Should certain Roles be eliminated?

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Yes, Dragon, I read that. Which is why I added, "if they haven't in a while".

I read up on Cpunk often, have the books, wander the Net, blah blah blah. I run games! Good times.

BUT. Playing is different. As a player, you get a really much more intimate view of the game system and world setting. As a GM, you are really busy playing balance against multiple NPCs, large-scale factions, dramatic timing and interludes, etc.

As a player, you notice that one class really whups ass on another class, or that the Authority skill is both limited and very potent and spend time thinking as a player how you can best abuse it.

Playing or even running CP2020 five or fifteen years ago and then going over the PnP and char/NPC development is one thing. Doing it every week just recently is another and quite eye opening.

Yes. I think those players who think Authority is limited have never met a... less than perfectly ethical police officer. Lies, threats of incarceration for minor offences, or simply the threat of constant harassment/attention can achieve quite serious results if successful. Most of my old characters would have preferred to be shot at or have a netrunner mess with their credit rating than have a cop breathing down their neck. Hell, when's the last time any player did their taxes accurately? That's how they got Capone in the end...

Also down with what Chris has to say (as per usual). I've been replaying the early parts (read: before unpatched becomes unplayable) of Vampire: Bloodlines, and they did a fine job most of the time in that game. It's really only the long fighty bits/boss fights where being a hardcase is truly dominant, the rest makes you have to choose some specialisations. Persuade, intimidate, obfuscate/sneak, dementation, hacking, lockpicking etc. Looking through walkthroughs, one would have to plan every bit of character growth in order to do everything "Perfectly", but almost everything can still be done. This is what happens when players writing the game can make a huge difference.

Just going the Shadowrun Returns route, where you hire the right guys and it doesn't matter what class you are is more frustrating than rewarding, as things still get done, but not by you. I'm still shirty over how pointless netrunning was in a cyberpunk future in that game :/

Still, some of my best runs as a player involved out-of-the-box use of interesting characters and roles, and each game wherein I achieved my goals, I could have achieved them differently with different roles. Like using a Nomad to put pressure on a bar owner for info, by promising in return that he wouldn't have weeks on end of Nomads starting fights in his bar. Just one or two, and never the same ones, and in a month the bar would be known as a roughneck dive. He saw it our way in the end. Sure, a netrunner might write a bot to make for terrible reviews to stream in, or call down weekly health and safety inspections. A fixer might offer something in return that the guy needs. A Solo might run a few drive-bys, a medtechie spread an innocuous but lingering virus, etc etc etc...

In some cases, such wins turn into losses down the road, and sometimes set you up for glory. The point is, the job gets done, and done your way. Which, really, is the heart of true Role Playing in my far less than humble opinion.
 
It's worth noting, though, that CP2077 is designed as a SP game, not MP or MMO. They've said they plan to have MP in the game, but not to waht extent. It is being built as an SP game.

Well, that makes it mostly a single player game then. Too bad, as RPGs are usually about multiplayer, and interacting with other players is content in itself. MMOs offer a platform for creating new content for the players whereas a single player game is usually just published and thats it, a new version might come or not.

So the Team consists of You and some NPCs. It doesn't really matter if the techie is worthless in combat if he's an NPC. As a player, that's an issue, of course, although a player gets to decide if he wants a combat Role before he starts and can hire NPCs to make up the gap.

Still with NPCs as my team mates it might end up a techie doing the same DPS as a solo, but with gadgets, which is kind of boring.

In an MMO it would be nice to be like a hacker and have other players to do the shooting... But then the hacker should get to do some things that the others can't. That is a problem in content creation, as if you create different content for different roles, you end up with 9 subgames. But hey, that is life. What are you going to do? Subgames are generally not very good ideas in the end, as subgames are not as good as real games. So you can't win. You end up creating a fighting system with some other elements for other roles and that's it.

If the game was an MMO, then you would have a platform that evolves over time getting new content. You could evolve the game not upwards but sideways. There would be rather low max level of characters, but then a lot of other content. People wouldn't go after the next level from 1 to 100, but you would get more adventures.

It isn't very funny to be level 100 and kill all the lesser beings with just by walking close by them. Sure, if you become a monolithic monster then that is another level of game, but the stories could revolve around basic Cyberpunk adventures for a very long time without players getting to level 100. You could gather and lose stuff, but there would always be a next adventure.

Which reminds about not losing stuff in other MMOs. In other MMOs you really don't lose anything. Things might break, but you can go to nearest vendor to fix them and continue onwards. Where is the risk and the joy of not having lost your gear yet?

So, there could be max "level" of having a certain set of skills and gear over time, but you could lose stuff. There could also be a concept of dieing. In a usual MMO you just reappear somewhere if you died (angel wakes you up / you have endless clones / etc). It would be interesting choice of flavor, if in Cyberpunk you would have to create a new character if you died. That would bring some meaning to the game. Try to really survive. That would force the solos to hold back a bit. If there were a danger ahead, then you would need a hacker to scan the area, for example.

Such ironman mode would require a streamlined character creation mechanism for those who take more risks than others. Still, creating a new character wouldn't matter too much, as there wouldn't be 1 to 100 level levelling process. Everyone would be close to mortality anyways. "Level" 1 character can be shot dead with a rifle. In other MMOs you would need a "rifle of the dragon king +5000 armor piercing and +4500 extra damage" before a 100 level character dies. But here no one would be over powered with levels. You could get a tank from somewhere, but even a tank can be destroyed with rather normal weaponry.

Having played the PnP again recently, I am reminded of how OP the Solo is in combat. Or can be, anyway. Enough to make me question even having such a class, at least as it is designed in the PnP. the Role idea is still cool and very thematic, of course.

But a pro fighter is pro fighter. A computer nerd really isn't the same as a pro boxer, for example. Not even close. In fact, there is orders of magnitude of difference.
 
For fucks sake, as if we are having a shortage of crappy MMO's..

First, RPG games are not about multiplayer.. They never were.. NEVER..
Second, if a "game" doesn't have a decent story and content but has multiplayer, it is not a game, it is a pile of crap that you have to pay monthly subscription to play, for a game that you already bought.. It is a piece of trash, companies use to milk you out of your money..

Also, making suggestions like that, without even knowing what is the game even about is not the smartest thing to do..
 
For fucks sake, as if we are having a shortage of crappy MMO's..

First, RPG games are not about multiplayer.. They never were.. NEVER..
Second, if a "game" doesn't have a decent story and content but has multiplayer, it is not a game, it is a pile of crap that you have to pay monthly subscription to play, for a game that you already bought.. It is a piece of trash, companies use to milk you out of your money..

Also, making suggestions like that, without even knowing what is the game even about is not the smartest thing to do..


Well, PnP RPG is a bit more boring alone than with a bunch of friends and you as the GM. In my opinion. And my opinions are based on facts. And I am usually right. Usually always.

Paying for a subscription... Well, not all MMOs require monthly payment. There are also micro transactions, with which you can buy cosmetic and helpful additions.

Sure I can understand that people want their game and want to be able to play it as long as they like without having to .... pay again! But guess what? I have gotten bored with normal games, pretty much, because there are no other people there. Playing a single player game is like reading a book. But why play a single player game when you can connect with other people. We have the internet, might as well utilize it!

Would be fun to be able to be a GM in an MMO.
 
Well, PnP RPG is a bit more boring alone than with a bunch of friends and you as the GM. In my opinion. And my opinions are based on facts. And I am usually right. Usually always.

Paying for a subscription... Well, not all MMOs require monthly payment. There are also micro transactions, with which you can buy cosmetic and helpful additions.

Sure I can understand that people want their game and want to be able to play it as long as they like without having to .... pay again! But guess what? I have gotten bored with normal games, pretty much, because there are no other people there. Playing a single player game is like reading a book. But why play a single player game when you can connect with other people. We have the internet, might as well utilize it!

Would be fun to be able to be a GM in an MMO.

You cannot compare a PnP game with a video game.. PnP games lack luxuries video games can afford.. Basically with PnP, you have to play with other people because you don't have any other options.. (I don't remember having PC guided NPC option in PnP games) Playing with few people you know, does not constitute as multiplayer.. That would be co-op as best..

And your book example doesn't do you any favors.. They don't say "A good game is like a book" for nothing.. One would read a book for its story and nobody would like to talk with you while reading it.. Not everybody wants to connect with other people.. Some people just want to PLAY A GAME while PLAYING A GAME.. Threading games like chatrooms never a good idea..

And you do notice that there are quite a few abandoned and forgotten MMO's out there, never to be played again..
 
You cannot compare a PnP game with a video game.. PnP games lack luxuries video games can afford.. Basically with PnP, you have to play with other people because you don't have any other options.. (I don't remember having PC guided NPC option in PnP games) Playing with few people you know, does not constitute as multiplayer.. That would be co-op as best..

I can't compare a PnP game with a video game except to some extent, but you are right. I am playing even single player video games more than PnP games.

Still, nowadays I play more MMO games than SP games. How about that? It is not always so that you "have" to play with other players in PnP. Often it is that you "want" to play with others. I mean, PnP games were invented for multiplayer experience.

In the old times there were nothing to do for a bunch of friends. So, those people got a board game and started playing it. After that, something new was invented: PnP-games. You don't need a board necessarily. You can have a set of rules and guides, dice, and a GM. Hooray, that was something revolutionary. And so the bunch of friendses all over started playing together.

One day a shy guy buys a rule book of a PnP game. The guy didn't have any friends, so he was sad. He couldn't play the game.

Well actually there are single player PnP game books, too. They have choices what to do next and a paragraph number to jump to based on the choice.

But still, when you have the internet, and a random dungeon finder tool, you have insta "friends". And you can join a guild. And if you do have friends, you can call them over to join you in the game.

And your book example doesn't do you any favors.. They don't say "A good game is like a book" for nothing.. One would read a book for its story and nobody would like to talk with you while reading it.. Not everybody wants to connect with other people.. Some people just want to PLAY A GAME while PLAYING A GAME.. Threading games like chatrooms never a good idea..

I have read books. I have played single player games. Now I want to play multiplayer games.

When I have played MMOs, I don't make strong relationships with other players. I use or join pick up groups and get the job done. But it is way more challenging and entertaining to have random dudes in my team than having to bear with computer AI guided NPCs that never do anything surprising. I mean, NPCs do get stuck once in a while or all the time depending on the computer game, but it is not surprising. I know that they will get stuck eventually and such. It is totally different with real players. And there is always the option to get into a better team / make friends and so on.

I really don't care what a techie NPC can or cannot do, because I am not playing the game if it is SP. It is very likely that you won't see me anymore here, except maybe when I try the SP game out anyway for a while and post tons of bugs the devs are bound to program. Devs always program bugs.

And you do notice that there are quite a few abandoned and forgotten MMO's out there, never to be played again..

Yes, but there are also many SP games that some people do not play.

I have not played either Witcher 1 nor 2 at all.
 
Well, that makes it mostly a single player game then. Too bad, as RPGs are usually about multiplayer, and interacting with other players is content in itself. MMOs offer a platform for creating new content for the players whereas a single player game is usually just published and thats it, a new version might come or not.
_____________________

If the game was an MMO, then you would have a platform that evolves over time getting new content. You could evolve the game not upwards but sideways. There would be rather low max level of characters, but then a lot of other content. People wouldn't go after the next level from 1 to 100, but you would get more adventures.
RPG's are NOT usually about Multiplayer interaction:

Fallout 3
Fallout New Vegas
The Witcher
The Witcher 2
Mass Effect
Mass Effect 2
Dragon Age Origins
Dragon Age 2
Skyrim
Alpha Protocol
Deus Ex: Human Revolution

All of these are fairly recent RPG's, none of them even have a multiplayer capability.

There is plenty of room for additional content in Single Player games, they don't have to be MMO's to recieve that. Aside from the obvious DLC option, singleplayer and general multiplayer has an additional option that MMO's do not have; the Modding Community!

Also, singleplayer games have the added benefit of allowing a player to take their time and enjoy the game at their own pace, without getting butt fucked or whined at by a 12 year old with self esteem issues

Oh, and they get better stories and less grinding than MMO's.

Which reminds about not losing stuff in other MMOs. In other MMOs you really don't lose anything. Things might break, but you can go to nearest vendor to fix them and continue onwards. Where is the risk and the joy of not having lost your gear yet?
Play EVE Online...

But a pro fighter is pro fighter. A computer nerd really isn't the same as a pro boxer, for example. Not even close. In fact, there is orders of magnitude of difference.
Sard was refering to the fact that a Solo will have the advantage in any form of combat against another type of opponent 99.99% of the time. That is because they, (almost,) always end up being able to go first. The role is too specialised and too good at what it does.

Oh, and please do explain how one person should be able to make a specific bullet, fired from a specific weapon, at a specific location on a specific target to more damage than someone else. Last time I checked a bullet tend to be pretty indescriminate...
Hence why no role should every have 'DPS bonuses' or 'Tanking bonuses', (as if the armour works better because someone has a special skill...)

Yet another pile of crap supplied by poorly concieved game mechanics. But thats just my opinion, of course...

Paying for a subscription... Well, not all MMOs require monthly payment. There are also micro transactions, with which you can buy cosmetic and helpful additions.
Very true. But then the majority of the ones that don't require a sub just plain suck, (or they failed at being subscription based - D&D online, LOTRO online, etc - and were forced to rely on micro transactions for their survival.)

Wars may be a bit, er, militant, in his approach on this matter, but he is in the right ball park. The game that CDPR are trying to create would suck if it was an MMO. An MMO based on Cyberpunk 2020 could work, and it could be a lot of fun, (and I actually look forward to it one day,) but not this one.

Name one MMO with real depth, where you feel a connection with your character, where they develop a personality and the world around you is full, rich and immersive... (If you try to pass off WOW as one, I will go TAKEN on your ass! - "I will find you and I will kill you...")
The story in most MMO's, (if they have one at all...) is often bland and uninspired

Now, as 2077 has been confiormed as a Single Player game with Multiplayer Elements, for the love of everything 8-bit, drop the MMO angle, please!
 
Okay, people have called for me to rant on my one issue with MMO's: Humans.

There are very few people who I'd not want to play pen and paper RPG's with. However, these few people seem to be those who are them majority of MMO players. These people care not for story, or substance, or character interaction, or anything I enjoy in an RPG. The nature of MMO's isn't anywhere near realistic enough. They need to constantly invent ways to force player interaction and co-operation, as everyone sees them as a competitive, not collaborative experience.

I own several games that, if not being purely multiplayer, then certainly heavily encourage multiplayer, like Borderlands 2 and Torchlight 2. As one gets deeper and further into the game, the ability to do well playing solo degrades. So I have to stop playing them long before "endgame". Why? No, it's not because I hate people (I am working on getting better) but because of human nature. Give anyone one degree of separation from the consequences of their actions, and they tend to become jerks. Example:


The end result is kind of always like some fantasy wild west, wherein everyone is a sociopath who's happy to rob everyone else blind for the bonuses a new level of loot will bring. Very, very few MMO's manage this problem adequately, the best I ever found was DDO online, which has it's own, different set of retardation issues, mostly involving the requirement to memorise enough info to write a thesis on in order to be even adequate at "end game".

All that, and, well, what are the motivations? In a good CRPG, my motivation is to experience the story and overcome obstacles. In an MMO, it's all about the ding and bling. I'm on a pension because I can't yet work, so I'm sure as shit not going to start paying to have one (again).

In conclusion: There are many, many really fucking good reasons this isn't an MMO, and the fact that the good folks at CDPR don't spend their weekends eating lead paint under powerlines and playing ball on the freeway is probably high on that list. "I like MMO's, so make everything an MMo plz kthxbai" is not so much an arguement or even a stable opinion so much as a childish desire to have the greater world one doesn't comprehend dumbed-down to your level. I'm imagining Eminem's production of Hamlet (entitled Homeboy), Metallica recording the metal version of Swan Lake, or the Readers Digest abridged Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson. Just because the same people who write official Star Wars books also write WOW fiction doesn't make it art. This is a serious attempt at a work of art, and you want to demand it has a cock and balls drawn on it. Stop.
 
'K guys, you've made your point, so lets avoid the ad hominem attacks please.

(And anyway, if Eminem did a production of Hamlet, I'd buy tickets)
 
'K guys, you've made your point, so lets avoid the ad hominem attacks please.

(And anyway, if Eminem did a production of Hamlet, I'd buy tickets)

There was no "You" in that post, just a lot of "They", so no ad hominem card played. I was careful about that, though I will happily concede nastiness on my part.

And okay, Eminem was a bad call. I'd watch that too. Maybe The Situation's Macbeth? Starring Snooki as Lady Macbeth?
 
There was no "You" in that post, just a lot of "They", so no ad hominem card played. I was careful about that, though I will happily concede nastiness on my part.

Yes, dear, and nit-picking to avoid moderators NEVER works. NEVER, I tell you. Because contrary to popular opinion I am not an AI who can be subverted by such things.

And okay, Eminem was a bad call. I'd watch that too. Maybe The Situation's Macbeth? Starring Snooki as Lady Macbeth?

OK, I'll grant you that.
 
I hate you all. See, I used "you"! And hate. And all.

Anyway.

The gap between PnP RPG and CRPG is big and it usually DOES revolve around the SP/MP difference. I find it ironic that we often like to settle in for a pleasant solo game of role-playing on our computer and the social role-play via an MMO or something similar is so shallow as to be non-existent.

So now you role-play with an audience of one - yourself. Not how it started, that's for sure.

Some of the MMO balance issues are relevant, though. You see them pop up in RPGs fairly often - "will I be gimped if I pick X class?" "Can Y class do everything game that Fighter class can do?" "What's the best build for a Vanguard/Alchemist/Whatever"?

I like to think of balance much as Chris does - not everyone is good at the same things, but every class should be able to get the job done in their own way.

Sadly, this is rarely true in CRPGs and you don't see many of them offering this depth of gameplay. Oh, well.
 
I hate you all. See, I used "you"! And hate. And all.

Anyway.

The gap between PnP RPG and CRPG is big and it usually DOES revolve around the SP/MP difference. I find it ironic that we often like to settle in for a pleasant solo game of role-playing on our computer and the social role-play via an MMO or something similar is so shallow as to be non-existent.

So now you role-play with an audience of one - yourself. Not how it started, that's for sure.

Some of the MMO balance issues are relevant, though. You see them pop up in RPGs fairly often - "will I be gimped if I pick X class?" "Can Y class do everything game that Fighter class can do?" "What's the best build for a Vanguard/Alchemist/Whatever"?

I like to think of balance much as Chris does - not everyone is good at the same things, but every class should be able to get the job done in their own way.

Sadly, this is rarely true in CRPGs and you don't see many of them offering this depth of gameplay. Oh, well.

But some do, and do it well. Including offering profoundly different playstyles. VTM:B did a fantastic job of that (If only they were half as good at fighting off ridiculous deadlines), and I'm sure there are other examples. We do have ways of doing this, it's not terra incognita. The only issue that has ever got in the way is the trying to please everyone deal. The trick is, pleasing people not with what they whinge about not wanting, but by working out what kinds of things might please them, and novel, yet stable ways of supplying those wants. Like FPS games? Solo, check. Prefer social stuff, with a bit of blood, sweat and tears? Rockerboy, check. Want the dazzling high-life? Corp, check. All these things exist in the real world, and it runs just fine. Sure people hate other people, but no-one has the ability to wipe those they don't like off the map. The Greenies hate the Corporations, who hate them right back. Without that tension, no drama would ensue, and without drama, without highs and lows, there is no Cyberpunk.
 
Not really. You couldn't talk your way through VTMB. You could mostly sneak through it. You didn't have deranged/faithful minions to deploy. You couldn't bypass whole fights or sections with clever puzzle solving or conversation.

That kind of deep gameplay is pretty rare. Torment had it a bit, but mucho combat was still necessary.

Mostly we're lucky to get a stealth/non stealth letha/non lethal option set. Which is typically weighted towards stealth being harder and lethal combat being more efficient.

You can have Cyberpunk without drama or tension or highs and lows. A good piece of art can do it, or a certain song. Kind of a boring game, but those qualities are hardly endemic to Cyberpunk.
 
I hate you all. See, I used "you"! And hate. And all.

Anyway.

The gap between PnP RPG and CRPG is big and it usually DOES revolve around the SP/MP difference. I find it ironic that we often like to settle in for a pleasant solo game of role-playing on our computer and the social role-play via an MMO or something similar is so shallow as to be non-existent.

So now you role-play with an audience of one - yourself. Not how it started, that's for sure.

Some of the MMO balance issues are relevant, though. You see them pop up in RPGs fairly often - "will I be gimped if I pick X class?" "Can Y class do everything game that Fighter class can do?" "What's the best build for a Vanguard/Alchemist/Whatever"?

I like to think of balance much as Chris does - not everyone is good at the same things, but every class should be able to get the job done in their own way.

Sadly, this is rarely true in CRPGs and you don't see many of them offering this depth of gameplay. Oh, well.

It's mostly because it basically impossible to justify creating large systems and content that players might never use and a inefficient, expensive way to make a game when on a limited budget. one or two ways at most is the best you can hope for before you run in to bloat and from there broken mechanics and progress halting bugs.
 
It's mostly because it basically impossible to justify creating large systems and content that players might never use and a inefficient, expensive way to make a game when on a limited budget. one or two ways at most is the best you can hope for before you run in to bloat and from there broken mechanics and progress halting bugs.

It's true that adding layers of complexity is bad and brings a lot of work that means little in the end, but all game features are supposed to have from 2 to 4 ways to deal with everything.
Other than that the arguments running in the thread are too many and mixed so whateves
 
RPG's are NOT usually about Multiplayer interaction:

And I have not played these:

Fallout 3
Fallout New Vegas
The Witcher
The Witcher 2
Mass Effect
Mass Effect 2
Dragon Age Origins
Dragon Age 2
Alpha Protocol
Deus Ex: Human Revolution

I have bought this, but only after very long time it came out and was cheap: Skyrim. But then I got bored with it. Though one reason was that it doesn't render fast enough so my eyes get numb after a while.

Currently I play mostly PlanetSide 2 and little bit others like GW2 and Eve. I got bored about many other games too. Single player games don't have continuity in them. There is no reason to develop character in SP game, because if I quit the game, nothing is left behind - there are no other players to leave behind.

All of these are fairly recent RPG's, none of them even have a multiplayer capability.

Skyrim the MMO? Sounds familiar? MMO is the next step! EverQuest Next? Sounds familiar? It is an MMO! There is no EverQuest the single player game.

There is plenty of room for additional content in Single Player games, they don't have to be MMO's to recieve that. Aside from the obvious DLC option, singleplayer and general multiplayer has an additional option that MMO's do not have; the Modding Community!

I have not used mods except like dps meters and boss fight alerts.

Also, singleplayer games have the added benefit of allowing a player to take their time and enjoy the game at their own pace, without getting butt fucked or whined at by a 12 year old with self esteem issues
Play EVE Online...

In Eve people are generally more nice to each other - inside a corp / alliance / coalition. And sure then there are pirates and betrayers, but hey, so there are such in real life too. What do you want? A game, where no one does anything bad to you? You want to live in Cyberpink?

Oh, and they get better stories and less grinding than MMO's.

Yes, but there should be more stories in MMOs. SWTOR has many stories where you can choose answers, though I admit they get boring after a while. But so do SP game stories get boring if not properly done. MMO stories might get repetitive as you need a lot of them for the grinds. But guess what, SP games don't have that many stories either and you can put couple of nice stories in MMOs, too. I played Crysis 1 and it was nice, but it ended after a weekend.

Oh, and please do explain how one person should be able to make a specific bullet, fired from a specific weapon, at a specific location on a specific target to more damage than someone else. Last time I checked a bullet tend to be pretty indescriminate...
Hence why no role should every have 'DPS bonuses' or 'Tanking bonuses', (as if the armour works better because someone has a special skill...)

Yet another pile of crap supplied by poorly concieved game mechanics. But thats just my opinion, of course...

A weapon does always the same amount damage if fired in same kind of condition. But the trick is to change the condition. If you haven't even seen a gun before, it takes time for you ponder what the thing is. Meanwhile, a pro gunfighter has resolved a fight. Ok, then you know what a gun is. But are you fast? How accurate are you? Can you even hit a person not to talk about shooting him in eg. the head? And what if the head moves? Moves fast? While you are shooting wildly around or trying to aim and shoot, the pro gunfighter has already killed four of his opponents.

This man can shoot two bullets at a time with a revolver into two different targets in 0,02 seconds. Without cybernetics.
Worlds fastest revolver shooter. Fires two shots but sounds like one.

And the same goes wearing armor. If you just buy your first armor, you don't know how to move with it properly etc. A pro fighter knows his armor, what is possible with it and won't try something that doesn't work hence saving time, knows tricks like how to do ukemis with the armor on, knows how to adjust power to muscles to move with the armor, etc.

Also this video is one of my favorites, a fast unarmed fighter:
Fast Fighter

Humans are capable of doing incredible things that you don't even believe before you see. And that is where skill points are counted.

Here is a strong 7-year old boy, does handstand pushups:
Strong 7 years old boy

Tricking is always nice, if you can dodge or something, you don't even need armor:
PEOPLE ARE AWESOME 2012-["Tricking" Version]

Wars may be a bit, er, militant, in his approach on this matter, but he is in the right ball park. The game that CDPR are trying to create would suck if it was an MMO. An MMO based on Cyberpunk 2020 could work, and it could be a lot of fun, (and I actually look forward to it one day,) but not this one.

I don't understand why Cyperpunk 2077 wouldn't work as an MMO.

Name one MMO with real depth, where you feel a connection with your character, where they develop a personality and the world around you is full, rich and immersive... (If you try to pass off WOW as one, I will go TAKEN on your ass! - "I will find you and I will kill you...")
The story in most MMO's, (if they have one at all...) is often bland and uninspired

Cyperpunk 2077 the MMO? Well, one should make a good MMO. Everything else is just an excuse.

Now, as 2077 has been confiormed as a Single Player game with Multiplayer Elements, for the love of everything 8-bit, drop the MMO angle, please!

Never.
 
It bugged me as well. Since themeparks 2.0 are getting popular some rpg devs might consider the trend in the near future.
 
Yeah, CP2077 will not be an MMO. Or a role-playing RTS. Or a Tower Defense RPG. You may wish it otherwise, but it's not happening. Check out Wildstar for your gun-tech-MMO needs, perhaps. I'm looking forward to trying it. Before it sucks. After about a month.

Roles in CP2077 are not DPS/Tank/Heals. That's not how Roles work. They are ideals of character archetypes in a cyberpunk world, designed for flavour as much or more than function.
 
And I have not played these:

Fallout 3
Fallout New Vegas
The Witcher
The Witcher 2
Mass Effect
Mass Effect 2
Dragon Age Origins
Dragon Age 2
Alpha Protocol
Deus Ex: Human Revolution

I have bought this, but only after very long time it came out and was cheap: Skyrim. But then I got bored with it. Though one reason was that it doesn't render fast enough so my eyes get numb after a while.

Currently I play mostly PlanetSide 2 and little bit others like GW2 and Eve. I got bored about many other games too. Single player games don't have continuity in them. There is no reason to develop character in SP game, because if I quit the game, nothing is left behind - there are no other players to leave behind.



Skyrim the MMO? Sounds familiar? MMO is the next step! EverQuest Next? Sounds familiar? It is an MMO! There is no EverQuest the single player game.



I have not used mods except like dps meters and boss fight alerts.



In Eve people are generally more nice to each other - inside a corp / alliance / coalition. And sure then there are pirates and betrayers, but hey, so there are such in real life too. What do you want? A game, where no one does anything bad to you? You want to live in Cyberpink?



Yes, but there should be more stories in MMOs. SWTOR has many stories where you can choose answers, though I admit they get boring after a while. But so do SP game stories get boring if not properly done. MMO stories might get repetitive as you need a lot of them for the grinds. But guess what, SP games don't have that many stories either and you can put couple of nice stories in MMOs, too. I played Crysis 1 and it was nice, but it ended after a weekend.



A weapon does always the same amount damage if fired in same kind of condition. But the trick is to change the condition. If you haven't even seen a gun before, it takes time for you ponder what the thing is. Meanwhile, a pro gunfighter has resolved a fight. Ok, then you know what a gun is. But are you fast? How accurate are you? Can you even hit a person not to talk about shooting him in eg. the head? And what if the head moves? Moves fast? While you are shooting wildly around or trying to aim and shoot, the pro gunfighter has already killed four of his opponents.

This man can shoot two bullets at a time with a revolver into two different targets in 0,02 seconds. Without cybernetics.
Worlds fastest revolver shooter. Fires two shots but sounds like one.

And the same goes wearing armor. If you just buy your first armor, you don't know how to move with it properly etc. A pro fighter knows his armor, what is possible with it and won't try something that doesn't work hence saving time, knows tricks like how to do ukemis with the armor on, knows how to adjust power to muscles to move with the armor, etc.

Also this video is one of my favorites, a fast unarmed fighter:
Fast Fighter

Humans are capable of doing incredible things that you don't even believe before you see. And that is where skill points are counted.

Here is a strong 7-year old boy, does handstand pushups:
Strong 7 years old boy

Tricking is always nice, if you can dodge or something, you don't even need armor:
PEOPLE ARE AWESOME 2012-["Tricking" Version]



I don't understand why Cyperpunk 2077 wouldn't work as an MMO.



Cyperpunk 2077 the MMO? Well, one should make a good MMO. Everything else is just an excuse.



Never.

*Yawn*

When you can construct an argument that can't be easily reduced to "But I like it this way!", I'll bother deconstructing it. Yours is a taste position, not a mechanics/style/function one. CDPR think that the Cyberpunk world works better for single player, so the focus can be on story, rather than constant buff/nerf balancing. The vast majority of CP2020 players would agree that, even if they might quite like an MMO of the same world, they'd like to play the single player game being offered. You can keep at it all you want, but this isn't a Bioware forum, where devs will happily swallow their principles and design ethics just to pander to the loudest complaints. Trust me, I already tried :p
 
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