Sheldon Skaggs

[OG.laloquaint]

20 points for 8 provisions is definitely not balanced.

Even if you shut down their engines, Sheldon easily gets more value than other 8 provision cards. There's quite a few handbuff cards in ST now and there aren't really that many cards that can prevent Sheldon from getting a lot of value.

 

[Luckless_Jack]

Poor Sheldon. For once in Gwent's history he is relevant and seeing good use and people want to send him back into the dark corners of the card collection...

Back in Closed Beta when he was a plain point card and one of the silver rare cards, he was derisively known as Sheldon Scraps because he wasn't that great and kept appearing as a duplicate in your kegs - and back then he only milled for 10 scraps.

Can't we just let him have his moment...?

 

[alexsandred]

Provision needs to be raised at least by 2. He was not relevant because overall st was in a weak state.

 

[BoYoDes]

Poor Sheldon. For once in Gwent's history he is relevant and seeing good use and people want to send him back into the dark corners of the card collection...

Back in Closed Beta when he was a plain point card and one of the silver rare cards, he was derisively known as Sheldon Scraps because he wasn't that great and kept appearing as a duplicate in your kegs - and back then he only milled for 10 scraps.

Can't we just let him have his moment...?

He's seen fine spots, depending on the meta. Problem is when you start seeing him in every ST deck.

My Shilardo do likes to see him played for 2 points right after him, but still this is only one counter in one Faction and a counter that will not be always included in every NG deck.

He does need a bit of either STR or PROV adjustment.

 

[Charles5pencer]

Problem is when you start seeing him in every ST deck.

First of all, he is not in every Scoia'tael deck, but if we talk about Dana Meadbh decks (which is only part of all ST decks), he is there very often, that is true. However it is fault of Gwent developers for designing ST mechanic and deck archetype this way.

It is similar with Witcher trio and draw&mulligan change. With old mulligan rules, Witchers were fine at 3 power. After there was change to "mandatory" mulligan 2 cards each round (instead of fixed number of mulligans for each leader for whole game) that provoked something like self-fulfilling prophecy and that change encouraged putting Witchers into almost every deck, because risk of playing with bad deal of Witchers was significantly decreased in comparison to situation before mulligan change.

When there is deck archetype, which needs just only best of the best from each race, it strongly encourages to play with the best of that race even if whole dwarven race would have been completely terrible and Sheldon would have been the least terrible of the terriblest dwarwen cards. Again it is similar to principle of self-fulfilling prophecy.

He is not played because of being overpowered, he is played because he is the best in deck archetype conditions, which were set by Gwent developers. In my opinion, there is not necessary any change to Sheldon Skaggs and also in this discussion is ongoing strong factor of something similar to "confirmation bias".

Edit:
Addendum
This whole "issue" about Sheldon Skaggs reminds me old story from Magic the Gathering. Many years ago, in past millenium, there was terrible useless card called "Bazaar of Baghdad". It had no suitable use and was just disadvantageous to play it in your MtG deck then after some time, there was added new expansion with new deck archetype, which exactly needed card like Bazaar of Baghdad and it was vital card for that deck archetype. Suddenly, that card went rocket speed climb in its price and was played in "every deck" of that archetype. Similar story could be told about another MtG card "Lion's Eye Diamond".
All those cases of 2 MtG cards and Sheldon Skaggs have same factor. Card itself is not overpowered and sits on right place of "evaluation vacuum", it is just developers, who decide to create new archetype, where particular card totally shines.

 

[Roi_Barbichette]

StrykerxS77x : I had 4 "non agitators" dwarves in my deck.

OG.laloquaint : 20 points for 8 provision ? Since you're not supposed to include the boosts received by Sheldon in your calculation, I would like to know how he can produce 20 points value.

As I already said, I would be ok if Sheldon cost was raised by 1. But asking for a higher raise doesn't make sense.

For 10 provision, to make him profitable, you would have to use at least Ithlinne on him or 2 agitators (2 low tempo units).
It's not as simple as it sounds.

Do you know what I find strange ? When the unicorn and the chironex were totally OP, only a few complained and most players included them in their decks without second thought.

It appears that there is a double standard...

If Sheldon is nerfed, I also hope that CDPR will give ST more units who synergise with handbuff.
For example, Weeping Willow definitely needs a boost, because right now, he is just cannon fodder.

 

[Luckless_Jack]

He's seen fine spots, depending on the meta. Problem is when you start seeing him in every ST deck.

My Shilardo do likes to see him played for 2 points right after him, but still this is only one counter in one Faction and a counter that will not be always included in every NG deck.

He does need a bit of either STR or PROV adjustment.

My post was a bit tongue-in-cheek and was more a reflection of CDPR's habit of taking cards from useless to overpowered and back again. It would be a shame if yet another card was nerfed into the unplayable zone.

I don't personally have strong feelings one way or the other on whether Sheldon needs nerfing. Sometimes I use him, sometimes I don't. Sometimes he gets good value, sometimes he doesn't. I don't tend to build my decks around one or two all-in strategies though, so Sheldon's power level isn't really a significant factor for me. If and when CDPR nerf him, it won't really affect my decks either way. I just hope they don't go too far ... again. The pool of viable cards doesn't need shrinking any further.

I think like Charles5pencer said above, his current over-representation may be more down to the limited viable standalone dwarf alternatives that fit easily into a Dana deck. Also, control of all types is king right now, which makes him more desirable than the boosting dwarfs. He's actually a bit of a liability in seasonal mode, as he tends to get pulled from the deck as a plain 3 deal 3 card more often than not.

If CDPR's data (rather than current momentary public perception) shows that he is too strong too often, then hopefully they start with a small tweak, say +1 provision, and see how that goes, rather than reaching straight for the massive nerf bat.

 

[dwavenhobble]

The issue with Skaggs is he hightlights the advantages and lack of counter play (for the most part) of handbuff decks.

There's 3 factions who can actually counter it and only 2 of them has the required cards that also are seen in regular play and seen as worth running.

Both of those require you to time it very much right and 1 of those two require almost perfect timing.

Compare that to boost on the field.

There's ways to drain it.

You can reset it

You can kill it with various cards

You can scorch a big card

You can damage it with removal cards.


Most of these are available for all decks to run.

VS handbuff / last turn boost you have


Blood wine (doesn't stop hand Skaggs but other variants)
Pitt Trap (beats all but 1 variant but has to be played the turn before Skaggs and can be very easily avoided by skaggs)
Kambi (requires them to be playing their buffed card last and you have to go the turn before)
The Nilfgaard card that sets the most powerful unit in hand to 1 (which is the more reliable of the lot but still is beaten by 2 variants)

Most aren't as reliable nor are they available to use by most factions except for Blood Wine.

 

[Gyg]

But if you run handbuff it is difficult to win round one as you will have bad tempo with handbuffing cards. Rarely will you be able to play Sheldon as a last card. It is a major disadvantage.

 

[dwavenhobble]

StrykerxS77x : I had 4 "non agitators" dwarves in my deck.

OG.laloquaint : 20 points for 8 provision ? Since you're not supposed to include the boosts received by Sheldon in your calculation, I would like to know how he can produce 20 points value.

As I already said, I would be ok if Sheldon cost was raised by 1. But asking for a higher raise doesn't make sense.

For 10 provision, to make him profitable, you would have to use at least Ithlinne on him or 2 agitators (2 low tempo units).
It's not as simple as it sounds.

Do you know what I find strange ? When the unicorn and the chironex were totally OP, only a few complained and most players included them in their decks without second thought.

It appears that there is a double standard...

If Sheldon is nerfed, I also hope that CDPR will give ST more units who synergise with handbuff.
For example, Weeping Willow definitely needs a boost, because right now, he is just cannon fodder.

It's possible to do it whithout Ithlinne which actually is easier to do and more profitable you just have to use that Crimson Curse Deathblow unit that boosts a unit in your hand by 2 if it gets the deathblow.

That's what I used in the calculations and to just break even Skaggs only needs to hit a 3 value unit.

Ithlinne is actually sub optimal because Skaggs only breaks even on a 5 or better.

But if you run handbuff it is difficult to win round one as you will have bad tempo with handbuffing cards. Rarely will you be able to play Sheldon as a last card. It is a major disadvantage.

There are ways to do it so you don't lose as much value Ithlinne is actually a liability because of the shes a 5 for 11 provisions and only gives a 4 buff meaning any unit she buffs has to make up a 2 value while agitators and other cards provide value that's almost equal to their provisions (Agitators are a 2 value and buff by 2 which covers their 4 provisions) for example thus the only value needed to make up is the buffed units provision value.

Also it's not that hard to win round one as you only don't have to play the full hand buff in one round so while you're playing cards (initially) and below value (2 for provision cost) it's not hard to make up those costs with other plays.

 

[OG.laloquaint]

StrykerxS77x : I had 4 "non agitators" dwarves in my deck.

OG.laloquaint : 20 points for 8 provision ? Since you're not supposed to include the boosts received by Sheldon in your calculation, I would like to know how he can produce 20 points value.

As I already said, I would be ok if Sheldon cost was raised by 1. But asking for a higher raise doesn't make sense.

For 10 provision, to make him profitable, you would have to use at least Ithlinne on him or 2 agitators (2 low tempo units).
It's not as simple as it sounds.

Do you know what I find strange ? When the unicorn and the chironex were totally OP, only a few complained and most players included them in their decks without second thought.

It appears that there is a double standard...

If Sheldon is nerfed, I also hope that CDPR will give ST more units who synergise with handbuff.
For example, Weeping Willow definitely needs a boost, because right now, he is just cannon fodder.

Why wouldn't I include the boosts Sheldon gets in my calculation? That's literally the gist of the card, boosting it. A guy played a 10 power Sheldon that did 10 damage. That's a 20 point play. Even if Sheldon is boosted by just three points, he still gets more value than his provision cost and is able to destroy any engine. He clearly needs some balancing.

 

[ZenaRose]

20 points for 8 provisions is definitely not balanced.

Thanks for analytics from rank 13, its very usefull

Sheldon is always 3-deal 3 damage card. Rest of its value is paid by other low-tempo cards.

 

[Gyg]

Possible solution is to remove variance from Sheldon and change his ability to deal 3 dmg on deploy or 5 dmg if boosted.

 

[BoYoDes]

... Sheldon is always 3-deal 3 damage card. Rest of its value is paid by other low-tempo cards.

Yeah, if you create him with Anna... when he is in your ST deck, you are basically doubling the value you get from the other units. Which is not an issue per se.

The (biggest) issue of the card is not the card itself, it lies in the roots of Homecoming, where the pure Damage Provision Points (PP) is cheaper than the Strength PP and I may open an entire topic debating this and why it makes the game feels infuriating because of it more often than not.

 

[ZenaRose]

The (biggest) issue of the card is not the card itself,

but fact that low-ranked unexpirienced players pushing devs to nerf good, well-designed balanced cards

 

[Roi_Barbichette]

Why wouldn't I include the boosts Sheldon gets in my calculation? That's literally the gist of the card, boosting it. A guy played a 10 power Sheldon that did 10 damage. That's a 20 point play. Even if Sheldon is boosted by just three points, he still gets more value than his provision cost and is able to destroy any engine. He clearly needs some balancing.

Other members and I already explained why this way of calculation is wrong. In order to play a 10 body / 10 damages Sheldon, you need a combination of cards.

A 10 body Sheldon is however an odd example, since you need Ithlinne, 2 agitators and 1 boost of a smuggler (or Filavandrel) to achieve this result.

A 9 body Sheldon produces 18 points for 8 provisions. But it requires to play beforehand :
- 2 units with 2 body for 8 provisions (agitators),
- 1 unit with 5 body for 11 provisions.

If you take all these factors into account, you played 27 points for 27 provisions...

The fact is that any units can exceed their provision costs thanks to handbuff. This is the whole point of handbuffing : playing weak body units in order to improve other units in your hands...

Why the points given to Sheldon by other units should be taken into account to calculate his provision cost ? It's totally arbitrary...

By that logic, a cyclops who uses his ability on Detlaff : HV is a 10 points play for 6 provisions. That's a really good deal for a mere bronze card...
And I could give you 10 more examples...

Could we stop with this strange logic, please ?

Boyodes : Damage dealing is not cheaper, but it is definitely safer than raising units STR. That's why so many decks include the 4 body / 4 damages units.

 

[OG.laloquaint]

Thanks for analytics from rank 13, its very usefull

Sheldon is always 3-deal 3 damage card. Rest of its value is paid by other low-tempo cards.

Why does my rank matter? I know what the card does exactly and what cards support it. Just cause my rank is low doesn't mean I don't understand the game. If I started using Gimpy, Gregoire, Bloodlust and every other auto-included card in the game, I'm sure I'd climb much quicker. If anything, my rank proves how unbalanced some cards are.

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2019

Other members and I already explained why this way of calculation is wrong. In order to play a 10 body / 10 damages Sheldon, you need a combination of cards.

A 10 body Sheldon is however an odd example, since you need Ithlinne, 2 agitators and 1 boost of a smuggler (or Filavandrel) to achieve this result.

A 9 body Sheldon produces 18 points for 8 provisions. But it requires to play beforehand :
- 2 units with 2 body for 8 provisions (agitators),
- 1 unit with 5 body for 11 provisions.

If you take all these factors into account, you played 27 points for 27 provisions...

The fact is that any units can exceed their provision costs thanks to handbuff. This is the whole point of handbuffing : playing weak body units in order to improve other units in your hands...

Why the points given to Sheldon by other units should be taken into account to calculate his provision cost ? It's totally arbitrary...

By that logic, a cyclops who uses his ability on Detlaff : HV is a 10 points play for 6 provisions. That's a really good deal for a mere bronze card...
And I could give you 10 more examples...

Could we stop with this strange logic, please ?

Boyodes : Damage dealing is not cheaper, but it is definitely safer than raising units STR. That's why so many decks include the 4 body / 4 damages units.

Okay, 6 points for 8 provisions is fine, but the point is that the card can easily gets more value than that. Nobody ever plays a 6 point Sheldon. It's always 8+.

The problem for me is that it is almost impossible to stop this combo because there's only a handful of cards that can stop it. You can't stop Ithilinne. Stopping the Dryad with the Deathblow ability of boosting a unit by two in your hand is very difficult since most units are low strength. Resetting Sheldon does absolutely nothing for you because he has already gotten your opponent way more points than what you'll get from resetting it, same logic applies to Scorching it. I don't want Sheldon to get completely nerfed into the ground but there should at least be more ways of stopping this from going off. Most factions can't deal with it. I mean, people have mentioned Draining it? I mean seriously? There's a reason nobody uses those cards. Trying using Regis or Masters of Disguise and see where that gets you.

 

[Charles5pencer]

Okay, 6 points for 8 provisions is fine, but the point is that the card can easily gets more value than that. Nobody ever plays a 6 point Sheldon. It's always 8+.

That is clearly lie. I saw yesterday on my own eyes Sheldon Skaggs being played for 6 points and with me, it saw about 20 other observers of that stream. I can write you name of stream channel if you want.

 

[OG.laloquaint]

That is clearly lie. I saw yesterday on my own eyes Sheldon Skaggs being played for 6 points and with me, it saw about 20 other observers of that stream. I can write you name of stream channel if you want.

Sure, if you want. The point is that the card needs very little boosting in order for it to get more value than other 8 provision cards.

 

[Charles5pencer]

The point is that the card needs very little boosting in order for it to get more value than other 8 provision cards.

That is another manipulative claim. I was checking 8 provision cards and in fact about 80% of golden 8 provision cards is able to give better value than very little boosted Sheldon Skaggs.