Scoia'Tael OP: Specials

[-Arkane]

My dude wtf are you on? If you don't draw the right card, your chances of winning decrease greatly. Its common sense that if you don't draw the correct cards you need for your strategy you'll lose, duh. Have you ever played anything besides weather spamming? This spell ST deck doesn't even requires that much precise or perfect mulligan, since your running nothing but weather spam smfh. Trying playing monster with their musters or NG with their deck thinnings and see if you can get perfect mulligan all the time.

Mate, I'm sorry you don't believe a stranger over the internet, whether you believe it or not, I don't mind. Once again, I used it and got 5 win streak from the brain dead spam. I have gone up against it A LOT and gotten about 50% WR on this deck. This is the only deck that my deck has a 50% WR against due to the weather abuse. Of course I know the ladder decks, just go on Gwent DB and I can see what brainless players are stealing, instead of creating their own deck. Yet you are relying on "BS", weather snowball mechanic is way too high. There is a reason why so many player are running RNR for example. More like your playing abusive-brainless-weather-spam because you can't create your own deck and have to follow the mass.

.............................yet this deck has 3 units? Where are your other soldiers? Weather isn't part of an army................................ Actually, people are complaining about RNR the most because it is the most powerful in terms of "situational". But the other weathers are pretty over the top too. Remember back when someone like CoC can snowball 2 points per turn and player had to lock or kill it before it grows too big? Well don't worry about that now, just use a fog and that thing will never grow (yes I know its base STR, but that's useless if it costs you a round and player milks you, or steal its from you). Of course why would a deck that centers around a pile of weather cards waste GOLD slots for more weather? Common sense, of course you wouldn't use RNR or DR.

25+ silver card on final round is pretty big like Tibor and Hjalmar, also didn't give CA. Yes Grave hag has been an overrated card in CB, but unlike most players in this game, I don't follow the mass or steal decks from Gwent DB. I always make my own deck and rank successfully with it.

You keep going on about "drawing the right cards" despite me telling you that you build your own deck and draw 10 cards in your opening hand with the option of mulliganing 3. What are the "right cards?".

Instead of using blanket statements like I quote; "If you don't draw the right card, your chances of winning decrease greatly. Its common sense that if you don't draw the correct cards you need for your strategy you'll lose, duh." Please eloborate because this only suggests to me that you have no idea on how to build a deck and blame anything and everything but yourself when you lose. It's the equivalent of moaning about not drawing all 5 pieces of Exodia in your opening hand and then complaining that you didn't draw the "right cards". Drawing cards is part of how card games work, we can't start the game with the exact cards we want in our opening hands this is why deckbuilding is a thing.

You seem like a casual/ low ranked player to me judging by the things you complain about. As for you suggesting me only playing "weather spam" no this would be the first "weather deck" I've played as it takes skill to play properly. I've hit rank 15 in closed beta with Radvoid control I tend to gravitate towards control decks which spell'otael is.

".............................yet this deck has 3 units? Where are your other soldiers? Weather isn't part of an army................................ Actually, people are complaining about RNR the most because it is the most powerful in terms of "situational". But the other weathers are pretty over the top too."

My response to the whole army thing was clearly a joke as you were the one to bring it up, the word kappa at the end of that should have given it away. Card games are about strategy and making optimal plays with correct predictions and hindsight. But if you want to fantasize about armies fighting each other go for it or play LOTR/D&D boardgames. I never once said weather is part of an army your reading comprehension is very poor. RNR is powerful for the reasons I gave I don't know what you mean by this: "Actually, people are complaining about RNR the most because it is the most powerful in terms of "situational". The bronze weathers are not OP but I don't personally like how the weather mechanic curently operates because of the whole agile thing but in terms of it being over the top or OP not at all. Weather as a mechanic In closed beta was OP as it used to drop the units to 1 on the row applied. Rain which is played in this deck does 2 damage to the weakest unit(s), wouldn't call that over the top.

"Of course why would a deck that centers around a pile of weather cards waste GOLD slots for more weather? Common sense, of course you wouldn't use RNR or DR."

The deck only runs 3 weather cards Aermomancy being the 4th to use one from the deck or bring one back from graveyard. You clearly havn't played the deck and understand how it operates but went up against it and couldn't spam your units without thinking.

I'm happy for you that you build your own decks so do I but it doesn't mean we can't test out other decks and see how they play to better understand how to counter them, Genrally speaking players who netdeck don't do to well with this deck as it's hard to just copy and play it. For those who were building a similiar deck in the experimentation phase of closed beta and then stumbled upon a perfected version of it tend to do better with it.

 

[Laveley]

I never considered hawker supports to be bad cards. They were outshined by extreme thinning with dash first, and melleestack dwarves later. Besides, CBT meta was extremely centered on CA powerswings. Aard, Igni, Weather. Thats without mentioning approximatly 3000 scorch decks that countered 1-2 heavy units really hard, and led to creation of "i buff ambush, you cant interact with it, iam smart" decks. Wich is kind of funny if you think about it, there was litteraly no person who actually liked dragoon+ambush precisely for how uninteractive it was. Yet we get DBP in OBT. I honestly think that making hawker supports agile and throwing some aromor their way would make them a decent core unit ATM. Ithline change alone is a huge thing for them. There very well might be a better option, but im pretty sure that "buffed in deck" is not one.

Yeah, and them we will have another adrenaline rush/resilient strategy card....

The deck actually has a high skill cap to play efficiently especially at the higher ranks. I wouldn't call it braindead, try running it yourself and see how well you do. It will get nerfed because of whiney kids but I'll enjoy it while I can.

Totally agree. Probably one of the most skill-based decks atm. I'm enjoying playing with it too. And let me tell you; i already faced more opponents which didnt know how to run this deck than ones that actually knew what they were doing.

Also, there are quite a few space to innovation. Of course, the main engine is spam weather and buff the dbp's, but you may actually switch a lot of silvers and golds and even the leader.

Enjoy while it dont get nerfhammered.

 

[Rawls]

I'm running a not quite pure version of this deck. I think it's quite fun and does require skill to make it work consistently. I hope they don't nerf it too hard. Maybe reduce the protectors to starting at 1 instead of 4.

 

[KThomas14]

This deck is completely and ridiculously overpowered. I've been playing ranked and have managed to hit rank 12 with this Skellige axemen deck. There is literally no way for me to beat this deck, and this is one of the few decks I face. If I'm lucky enough to draw Wild Boar of the Sea, it doesn't matter as I can't keep Morkvarg to the left of it since Morkvarg constantly dies and gets revived to the right. If I could keep the axemen on the field (which I can't due to them getting shelled constantly), the only units available to damage are my own. If I manage to make it to the third round, I'm always down 2 or 3 cards, and there's no way to generate enough value.

This deck needs to be nerfed as it is extremely powerful, has few (if any counters), is extremely irritating to play against, and (along with the Nilfgaard spy deck) is completely overcentralizing the meta.

Now that my rant is over, here are some constructive ideas to nerf this deck while still allowing it to be viable (although I'd personally prefer it to be nerfed to an eighth circle of hell so I never have to see it again). I think I've seen these suggested already here, but limiting the number of special cards in a deck is a good idea, as is requiring the Dol Blathanna Protector (DBP) to be on the board to receive the buff (likely the buff should be increased in this case). There is also no way these units should be agile. They need to be restricted to one row so there is at least a quick counter to them.

This particular deck might need to be nerfed more than this, but I think some combination of these would be a good start.

 

[isnadtochiev]

Yeah, and them we will have another adrenaline rush/resilient strategy card....

Enjoy while it dont get nerfhammered.

I dont get your point. Yes, you could potentially AR old supports. Did it ever work?) You can AR alot of high power units, but it simply doesnt work reliably due to dimeritium/lock/insertremoval. Besides, how is AR bad, but buffing a unit in your deck (where opponent cant interact with it) and pulling it out on last turns with FL is a "healthy interactive mechanic"?
Also, what skill exactly do you mean? Playing a leader+saskia+roach as a powerplay doesnt seem particulary challenging. DPB naturally stagger themselves as they are pulled with rally. So, where exactly does a hard decision making process step in? Not placing 3 agile units on a single row? Well now, apparently im good at this game!

 

[Mr.Win]

You keep going on about "drawing the right cards" despite me telling you that you build your own deck and draw 10 cards in your opening hand with the option of mulliganing 3. What are the "right cards?".

Instead of using blanket statements like I quote; "If you don't draw the right card, your chances of winning decrease greatly. Its common sense that if you don't draw the correct cards you need for your strategy you'll lose, duh." Please eloborate because this only suggests to me that you have no idea on how to build a deck and blame anything and everything but yourself when you lose. It's the equivalent of moaning about not drawing all 5 pieces of Exodia in your opening hand and then complaining that you didn't draw the "right cards". Drawing cards is part of how card games work, we can't start the game with the exact cards we want in our opening hands this is why deckbuilding is a thing.

You seem like a casual/ low ranked player to me judging by the things you complain about. As for you suggesting me only playing "weather spam" no this would be the first "weather deck" I've played as it takes skill to play properly. I've hit rank 15 in closed beta with Radvoid control I tend to gravitate towards control decks which spell'otael is.

".............................yet this deck has 3 units? Where are your other soldiers? Weather isn't part of an army................................ Actually, people are complaining about RNR the most because it is the most powerful in terms of "situational". But the other weathers are pretty over the top too."

My response to the whole army thing was clearly a joke as you were the one to bring it up, the word kappa at the end of that should have given it away. Card games are about strategy and making optimal plays with correct predictions and hindsight. But if you want to fantasize about armies fighting each other go for it or play LOTR/D&D boardgames. I never once said weather is part of an army your reading comprehension is very poor. RNR is powerful for the reasons I gave I don't know what you mean by this: "Actually, people are complaining about RNR the most because it is the most powerful in terms of "situational". The bronze weathers are not OP but I don't personally like how the weather mechanic curently operates because of the whole agile thing but in terms of it being over the top or OP not at all. Weather as a mechanic In closed beta was OP as it used to drop the units to 1 on the row applied. Rain which is played in this deck does 2 damage to the weakest unit(s), wouldn't call that over the top.

"Of course why would a deck that centers around a pile of weather cards waste GOLD slots for more weather? Common sense, of course you wouldn't use RNR or DR."

The deck only runs 3 weather cards Aermomancy being the 4th to use one from the deck or bring one back from graveyard. You clearly havn't played the deck and understand how it operates but went up against it and couldn't spam your units without thinking.

I'm happy for you that you build your own decks so do I but it doesn't mean we can't test out other decks and see how they play to better understand how to counter them, Genrally speaking players who netdeck don't do to well with this deck as it's hard to just copy and play it. For those who were building a similiar deck in the experimentation phase of closed beta and then stumbled upon a perfected version of it tend to do better with it.

Well, for example if I run a foglet deck with crones and roach, I'd need to be extra lucky on trying to not pull out dead musters. So for the "right cards" it'd be drawing my golds, and not too many of the muster units.

Don't over-think this my dude, its simple-plain common sense like most card games. If you don't get the right draw, you have a much higher chances of losing. What is there more to "elaborate" on? The funny thing about this is, you say I have no idea how to build a deck, YET I create and rank with only the decks I created., unlike you being brainless and having to rely on others to do the thinking for you lmao. You do know that there are other cards to help you get Exodia right? Ever heard of Sangan or WotBF? Guess not. No duh drawing cards is part of how a card game works smh.......... WELL YES "Good job stating the obvious of we can't start with the exact cards we want"!!!

Muah? A low casual/rank player creating his own deck and stealing others? Psshh yeah right. I was in slot 800's before OB hit, and YES it was my own creation.

Yeah a joke right, more like you know your wrong mate. Yes strategy and predictions, not exactly skills. Okay where exactly did I said that you stated that "weather is part of an army"? Go on point it out for me. Oh wait I didn't say it was you, it was just a little background info about the intention of what Gwent is. AS stated by the devs, suppose to be 2 armies fighting against each. Funny how you sayd I have bad reading comprehension, yet you are messing up all over the place. I need to keep pointing out all the bs your spilling. Well lets see, RNR can provide at the most 9points per turn and if opponent doesn't clear it, it becomes a winning round for the one who plays it. Even if the opponent does decide to clear it, it costs one turn of play just to negate it and the player who used it still got points off of it. That's what I meant by "situational". I thought you would know that since its obvious. I don't mind the snowball effects of weather, but at its current state it is op. For example, when a player plays a weather card against you, why the heck does it do damage as soon as your turn starts? It should do damage at the end so you can at least clear it, preventing the opponents from getting points. The only thing I hate about agile, is how most units in the game have it. Its becoming tiresome at this point. Yes weather mechanic was broken as hell in CB as the last play, but was pretty shit for a mid-game or early play since you can easily clear it or buff your units before your unit can die. This one current however, nope. You summoned all those imperial golems I see, well let me SK storm and destroy the points out of it. Now for rain, I will admit that rain isn't OP, in fact is slightly UP and needs a buff to doing 3 per turn. However, SKS, RNR, fog, drought are over the top weather cards since they can either do massive damage, and/or line up your enemies units. I know what you already going to ask, what about frost? Frost is balance in term of the snow ball it does. However, NO weather card should do damage as soon its played. All of it should do damage after the opposing player place a card. Now only that, but this game needs more weather counters in general, since weather cards outnumber Clear Weather effects by a tremendous amount.

 

[Laveley]

I dont get your point. Yes, you could potentially AR old supports. Did it ever work?) You can AR alot of high power units, but it simply doesnt work reliably due to dimeritium/lock/insertremoval. Besides, how is AR bad, but buffing a unit in your deck (where opponent cant interact with it) and pulling it out on last turns with FL is a "healthy interactive mechanic"? Also, what skill exactly do you mean? Playing a leader+saskia+roach as a powerplay doesnt seem particulary challenging. DPB naturally stagger themselves as they are pulled with rally. So, where exactly does a hard decision making process step in? Not placing 3 agile units on a single row? Well now, apparently im good at this game!

Adrenaline strategies never worked except for a brief period of time on promoted trebuchets on the start of closed beta (and wasnt even that good tbh). But now it works. If we had older support on the current metta i bet my balls that he would be another adrenaline rush play, like many others on the current beta.

As for the other points; you talk like just playing your leader will guarantee you first round and playing the 3 dbp the third. Thats not how it works. Pretty much all competitive decks has a similar power play o the first round, it may actually be a big problem to win first round with this deck. Also, the dbp's third round have tons of counter play, if your opponent is smart, he can win the game with just card advantage. Do you ever actually played the deck? Seems like you didnt or if you did, you didnt played enough. You may not like the deck mechanics, thats ok, is juts personal opinion, but definitely this deck demands a high skill cap to be played effectively.

 

[Rawls]

Post edited. The topic of the thread is this particular style deck. The topic of the thread is not the quality of other users posts or arguments. Ridiculing other players is explicitly against the rules here. You want to debate the issues, fine. You wanna personally go after someone else, not fine. Cut it out now or further actions will be taken against accounts.

 

[-Arkane]

I'm running a not quite pure version of this deck. I think it's quite fun and does require skill to make it work consistently. I hope they don't nerf it too hard. Maybe reduce the protectors to starting at 1 instead of 4.

I concur, the deck requires skill to play and more so to play it optimally, it will be sad if a small vocal minority will be the result of Spell'otael getting nerfed. I hope not because then it just sets a precedence on what/how they nerf things. Generally speaking the complaints are from low ranked/casual players with little understanding on how to counter the deck or on ordering their plays and understanding their deck's win condition and when that win condition changes through the course of the game. You can't just autopilot your deck's strategy and expect to win, every game should be different, which this deck showcases as it's a control deck at it's core.

Post edited. The topic of the thread is this particular style deck. The topic of the thread is not the quality of other users posts or arguments. Ridiculing other players is explicitly against the rules here. You want to debate the issues, fine. You wanna personally go after someone else, not fine. Cut it out now or further actions will be taken against accounts.

Lol did you edit his post? I may have missed the personal attacks but good job on moderating it. I chose to ignore the guy after the brief back and forth we had, hoepfully people can read and see the glaring irony in the posts.

 

[-Arkane]

This deck is completely and ridiculously overpowered. I've been playing ranked and have managed to hit rank 12 with this Skellige axemen deck. There is literally no way for me to beat this deck, and this is one of the few decks I face. If I'm lucky enough to draw Wild Boar of the Sea, it doesn't matter as I can't keep Morkvarg to the left of it since Morkvarg constantly dies and gets revived to the right. If I could keep the axemen on the field (which I can't due to them getting shelled constantly), the only units available to damage are my own. If I manage to make it to the third round, I'm always down 2 or 3 cards, and there's no way to generate enough value.

This deck needs to be nerfed as it is extremely powerful, has few (if any counters), is extremely irritating to play against, and (along with the Nilfgaard spy deck) is completely overcentralizing the meta.

Now that my rant is over, here are some constructive ideas to nerf this deck while still allowing it to be viable (although I'd personally prefer it to be nerfed to an eighth circle of hell so I never have to see it again). I think I've seen these suggested already here, but limiting the number of special cards in a deck is a good idea, as is requiring the Dol Blathanna Protector (DBP) to be on the board to receive the buff (likely the buff should be increased in this case). There is also no way these units should be agile. They need to be restricted to one row so there is at least a quick counter to them.

This particular deck might need to be nerfed more than this, but I think some combination of these would be a good start.

So because you can't win against Spell'otael with your SK Axeman deck you think the deck should be nerfed? Have you tried to run a different deck/build if you feel this is maybe one of you weaker matchups with that deck? Decks will always have certain bad matchups or counters it's how card games work. I can sit here and complain about SK-Morkvrarg/Wild Boar Sea being OP (which I think it is) but your argument doesn't hold if you just state you can't win against Deck A with Deck B.

As for your suggested nerfs to the deck If they do decide to nerf it limiting the number of special cards per deck does seem plausible but it would just limit deck building even more, for the longevity of the game that isn't the best of ideas. My idea if a nerf is really deemed neccassary for this deck is that DBP should only get the buffs from spells that have resolved their effects successfully on their targets. For example if I play Epidemic and it kills something then DBP would get buffed. However if I Epidemic on an empty field just because I have to play a card then DBP should not get buffed. I find this reasonable and probably the most ideal balance to the deck without killing the strategy. This however should not apply to weather as it does not have any targets it's just played on a row.

I dont get your point. Yes, you could potentially AR old supports. Did it ever work?) You can AR alot of high power units, but it simply doesnt work reliably due to dimeritium/lock/insertremoval. Besides, how is AR bad, but buffing a unit in your deck (where opponent cant interact with it) and pulling it out on last turns with FL is a "healthy interactive mechanic"?
Also, what skill exactly do you mean? Playing a leader+saskia+roach as a powerplay doesnt seem particulary challenging. DPB naturally stagger themselves as they are pulled with rally. So, where exactly does a hard decision making process step in? Not placing 3 agile units on a single row? Well now, apparently im good at this game!

Playing the Eithen+Raoch+Saskia is the only board presence the deck can muster in r1 along with a Schirru and maybe 1 DBP if you must. You're complaining about something that other builds of ST have access to aswell. Other decks even run 3 Imperial Golems. Anyways you seem to just highlight the deck's win condition and ignore everything else like micro managing your spells when to play which, to setup graveyard for Eithen, how to weather correctly baiting those Clear skies, playing Aeromancy, Toolboxing with Ithlene for what the situation demands, Schirru/Bork plays whilst ensuring you will be ahead in round 1 after all the spam that the decks can muster these days.

I've Ithlinne'd into double shackles on a tibor and Ciri Dash making that read earlier and guessing that my opponent had those two cards for the later round so my Borkh could win me the match. I had to play cards in the perfect order so not to summon and lose to my own Borkh whilst at the same time dropping him when I know my opponent is forced to use his power cards. I had many opportunities to use Ithlinne in the earlier rounds and even in the last to go double First light to bring out DBP's but chose not to because I had not seen Peter being played from my NG opponent. There are many scenarios it's hard to cram it all in and explain the intricacies of the deck without you playing it and understanding the layer of complexity it has.

 

[KThomas14]

To Arkane

My post yesterday came after facing this deck something like 5 out of 6 straight matches, so I was quite frustrated with it. I brought up the Axemen deck as axemen damage are one of about 4 core Skellige decks (the others being Morkvarg strengthen, Queensguard, and self-damage/warcry). I have tried pretty much every tweak to the Axemen deck that I can think of, and have been using them since back when they only were buffed when your own units were damaged. The ST special spam deck completely negates this entire deck core, and I don't think that is healthy for the metagame. It's not just a difficult matchup; it is a theoretically impossible matchup since there is no way for Axemen to get buffed. It is unfeasible to continue to use an Axemen deck in ranked as I will automatically lose every time I face this deck, and this deck apparently fares well enough against other deck types to be one of the two most common that I see (Nilfgaard spies being the other). There is no small tweak that can be done to an Axemen damage deck to make it competitive against this deck. I could switch to a different deck entirely, but then I'd be another person playing one of the common decks, and that gets very boring for everyone. I don't think CDPR intended to have one deck type completely negate other elaborate core mechanics.

There are also other things that I think need to be buffed or nerfed, but this is a thread on ST special spam so I was merely giving my opinion on this particular deck.

I don't think your suggested nerf would make any difference. Most other decks will usually have units on the board, so the spells would always hit something. I think the DBP either need to be agile, but only gain strength while on the board, or they need to be limited to one row. There are also several small buffs I'd like them to make to Skellige (like having Donar pull a bronze unit rather than a bronze card from the opponent's deck), but that's a topic for a different thread.

Ideally, I'd like to see a system for ranked matches that I suggested here. This would allow me to play my usual deck, but switch to an alternate if I suspect to be facing a deck like this.

 

[isnadtochiev]

Playing the Eithen+Raoch+Saskia is the only board presence the deck can muster in r1 along with a Schirru and maybe 1 DBP if you must. You're complaining about something that other builds of ST have access to aswell. Other decks even run 3 Imperial Golems. Anyways you seem to just highlight the deck's win condition and ignore everything else like micro managing your spells when to play which, to setup graveyard for Eithen, how to weather correctly baiting those Clear skies, playing Aeromancy, Toolboxing with Ithlene for what the situation demands, Schirru/Bork plays whilst ensuring you will be ahead in round 1 after all the spam that the decks can muster these days.

I've Ithlinne'd into double shackles on a tibor and Ciri Dash making that read earlier and guessing that my opponent had those two cards for the later round so my Borkh could win me the match. I had to play cards in the perfect order so not to summon and lose to my own Borkh whilst at the same time dropping him when I know my opponent is forced to use his power cards. I had many opportunities to use Ithlinne in the earlier rounds and even in the last to go double First light to bring out DBP's but chose not to because I had not seen Peter being played from my NG opponent. There are many scenarios it's hard to cram it all in and explain the intricacies of the deck without you playing it and understanding the layer of complexity it has.

Well, its not a completely proactive autopilot deck (for futher information, look melleestack dwarves). I thought ive been precise on what exactly i didnt like about this deck: its one mechanic: DBP being buffed in deck. That is precisely the one and only thing i complain about. Borkh indeed leads to some very thoughtfull turns, but he has nothing to do with this mechanic. Ithline is also a really well designed card, and again, she has nothing to do with DBP.
It is a control deck, after all, so yes, you have to manage your removal tools and your own limited power supply. And it is an enjoyable part of the game.
But your opponent (especially if hes playing control too) is left with nothing to interact. And matches end up with turns like "Weather empty row" - > "lacerate empty row" stagnating swamp. And DBPs ability to gain massive power while remaining completely invulnuravle (ok, almost, Vamp regis exists) is what allows it to be a thing. You went into a great deal of trouble to prove to me how interesting control mechanics are, but i never questioned that.
My trouble is a bronze core card accumulating 15+ power each while not being on the board. Moreover, doing so of removal special cards, creating sleepy delaying game.
Let me rephrase my complain to be really clear: Having a control deck, that can accumulate power in non-interactive state is both ruinous for balance, since it gives a decisive edge to such deck in any control matchup (and no, it doesnt have a higher "skill cap" over other control decks, you have a clear advantage of your own bronze power being uniteractable. If anything, you have a significant advantage just handed to you), and unhealthy for gameplay, since it leads to frustrating delaying games. This shall be clear enough. If you think iam wrong, please, lets discuss it.
But a dialogue of "DBP is a badly designed card" - "But Borkh is cool" is not really constructive, so please, keep it to the mechanic in question.

 

[Rawls]

I don't think DBP is a poorly designed card. It's specifically made to synergize with control. Without them control decks would have a hard time competing because they can't add much value to the board. Having said that I do think the card is overpowered currently. As I said before, I think it ought to be reduced to 1 point value to start.

I think the nature of the deck makes it different from Axemen for a few reasons. The first is that ST cannot rez units like SK can. That is a huge difference. If you require them to be on the board no one will play them because they will be easily counter-able with no way to bring them back. It will make it a dead card. Also, Axemen can grow by several points each turn with a well designed wounding deck. DBP can only grow 1 point per turn by design (maybe a couple times per game it will be 2 if they play natures gift or something).

 

[Pruny]

nerf this basterds now! they ruin the game, make them boost while on board only.

 

[Trantyn]

Every faction has cards that are buffed off the board.

Win round 1 against this deck and you win the match.

 

[Laveley]

Just got this situation on a game. Of course i just timed out to discard the dbp. Of course i didnt get a gg.




Which other build would involve such a tactical play on the current metta?

 

[-Arkane]

To Arkane

My post yesterday came after facing this deck something like 5 out of 6 straight matches, so I was quite frustrated with it. I brought up the Axemen deck as axemen damage are one of about 4 core Skellige decks (the others being Morkvarg strengthen, Queensguard, and self-damage/warcry). I have tried pretty much every tweak to the Axemen deck that I can think of, and have been using them since back when they only were buffed when your own units were damaged. The ST special spam deck completely negates this entire deck core, and I don't think that is healthy for the metagame. It's not just a difficult matchup; it is a theoretically impossible matchup since there is no way for Axemen to get buffed. It is unfeasible to continue to use an Axemen deck in ranked as I will automatically lose every time I face this deck, and this deck apparently fares well enough against other deck types to be one of the two most common that I see (Nilfgaard spies being the other). There is no small tweak that can be done to an Axemen damage deck to make it competitive against this deck. I could switch to a different deck entirely, but then I'd be another person playing one of the common decks, and that gets very boring for everyone. I don't think CDPR intended to have one deck type completely negate other elaborate core mechanics.

There are also other things that I think need to be buffed or nerfed, but this is a thread on ST special spam so I was merely giving my opinion on this particular deck.

I don't think your suggested nerf would make any difference. Most other decks will usually have units on the board, so the spells would always hit something. I think the DBP either need to be agile, but only gain strength while on the board, or they need to be limited to one row. There are also several small buffs I'd like them to make to Skellige (like having Donar pull a bronze unit rather than a bronze card from the opponent's deck), but that's a topic for a different thread.

Ideally, I'd like to see a system for ranked matches that I suggested here. This would allow me to play my usual deck, but switch to an alternate if I suspect to be facing a deck like this.

Dear KThomas14,

I can understand your frustration but your post just further reiterates my point of that your Axeman deck is being countered by the meta. The SK deck's that are dominant on the ladder do not run Axeman both Morkvarg/Queensguard decks do not run it. Savage bear on the other hand is being played and likewise doesn't get to utilise it's effect against Spell'otael but that doesn't mean the whole deck is now ineffective. SK's have the ability to res from graveyard which ST's have no such thing of as Rawls has kindly mentioned. This is huge and hard to deal with without burning through too many resources. Morkvarg cheese is tier one on par with NG Spies at the moment.

As for the nerf to DBP the reason why I suggested that was because I don't believe it needs to be nerfed in the first place. It's a card that you focus and build a deck around which is your win condition and is so painfully predictable that it leads to it being countered easily. NG save their Peter/Dbomb/Rot Tosser for the last turns or even just out str you with Tibor Ciri and co. We don't always have 3 DBP for the final round, at times you're forced to play one on r1 and at other times you don't draw 3 even with first lights. Like now i''m hesitant to scorch my second copy of FL with Schirru as i'm expecting to draw into my DBP's/FL or an Ithline in the second and third rounds but the fker does want to hide himself at times.

Making DBP only gain strength whilst onboard just kills the whole deck. You're forced to summon him and it's susceptible to an array of removal cards. Whilst right now it's still vunerable to all these outs but the opponent has to manage and save his resources for the right moment. It's like asking could you please play your highest valued minion so I can play this scorch in my hand next turn. You still can kill my DBP with the scorch or w/e but I will try to force your hand before that could happen is how the deck operates at the moment. On removing it's agile and binding it to a row would just make it even easier to counter, with igni, Rot Tossers etc. It's so predictable as it is (win condition), the suggested nerfs don't seem to balance the card but rather makes it mindlessly be able to counter it. I don't think that's a good nerf to the card it's more of a plea.

Well, its not a completely proactive autopilot deck (for futher information, look melleestack dwarves). I thought ive been precise on what exactly i didnt like about this deck: its one mechanic: DBP being buffed in deck. That is precisely the one and only thing i complain about. Borkh indeed leads to some very thoughtfull turns, but he has nothing to do with this mechanic. Ithline is also a really well designed card, and again, she has nothing to do with DBP.
It is a control deck, after all, so yes, you have to manage your removal tools and your own limited power supply. And it is an enjoyable part of the game.
But your opponent (especially if hes playing control too) is left with nothing to interact. And matches end up with turns like "Weather empty row" - > "lacerate empty row" stagnating swamp. And DBPs ability to gain massive power while remaining completely invulnuravle (ok, almost, Vamp regis exists) is what allows it to be a thing. You went into a great deal of trouble to prove to me how interesting control mechanics are, but i never questioned that.
My trouble is a bronze core card accumulating 15+ power each while not being on the board. Moreover, doing so of removal special cards, creating sleepy delaying game.
Let me rephrase my complain to be really clear: Having a control deck, that can accumulate power in non-interactive state is both ruinous for balance, since it gives a decisive edge to such deck in any control matchup (and no, it doesnt have a higher "skill cap" over other control decks, you have a clear advantage of your own bronze power being uniteractable. If anything, you have a significant advantage just handed to you), and unhealthy for gameplay, since it leads to frustrating delaying games. This shall be clear enough. If you think iam wrong, please, lets discuss it.
But a dialogue of "DBP is a badly designed card" - "But Borkh is cool" is not really constructive, so please, keep it to the mechanic in question.

You weren't precise at all, you complained about Eithene+Saskia+Roach combo which I had to highlight to you that other ST decks have access to this aswell and you tried to make it seem like the deck had no skill at all. Let me refresh your memory, I quote; "Also, what skill exactly do you mean? Playing a leader+saskia+roach as a powerplay doesnt seem particulary challenging. DPB naturally stagger themselves as they are pulled with rally. So, where exactly does a hard decision making process step in? Not placing 3 agile units on a single row? Well now, apparently im good at this game!" "(where opponent cant interact with it) and pulling it out on last turns with FL is a "healthy interactive mechanic"?".

That's why I felt obliged to bring in one of the scenarios of many in regards to the borkh play which I'm happy you found it cool.

I'm glad to hear about your U turn and acknowledgement of how it's a control deck which conflicts with your earlier post.
As for the DBP you want to interact with it, what's stopping you? Last I checked you can only play one DBP per turn unless you Ithlinne into FL. Is it because the player managed to wittle down your resources? Or did you simply missplay somewhere to not deal with the inevitable DBP drop.

Also I don't understand why you're trying to confine the discussion to a mirror match now that's a different topic of which my suggested "nerf" deals with.

"My trouble is a bronze core card accumulating 15+ power each while not being on the board. Moreover, doing so of removal special cards, creating sleepy delaying game.
Let me rephrase my complain to be really clear: Having a control deck, that can accumulate power in non-interactive state is both ruinous for balance, since it gives a decisive edge to such deck in any control matchup (and no, it doesnt have a higher "skill cap" over other control decks, you have a clear advantage of your own bronze power being uniteractable. If anything, you have a significant advantage just handed to you), and unhealthy for gameplay, since it leads to frustrating delaying games. This shall be clear enough. If you think iam wrong, please, lets discuss it.
But a dialogue of "DBP is a badly designed card" - "But Borkh is cool" is not really constructive, so please, keep it to the mechanic in question."

I'm happy to discuss it with you but wasting a paragraph on blanket statements like this doesn't give me much room to discuss the issue at hand.

 

[isnadtochiev]

You weren't precise at all, you complained about Eithene+Saskia+Roach combo which I had to highlight ....

Well, iam sorry, at first i assumed you've actually read the topic before replying to it. Since my issue with said deck is described on page one.

 

[ibilibertas]

I think the nature of the deck makes it different from Axemen for a few reasons. The first is that ST cannot rez units like SK can. That is a huge difference. If you require them to be on the board no one will play them because they will be easily counter-able with no way to bring them back. It will make it a dead card. Also, Axemen can grow by several points each turn with a well designed wounding deck. DBP can only grow 1 point per turn by design (maybe a couple times per game it will be 2 if they play natures gift or something).

First thought in my mind, shouldn't literally everything being counter-able? They can change things in a different way i am sure. The issue atm is the control is dead, the new control is full Special/Spell deck with 3 to 6 units only (recently NG Spell emerged) and i am travelling back in time, putting in the hands of Lifecoach and Noxious these type of deck and i am struck, in this imaginary scenario, by boredom. So hard that i plea t forfeit every single game in a surreal dimension i have no understanding of.

The previous meta wasn't perfect, but this meta is becoming more and more worst imo. The 0 interactivity between the opponents is unappealing to me, Leaders and Order Units provide far more thinning than needed. Why? Because a 25 Deck has incredible consistency. The more consistent the more predictability comes into play and the boredom hits me again like a truck. There's a fine thin line between having a bit RNG and none at all and in this case -imo- the line is crossed. I would, now, even consider them to put the decks on a 30 card limit to balance this if they like how the meta shifted from it's previous state.

But i don't know with certainty, this is a meta still in a formulating state, perhaps i am overacting and i am wrong. But i know how it feels when i play and i counter, or cannot counter some things. Most of the time i like question things like a 6yo saying "why?" all the time, because we need a question to reach an answer. So time will tell i guess.

 

[Laveley]

The previous meta wasn't perfect, but this meta is becoming more and more worst imo.

The current meta is worst. But this special control builds for me are a fresh breeze. At least they require some though to be played optimally. Again, have you tried? Have you played on high elo with them when you know that your opponent know what you are doing and are keeping his counter cards for the right moment?

Again, this types of decks are the only ones that still offer a reminiscence of tactical gameplay. You say there is 0 interactivity when someone is playing this deck. Well, maybe 0 interactivity on the board, but the actual mind game is much more interactive than anything else you can play on this meta, believe it or not.