Shop Design - How do you want to spend your MONAY?

[Sardukhar]

[Read this in [C-3P0s voice]

Ooooh, no. That -is- Cyberunk. Go re-read your manual under Trust No One. It's not as all bad as you make it sound, but yeah, you have made enemies in CP2020. Powerful ones if you're wealthy/connected enough to afford a "safehouse". They will eventualy find you if you stay still long enough. Why wouldn't they - you've taken jobs doing just that.

This is a big differenc between CP2020 and other settings: consequences. They should be merciless. Fair, but merciless. You don't need magic GM powers to find the players, just apply the force of whoever wants to find them and forget they are PCs.

If you don't keep up this pressure, your players will lose the Edge. You'll be playing, I dunno, some other Softer game. Maybe Shadowrun. No, wait, I do that in SR, too.

Also, don't respect my playstyle. That's disgusting.

 

[Ghost_Machine]

I think it sounds funnier in Christopher Walken's voice.

 

[thewarsend]

[Read this in [C-3P0s voice]

Ooooh, no. That -is- Cyberpunk. Go re-read your manual under Trust No One. It's not as all bad as you make it sound, but yeah, you have made enemies in CP2020. Powerful ones if you're wealthy/connected enough to afford a "safehouse". They will eventually find you if you stay still long enough. Why wouldn't they - you've taken jobs doing just that.

This is a big difference between CP2020 and other settings: consequences. They should be merciless. Fair, but merciless. You don't need magic GM powers to find the players, just apply the force of whoever wants to find them and forget they are PCs.

If you don't keep up this pressure, your players will lose the Edge. You'll be playing, I dunno, some other Softer game. Maybe Shadowrun. No, wait, I do that in SR, too.

Also, don't respect my playstyle. That's disgusting.

"CYBERPSYCHOSIS
Although the basics of cyberpsychosis are well documented in Cyberpunk 2020, you might want a more precise version of the illness. In each of these variations, the eventual result is a blind rage against people; however, these choices will begin to appear as personality flaws at an Empathy 2 or lower.

Roll 1D10: [Solo Of Fortune, pg.10]

(1-3) Blind hatred of humanity: Standard cyberpsychosis.

(4) Catatonia: Withdraw from all contact with humanity.

(5) Obsession: Centered on one focused idea.

(6) Paranoia: They're all out to get you. Trust no one.

(7) Delusions: Believe something unconnected to reality:
1-2: Immortality. You can't be killed.
3-4: Fantasy. Live in fantasy world of your devising.
5-6: Infallibility: You're never wrong.

(8) Hyperactivity: Can't rest and run around as on speed.

(9) Phobic: Deathly afraid of something. Sight or thought of it will paralyze you with fear 80% of the time.

(10) Schizophrenic: Your personality fragments, developing into 1D6 different identities. At times of stress, any one of these may take over. Roll 1D6, assigning a value for each personality, re-roll any unassigned values."

As you can see, your "Trust no one" motto is a sign of cyberpsychosis.. Nothing else..





But you must be talking about V3... Only other reference to "Trust no one" line is from V3. I thought you didn't like V3...

"Trust No One. Keep your... er ..Minami10 Handy
Paranoia is important in a Cyberpunk run. Players shouldn’t be able to tell who are the good guys and who are the bad just by looking at them. Choices between sides should be ambiguous— there should be no clear cut sense of good and evil, much like real life. Sworn enemies may be thrown together without notice or preparation. Heroes may have to do something illegal or distasteful to accomplish something good; villains may have to do a little good once in a while. It’s the breaks."

As far as i can see, this is not a rule.. It is a suggestion. It says players shouldn't be able to tell who is good or who is evil. It doesn't say everybody is evil and everybody is out to get you. It even implies that there is good people, heroes as well as bad people and villains.

Book also clearly states you will have "friends" as well as enemies. (Depending on how well you throw the dice i guess.) So the game itself is not set on a bubble of mistrust.


But wait, there is more:

"-4B FRIENDS & E N E M I E S-
Living on the Edge means you don't do things halfway. Your friends are tight, and your enemies ruthless. If you're here, it's because your social life took a major turn (for the worse?) this year. Roll 1D10.
On a 1-5, you made a friend.
On a 6-10, you made an enemy.

-MAKE A FRIEND-
You lucked out and made a new friend (a rare occurrence in the Cyberpunk world). For each new friend, choose or roll sex on 1D10:
E V E N= Male
O D D= Female
Choose or roll your relationship to this friend:
(1) Like a big brother/sister to you
(2) Like a kid sister/brother to you
(3) A teacher or mentor
(4) A partner or co-worker
(5) An old lover (choose which one)
(6) An old enemy (choose which one)
(7) Like a foster parent to you
(8) A relative
(9) Reconnect with an old childhood friend
(10) Met through a common interest.
Who is this person? Move over to Personal Style and Motivations and make a few rolls to find out what your friend \is like.
When done, go back to LIFE EVENTS and roll the next year."

The book also clearly states you have "tight" friends. So, there is in fact people whom you can trust. (People from your past.) Do i have to tell you more?

 

[guidokpd]

Ohh..perhaps because if you treat your Team like they are eventually going to murder you, sooner or later, they will.

Of course you take them home with you. Anything else would be rude and akin to insult.

Of course it's not really your home, just a coffin you keep for the purpose.

Again, who the hell in CP2020 has a safehouse(s)? Or a home(s)? The Future Is Disposable. Stay Mobile, Stay Alive.

Let them be insulted. I just met these people. Later after some trust has been built they might find out about one. Or maybe we get a team place. If we start as a team there is a higher level of trust.

This is all character dependent, and probably not applicable to the computer game. I have played many different kinds of characters. Some had houses, some had families. It is a lot easier to play characters with no attachments or commitments. How many people are there with no attachments? Without a place where do you sleep? Motels get expensive fast. Stay mobile is a must. Always have a bag ready to move. Grab it and go. Always have an exit, more than one if possible.

 

[wisdom000]

I don't care. Wisdom gets shit wrong all the damn time in this setting. He plays a -nomad-. Try to understand how loopy that makes him in a world of Solos and Netrunners and Cops.

Cops got no jurisdiction over me most of the time, and I can outdrive the poorly funded ones that do. Netrunners can't do shit to me because I am not jacked in to anything, nor is anyone around me. And Solo's can't find me. Being a nomad makes perfect sense.

He also thinks the US is still potent in 2020, which is to laugh.

Which is canon... I know, you like to disregard entire sourcebooks in the franchise because they aren't to your taste, but that's you being screwy, not anyone else.

Safehouses are what you have when you need to feel safe in Cyberpunk. You should not have that feeling for very long. They depend on secrecy from your enemies. Secrecy. In 2020. That lasts longer than ten minutes and you have..in a physical location? Also to laugh. And you have caches?

"If they cache weapons somewhere, steal them. If they stop for a rest, mug them. If they can't handle the pressure, they shouldn't be playing Cyberpunk. Send them back to that nice role-playing game with the happy elves and the singing birds."

DO you want to go back to the singing birds? Do you?

Really Sard... you and your GM tend to run with the hyperbole don't you...just every bit of over the top flavor text you can find and you lap it up like it was meant to be serious. That same bit of text also dais it rains all the time and all the birds died off. But we know that shit ain't true, because we see birds in the art, we see nice sunny days in the art... in fact, I can't remember one image in any of the books where it is raining.... I am sure there probably is one somewhere, but I will b damned if I can recall it.

Not only is not having a home fairly ridiculous for most characters, for some it would be pretty much deal breaking for their roles. A corporate who sleeps in his car because he has to stay "mobile" isn't going to get along too well on his wrinkled suit and homeless guy stank. And he damn sure isn't going to be seen slumming it with the peasants in the Coffin Hotels... No, he is going to get his ass a luxury apartment, and upgrade every time he gets a raise.

Your trauma team surgeon or ER doc... you can damn well bet they have some pretty nice digs too.

A tech on the move would be pretty damn limited on the tools he can carry.

I feel for you if you had a GM that took away everything you characters got... I mean I know you probably dig that, but really, it does kinda ruin the whole "I am gonna risk my life" career choice.

Once characters achieve a certain level of success, they can afford the better things in life, and every one needs a place to sleep.

And that's not even counting the true safe houses, the emergency boltholes where you keep a vehicle, extra equipment and weapons, and a cot, for when you have to lay low.

Hell the only people who live the way you espouse, always mobile, never owning more than they can carry, and being attached to nothing, are Nomads.

As for friends and betrayal... well, a professional is only as good as his word... once word gets out that you betrayed your crew, or your friends, or your contacts, or your employer, then welcome to never getting another job again. So if you are going to be a douche, better make sure your character can live off the take for the rest of his life, because it's going to be awful lonely.

 

[Sardukhar]

SO MANY WORDS. Oh where to start. I'm spoilt for choice.

Let's go in order:

Wars, I'm not a cyberpsycho. Come here and listen to what my tablesaw says and you'll understand everything. It sings...

Guido, my point was that it's a good idea to create the illusion of trust, if not trust itself. If you, as Wisdom points out, treat everyone poorly right away, good luck in career world. But of course, you were being conservative and illustrating the paranoid-survivor style, not the safe-corporate-style. I dig that.

Wisdom, everyone, EVERYone picks and chooses from the sourcebooks, if in no small part because they can be contradictory and confusing. My focus on the US being mashed in 2020 is that it's a key tenet of Cyberpunk 2020 that the world has changed and the US is no longer dominant.

That's really key to helping induce culture shock. The USA has fragmented and been politically emasculated, different regions now effectively self-governing and payng little heed to the feds. It's not the 20th Century anymore. But that's an argument for another thread, perhaps. Again.

The sourcebooks are to supplement the mood, theme and attitudes established in the base book, not supplant them. So, yes,it's raining, ( no not always, duh). So, yes, you're paranoid because they ARE out to get you, ( nearly always, duh) and, yes, the birds are all dead. Those were cyberbirds or something. Possibly fed on the blood of nomads who figured they could hide from aerial recon, satellite tracking and predictive softwarre? Silly nomads.

A GM doesn't "take" everything the players get - he or she responds in a reasonable manner to their actions within the setting. If you make powerful enemies, more powerful than you are, you better either be a part of a group strong enough to protect you, ( not most player characters) or be unattached to your stuff. If the GM doesn't hand out these consequences for your actions, then they are twisting both the setting and the story to accomodate player foolishness.

Players can and should, if they like, try to get stuff, organized neatly by make model and colour and enjoy the trappings of success. But they should never think they can outrun the consequences of what it took to get that stuff in the dark future. That is cyberpunk.

 

[thewarsend]

SO MANY WORDS. Oh where to start. I'm spoilt for choice.

Let's go in order:

Wars, I'm not a cyberpsycho. Come here and listen to what my tablesaw says and you'll understand everything. It sings...

Guido, my point was that it's a good idea to create the illusion of trust, if not trust itself. If you, as Wisdom points out, treat everyone poorly right away, good luck in career world. But of course, you were being conservative and illustrating the paranoid-survivor style, not the safe-corporate-style. I dig that.

Wisdom, everyone, EVERYone picks and chooses from the sourcebooks, if in no small part because they can be contradictory and confusing. My focus on the US being mashed in 2020 is that it's a key tenet of Cyberpunk 2020 that the world has changed and the US is no longer dominant.

That's really key to helping induce culture shock. The USA has fragmented and been politically emasculated, different regions now effectively self-governing and paying little heed to the feds. It's not the 20th Century anymore. But that's an argument for another thread, perhaps. Again.

The sourcebooks are to supplement the mood, theme and attitudes established in the base book, not supplant them. So, yes,it's raining, ( no not always, duh). So, yes, you're paranoid because they ARE out to get you, ( nearly always, duh) and, yes, the birds are all dead. Those were cyberbirds or something. Possibly fed on the blood of nomads who figured they could hide from aerial recon, satellite tracking and predictive software? Silly nomads.

A GM doesn't "take" everything the players get - he or she responds in a reasonable manner to their actions within the setting. If you make powerful enemies, more powerful than you are, you better either be a part of a group strong enough to protect you, ( not most player characters) or be unattached to your stuff. If the GM doesn't hand out these consequences for your actions, then they are twisting both the setting and the story to accommodate player foolishness.

Players can and should, if they like, try to get stuff, organized neatly by make model and colour and enjoy the trappings of success. But they should never think they can outrun the consequences of what it took to get that stuff in the dark future. That is cyberpunk.

You disregarded 90% of my points and 75% of Wisdoms points.. Thats 165% in a single post... Congrats.. Thats a new score.

I've already proven that your idea about "Trust no one because everybody is your enemy, there is no such a thing as true friends in Cyberpunk and everybody is there to betray you." is clearly wrong.. You are going against the sourcebook you quoted..

To quote same sourcebook you quoted:

"Living on the Edge means you don't do things halfway. Your friends are tight, and your enemies ruthless."

 

[Sardukhar]

Ahhh...okay. The "Trust No One" quote is the section head for the rest of the quote about mugging, weapons caching, etc.

You can probably trust your friends. For awhile. Pretty sure I made that clear when I said you shuold actually trust your Team...within reason. Trust No One is a Cyberpunk idea, among others. You'll find it prominent in Neuromancer, Blade Runner, the Matrix...betrayals and infilitration are rife in those stories. If you do find a person or few people you can trust, great! But that's hardly the norm in a dark future.

A lot of this comes down to Theme. I really ike what Mike did in Cyberpunk 2020, the base book, for theme. The images and attitudes they come at you with are very strong for me, even when I think they are nuts, ( Style Over Substance?!), so I refer to the main book and those Themes as my touchstones. Anything from other books or even elsewhere in the main book that seems to contradict these Cyberpunk ideas, I consider second-tier creations.

Things like feeling safe in your home. Having lots of stuff. Trusting players and NPCs. Sunshine. Birds. Nomads.

Well, not nomads. I love nomads. I LOVE THEM.

If you're going to shoot for percentages for me to disregard, you'll find it more efficient to number your points. That way I can try for more inaccuracy.

 

[thewarsend]

Ahhh...okay. The "Trust No One" quote is the section head for the rest of the quote about mugging, weapons caching, etc.

You can probably trust your friends. For awhile. Pretty sure I made that clear when I said you shuold actually trust your Team...within reason. Trust No One is a Cyberpunk idea, among others. You'll find it prominent in Neuromancer, Blade Runner, the Matrix...betrayals and infilitration are rife in those stories. If you do find a person or few people you can trust, great! But that's hardly the norm in a dark future.

A lot of this comes down to Theme. I really ike what Mike did in Cyberpunk 2020, the base book, for theme. The images and attitudes they come at you with are very strong for me, even when I think they are nuts, ( Style Over Substance?!), so I refer to the main book and those Themes as my touchstones. Anything from other books or even elsewhere in the main book that seems to contradict these Cyberpunk ideas, I consider second-tier creations.

Things like feeling safe in your home. Having lots of stuff. Trusting players and NPCs. Sunshine. Birds. Nomads.

Well, not nomads. I love nomads. I LOVE THEM.

If you're going to shoot for percentages for me to disregard, you'll find it more efficient to number your points. That way I can try for more inaccuracy.

Everything i quoted is from the sourcebook.. So the betrayal theme is not a major theme that overrides every other theme there is. Even your "Trust no one" quote only states that you shouldn't be able to tell if someone who you just met is a good or a bad person. It doesn't say everyone is bad and they will betray you, it even says some people can are good and some are even heroes. What you are saying is basically, we are quoting same sourcebook, but your quote is the correct one because you like it better... Just because you don't trust NPC's it doesn't change the fact that some of them are trustworthy. You are picking up lines to prove your point now..

If things keep going like this, i'm gonna develop a percentage weapon to shoot you with...

 

[blank_redge]

...Sard, being a rabble rouser?

I am shocked. SHOCKED! at this turn of events. Never in a million years would I have imagined it!




eatingpopcorn.gif

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I've just been re-reading Wildside and in the money section it describes 'Barter Houses' as a place where you can register items you have to trade, find out their approximate value and log a 'want list' of items you want in exchange.

I hope we can get something like this in 2077. Even if this is part of the multiplayer elements.

 

[Sardukhar]

That's an interesting argument for multiplayer - what about some kind of Auction House? I suppose that would depend on the amount and variety of items in the game.

Mentally ill ideas like capital purchases aside, I mostly want to spend my MONAY on the insane amount of cyberware, weapons, gear and vehicle mods that the devs will be spending their time developing. Rather than wasting it on giving you people apartments or safehouses or cribs or whatever.

If you look at not only the cyberware and weapons lists, but also all the mods and quality varieties available, we should easily have enough itemry to fund a Barter House Exchange.

"Itemry". I made it up. Bite me.

Also, Wars, does your gun SHOOT percentages, or is it a gun MADE of percentages. You weren't clear and I need to know how best to make fun of your idea.

A.

 

[thewarsend]

Also, Wars, does your gun SHOOT percentages, or is it a gun MADE of percentages. You weren't clear and I need to know how best to make fun of your idea.
A.

It is a gun that i MADE out of percentages and it SHOOTs percentages.

Also, it is not my idea, it is what the sourcebook says...

 

[Sardukhar]

Wait, the sourcebook has a gun that shoots percentages made of percentages? Are you high? Are you high on the stuff?

 

[thewarsend]

Wait, the sourcebook has a gun that shoots percentages made of percentages? Are you high? Are you high on the stuff?

Oh, didn't you know? It is right after the third rule, "shoot Sard". But Wisdom may have altered my sourcebook a little.

 

[Sardukhar]

He can do that. He has Teh Powrz.

 

[thewarsend]

He can do that. He has Teh Powrz.

Of course he does. He is the Wisdom, the holy warrior, savior of Akatosh. Founder of the great library. Defender of seven kingdoms and so on.

(Remember this? )

 

[Lolssi83.811]

Things I'd like to see with vendors:
- They won't buy everything. Different vendors buy different things. Of course there could be vendors that buy almost everything also. And some are just stores that sell, not buy.
- Vendors have limited amount of money, so you can't sell everything to one vendor. But they should also get more money if I buy something from them.
- NPCs buying and selling stuff to each other. So money and gear would move around. Most likely way too hard to implement.
- Also if i sell better equipment to NPC than he had, I'd like to see him equip it.

Also not very important thing but liked how you could trade with almost anyone in STALKER games. Granted they didn't usually have much more than vodka and sausage with little money. All you need in the Zone

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Some very good points there. Limiting NPCs who will buy specific item types as well as who buys at all should be important. Not to mention the limiting of their resources.

Lets not forget the legality of items. I am sire moat people will be willing to buy personal electronics and other juno, but weapons and some other it's will be hot so you will need to find a suitable black marketeer and don't expect top dollar for it.

It would be nice to be able to trade with a lot of people. Even if its just those who you have built up a good rapport with.

 

[blank_redge]

Of course there could be vendors that buy almost everything also.

a.k.a. pawn shops.

Like real pawn shops, I'd like to see them price-gouge you, either selling something to them, or buying something from them (unless you have an appropriate skill to haggle with, to get the price slightly closer to fair-market value.)

Also, I'd like to see pawn shops be spawning points for random gear you can purchase, from lousy quality, up to gloriously shiny that'd you'd never be able to afford.

(And don't even try robbing the joint, choomba. That auto-tracking minigun isn't just for show.)