Poison would need some buffs.

The whole Harmony archetype needs to be reworked. A user gave an interesting way of improving Harmony by removing its limitation to ST cards only, allowing neutral cards with unique primary categories to trigger it too.

 

[rrc]

Bronze Elves are GOD AWFUL. Here Bushy trying Elves and losing in both games. We can tell about coin, draw rng etc. But the fact is Bronze Elves suck the most in the game.

Same video on a different time:

This is the first time I am seeing bushy's video in which he lost both the games he tried.
Just. God. Awful. Bronzes.

 

[Celadyl]

Bronze Elves are GOD AWFUL.
...
Just. God. Awful. Bronzes.

that's the point of this thread
elves are especially screwed since their best cards are suuper expensive, scenario 14, vernossiel 12, oak 13, possibly oneiro to not miss the scenario. so you actually have to play a lot of low provision cards which are mostly terrible.
I find the new vrihedd officer buff just laughable.

 

[Barracuda88]

Bronze Elves are GOD AWFUL. Here Bushy trying Elves and losing in both games. We can tell about coin, draw rng etc. But the fact is Bronze Elves suck the most in the game.

Just. God. Awful. Bronzes.

It's true, but you generally don't want too many bronze elves in an elf deck, anyway, because you don't want Aelirenn to pop in round 1. I've been playing the Sym Elf deck since MM, with oakcritters, dryads and dwarfs with rebukes and caresses and whatnot for the bronze package. Unfortunately, the addition of Nature's Gift powercrept that deck pretty hard. I never liked the poison package with the elves (cheese), and pure dwarves for R1 aren't really gonna work without the Forge. So I'm not real sure what to do now, except not play elves.

The scenario is actually worse after the last patch. 14 provisions is really not warranted, because the "engine" you put on the board is still the worst card created out of all scenarios and could be argued the commando is actually worse than a dead eye it's so bad, lol. At the very least, the commando should start with 4 power instead of 3. I mean, this card is just silly.

 

[Madlax1992]

It's true, but you generally don't want too many bronze elves in an elf deck, anyway, because you don't want Aelirenn to pop in round 1. I've been playing the Sym Elf deck since MM, with oakcritters, dryads and dwarfs with rebukes and caresses and whatnot for the bronze package. Unfortunately, the addition of Nature's Gift powercrept that deck pretty hard. I never liked the poison package with the elves (cheese), and pure dwarves for R1 aren't really gonna work without the Forge. So I'm not real sure what to do now, except not play elves.

The scenario is actually worse after the last patch. 14 provisions is really not warranted, because the "engine" you put on the board is still the worst card created out of all scenarios and could be argued the commando is actually worse than a dead eye it's so bad, lol. At the very least, the commando should start with 4 power instead of 3. I mean, this card is just silly.

That's right, but still, bronze elves are useless for the most part. Bushr had to add mostly dwarfs as bronze cards because of this. Which are the exception? The bowman who costs 4 for 6 at most and the bomber, who costs 4 for 6 again. These are the only 2 bronze elves which almost certainly provide more than their provision cost. The other one being Blue Mountain Elite, but getting 6 points out of it is even more conditional than the other 2. They need some buffs and some of the bronze elf units need an overhaul.

At the same time, the gold cards are too expensive and as such, underwhelming. Milaen for example. A 9 provision card that plays for 8 points. Useless. Toruviel, 8 provisions for 9 points in most situations, unless the opponent swarms his rows with units. Milva could use a power buff. Eleyas plays for 11 in the best case scenario and is a 9 provision card. Decent, but could use a buff too. Vernossiel should get its provision cost lowered by 1 or 2 points. Ithlinne Aegli, while she got a slight buff, is still not good enough. 9 points for 10 provision is not worth it. Even Aglais decks don't make use of her despite the fact that she provides 4 points boost to a unit in your hand.

I said when the patch was announced that Feign Death has not been buffed, but nerfed twice. Aside the increase in provision, which was totally unwarranted like for Ball, the Commando is not bad, but should be changed to boost by 1 if all the units you play are ST units, not Elves only. He gets bricked too easily because the Elf card package is so underwhelming, that you are forced to include quite a number of non-Elf units. Not only that, but the current meta loves tall removal, so he is easy pray.

As things stand now, Dwarves and Dryads are the best ST cards, both bronzes and golds.

 

[Barracuda88]

No argument on bronze elves, but I do disagree about the golds. Dwarf legendaries are terrible. Vernossiel is miles better than stuff like Zoltan Warrior and Munro. Don't think it needs a provision boost, either. Eleyas is an awesome card. Isengrim and Yaevinn are awesome cards. Aelirenn is a great card, and so is Toruviel. Milaen needs to be at least a 5-body card. It's been powercrept. Schirru is an absolute beast, and he's an elf, though you can't use him in an elf deck. Ithlinne I've used in every handbuff deck I ever made, and she's been made better. Of course, you have to pair her with Skaggs or Aglais to get value.

 

[wonderboy870]

I made the point before and I feel it needs to be made again. Elves are not in a vacuum. Any buff to bronze elves translates to the rest of the faction. I am not saying it cannot or should not be done. I am saying it must be done very carefully and with eye toward balance. If elves start out playing dwarves then you kill what little play dwarven forge gets and see a major shift in how harmony approaches elves.

 

[Madlax1992]

No argument on bronze elves, but I do disagree about the golds. Dwarf legendaries are terrible. Vernossiel is miles better than stuff like Zoltan Warrior and Munro. Don't think it needs a provision boost, either. Eleyas is an awesome card. Isengrim and Yaevinn are awesome cards. Aelirenn is a great card, and so is Toruviel. Milaen needs to be at least a 5-body card. It's been powercrept. Schirru is an absolute beast, and he's an elf, though you can't use him in an elf deck. Ithlinne I've used in every handbuff deck I ever made, and she's been made better. Of course, you have to pair her with Skaggs or Aglais to get value.

Zoltan Warrior in conjunction with Munro is a powerhouse combo that needs relatively little planning. Transforming the Rowdy Dwarves into Berserkers plays for many points in a short round. Add Figgis for defending, 1 tempering + leader and you're giving more decks hell.

On the other hand, Vernossiel is good but only on a long round and the amount of points you get out of here depends on how many Deadeyes are alive by the time you deploy her.

I have played against quite a few Skaggs and Aglais decks but I've never seen any using Ithlinne. This is probably due to the rather high provision cost compared to what you get in return. 2 Dwarf Agitators in contrast, gives you 4 hand boost together, both of them combined are 8 provision and they play for more points than Ithlinne. Ithlinne needs to be boosted, or for her to provide an additional effect that warrants playing her.

Isengrim and Yaevin are the best Elf golds, followed by Eleyas, but they work only on a long round. Toruviel is not a great card. I even forgot when was the last time I encountered it during a game. It doesn't get play in any ST deck.

 

[Barracuda88]

Zoltan Warrior in conjunction with Munro is a powerhouse combo that needs relatively little planning. Transforming the Rowdy Dwarves into Berserkers plays for many points in a short round. Add Figgis for defending, 1 tempering + leader and you're giving more decks hell.

On the other hand, Vernossiel is good but only on a long round and the amount of points you get out of here depends on how many Deadeyes are alive by the time you deploy her.

I have played against quite a few Skaggs and Aglais decks but I've never seen any using Ithlinne. This is probably due to the rather high provision cost compared to what you get in return. 2 Dwarf Agitators in contrast, gives you 4 hand boost together, both of them combined are 8 provision and they play for more points than Ithlinne. Ithlinne needs to be boosted, or for her to provide an additional effect that warrants playing her.

Isengrim and Yaevin are the best Elf golds, followed by Eleyas, but they work only on a long round. Toruviel is not a great card. I even forgot when was the last time I encountered it during a game. It doesn't get play in any ST deck.

Zoltan is 10 for 12, which provides 3 dwarf bodies for row synergy and possible fodder for Munro. If you're playing him with Munro, you are not boosting the rowdies with him, because if you are, you're losing points. Munro is a 6 body 12p card that will brick if there are no rowdy dwarves (which are 2-body and very easily removed) on the board or will play for SLOW 16 over the course of 4 turns and under perfect conditions (meaning you have at least 4 more turns and the opponent has no armor on the board.)

Vern, on the other hand, is 11 for 12 and 3 elf bodies (and deadeyes are better bodies than rowdies, for obvious reasons) for isengrim and yaevinn, OR, with Feign Death, provided it sticks, and leader charges ALONE, will hit for 17 (12 removal) immediately, and if you manage to have Eleyas and/or Half-elves on the board, that number goes up another 6.

Ithlinne was expensive at 11, but a lot more reasonable at 10. When it "bricks" it plays for 9, when it hits, it play for 13. That's value.

Toruviel is easy 9 for 8 and in this meta it's not that hard to hit her ceiling of 14. That's value. I'm starting to wonder how much ST you actually play to make a categorical - and wrong - statement like "It doesn't get play in any ST deck." You know who doesn't see play? Munro.

 

[Madlax1992]

Zoltan is 10 for 12, which provides 3 dwarf bodies for row synergy and possible fodder for Munro. If you're playing him with Munro, you are not boosting the rowdies with him, because if you are, you're losing points. Munro is a 6 body 12p card that will brick if there are no rowdy dwarves (which are 2-body and very easily removed) on the board or will play for SLOW 16 over the course of 4 turns and under perfect conditions (meaning you have at least 4 more turns and the opponent has no armor on the board.)

Vern, on the other hand, is 11 for 12 and 3 elf bodies (and deadeyes are better bodies than rowdies, for obvious reasons) for isengrim and yaevinn, OR, with Feign Death, provided it sticks, and leader charges ALONE, will hit for 17 (12 removal) immediately, and if you manage to have Eleyas and/or Half-elves on the board, that number goes up another 6.

Ithlinne was expensive at 11, but a lot more reasonable at 10. When it "bricks" it plays for 9, when it hits, it play for 13. That's value.

Toruviel is easy 9 for 8 and in this meta it's not that hard to hit her ceiling of 14. That's value. I'm starting to wonder how much ST you actually play to make a categorical - and wrong - statement like "It doesn't get play in any ST deck." You know who doesn't see play? Munro.

Even if that is the case, if you play Defender first, then you ensure the survival of your Rowdy Dwarves. After that Zoltan: Warrior and Munro and you have a powerhouse there. This combination brought me many wins before they introduced a patch to make Symbiosis actually work. Before that, Dwarves were the most consistent. I rarely played though Defender to protect Rowdy Dwarves though.

Same as with the Dwarves, you need a lot of setup to actually get value from Venossiel. I still don't see Aglais and Skags decks featuring Ithlinne even though I played quite a few games recently against such decks. Toruviel much less. In fact I am struggling to remember when was the last time I played against an opponent that used Toruviel.

Munro actually does get quite a few plays, a hell of a lot more plays that Ithlinne and Toruviel that is for sure. It is enough if you look at trending decks related to leader Mahakam Forge. You will find him in quite a few lists. And aside meme decks, he is quite a staple in Dwarf decks. In addition to these cards being placed on the same row to get full value of them, you also ensure stacking up for a Barclay and/or for Guards.

 

[Celadyl]

the iron judgement dwarf trio is overpriced and too situational. both vernossiel and toruviel are superb cards. people play the dwarf package because it has overpowered stuff like justice into volunteers but dwarf golds are pretty lackluster for the most part imo. elf golds are for the most part really good and carry the entire archetype bc most bronze elves are trash. honestly I cannot remember the last time I saw a pure dwarf deck, must be before master mirror, so idk where you are seeing munro being played

 

[plastiq33]

I gotta say after messing with elves recently I think I see why the bronze elves are bad - they are just bodies to add to the elf swarm for payoff cards like yaevin, aeliren, isengrim etc. which are amazing golds that can carry a game. The issue is just that the archetype isn't as broken as warrior skellige which has both amazing golds and amazing bronzes. I could see buffing some of the low range elfs tipping the faction into broken territory, I can see why they are making minor tweaks to a few cards at a time and seeing how far the power creeps.

 

[Celadyl]

I gotta say after messing with elves recently I think I see why the bronze elves are bad - they are just bodies to add to the elf swarm for payoff cards like yaevin, aeliren, isengrim etc. which are amazing golds that can carry a game. The issue is just that the archetype isn't as broken as warrior skellige which has both amazing golds and amazing bronzes. I could see buffing some of the low range elfs tipping the faction into broken territory, I can see why they are making minor tweaks to a few cards at a time and seeing how far the power creeps.

yaevin isengrim aeliren and vernossiel are indeed amazing but they are a certain package. its almost impossible to really "swarm" the board two rounds, let alone thee rounds. so what are you playing to win the first round? thats why people play the dwarf package or even symbiosis, bc the bronze elves arent able to win anything. imo buffing the low end elves and maybe tweaking the pay off cards to not be super OP would feel much much better for the archetype than this - play only trash and win bc of 3 cards kind of play.

 

[LouisLaLoupe]

Bronze Elf cards are terrible and are in a much worse place than NG bronzes were. Cat Witcher, however, amazing