Should certain Roles be eliminated?

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Should certain Roles be eliminated?

I really cannot feasibly see any way a video game, regardless of which takes precedence, the world, or the story, can possibly feature all 9 roles as playable choices, and still end up with a single compelling story line that is long enough to satisfy either the Open World fans, or the Narrative driven fans.

The problem is simply this... even in the tabletop rpg, there are some roles that simply require a massive amount of work to bring in to a group for a campaign of any length.

In the interests of keeping things diverse, and covering as many careers as possible, they created Roles. But just like in real life, some of these roles are not compatible for long term play except under pretty specific circumstance.

In the Tabletop game, some of the standard roles can fit into just about any scenario.

Solo's obviously, because at their heart, they are just guys who can fight pretty well. Fixers can fit almost anywhere, everyone knows a guy who just has a knack for getting you something hard to find. Netrunners, who doesn't want a hacker on their team, no matter what the game is about. Techies... everyone needs to know a guy who can fix things. Medtech... because every group needs someone to patch up the wounds and boo-boos. And nomads tend to fit into almost any game by their very nature as drifters.

But Cops... Cops require the character to be employed. And them being a cop needs to be a major focus on the campaign. It's hard to drop a cop, for instance, into a game about organized crime, or an assassin team.... because the cop is expected to follow the law. Sure he can be a corrupt cop, or an undercover cop trying to bring down the group. But even if he is corrupt, he can't be hanging out with a bunch of thugs all the time, he has duties, responsibilities, and who he is seen with matters. If he is undercover, then he really isn't a cop for the purposes of the game, he is whatever role he is supposed to be pretending to be. By their nature for a long term campaign to work with cops as player characters, the game kinda has to revolve around that to a significant degree.

Medias fall into the same problem as cops, in that they work really well with the other roles, if the media is the focus of the game, but not really at all when they aren't. Criminals aren't going to want to be reported on because they are criminals... kinda obvious. But Cops aren't really going to want to be reported on either, because it hampers their ability to do their job.

Corps tend to fall into this category as well. If they are the one providing employment to the rest of whatever team they have, they work really well. But a Solo of his own volition isn't going to take a suit into the field with him, and really unless he is suicidal the corp shouldn't want to go in the first place. He hires people like the solo or the techie or whatever to these things so he doesn't have to.

Rockers. Why would a solo and Drug Dealer bring along a musician to a job? I mean the best he can do is provide a distraction by signing autographs or getting some people to "riot" for him... But if he just has a small band without label backing, how many people is he really going to be able to get to do that kind of thing... and how often. I listen to a lot of music,been to a lot of shows, but I have never been to a local bands show where the guys on stage could convince me to tie my own shoes, much less raise up in a mob and go rampaging down the street. And when they do gain the skill and influence to do such a thing, they are too big to just be doing their own thing. They will be on tour, promoting albums, and far removed from the worries of the streets.... not to mention they will now be held liable for incitement if they try anything like that. So again, for Rockers to work in your campaign, unless it is just a single adventure type thing, the story has to revolve around them pretty significantly.

In a video game the problems with roles get much much worse. Exponentially expounded if the character is limited to one Role.

Video games typically tell a story, from the singular view point of the player. Whether the story is a giant GTA or Fallout like world, or a more story driven narrative like Witcher or Deus Ex:HR. In a video game like this, combat is assumed to be a large part of the game. Even in most tabletops, it's assumed Combat will be part of the game... of course tabletop games can be played without combat entirely, but that is something that everyone involved has to be on the same page with, or the rules have to make explicit.

Combat can be left out entirely in video games as well, but I don't believe anyone here is under the illusion that Combat isn't going to be a major part of Cyberpunk 2077. Even if they would rather play a character that avoids it all costs.

Now here's the thing. Your Role is supposed to be your characters prime focus... what you do... your career as it were. A solo class in a video game is par for the course in these types of games. It is also assumed that Netrunners will be a major part of the game. Solo and Netrunner being represented by the main character are safe bets... no more needs to be said about them.

But like I said above... Cop only believably works under a pretty limited set of circumstances as detailed above. However all of these situations require being a police officer to be a major focus... that means reporting in, active police duties, superior officers checking up on you, making arrests,etc... That is a significant amount of extra game resources that would have to be dedicated to just one role, for it to be properly represented. Even in a single player game, it's asking a lot, and will certainly be drawing resources away from other areas of the game that would perhaps be better spent.

So maybe Cop has to go. (alternative idea at the end of post)

Corps and Medias have the same problems. These are full time jobs, that require a certain amount of narrative dedicated to them for the roles to be believable to the player. Eating up as many resources as the cop. Corps and Medias also are not expected to be active participants in combat... in fact participating in combat goes against the ethos of the Role. They are there to either document or avoid combat, but not join it.

They may have to be axed as well. Or possibly they could be Secondary Roles.

Fixers, Techs and Medtechs... depending on the game, focusing on their roles would not the resources taken up by the corporates, cops, and medias in terms of their employment, but worse, would take up far more resources by requiring the game to have mechanics and a mission plot line catered specifically to them. In the case of a fixer it would require an economy system, both buying and selling, as well as mechanic for meeting and maintaining contacts. With a techie it would require a system for maintenance, as mission narrative devoted to them repairing or building things. For medtechs, it requires a pretty detailed first aid and surgery mechanic, and definitely would require a mission narrative focused on them.

Again, they may have to be axed, or at best be treated as secondary Roles.

Nomads.... it pains me deeply to say this... but on the chance that there are not drivable vehicles in the game, or if there are no wasteland type areas outside the city, then the only thing nomads have going is their Tribe, which would require the ability to call in backup.... again, eating up resources. Nomads are my absolute favorite class, not least of which because they represent freedom in a world of oppression. But

They may have to go as well...or be made into a secondary class.

Which brings us to Rocker. This would be by far the most difficult class to bring into a game. It would require a detailed mechanic complete with concerts and band practices... Which would also mean it would require songs be written to be played by the character and his band. It would require a storyline not only dealing with the musical exploits of the character, but also of promoting themselves as musicians. As with the other Roles that should be dropped or made secondary, but more more so, there is no way to implement a rocker boy as the main protagonist into the same story missions a Solo main protagonist would undertake without becoming unbelievably trite and silly. It would only be extremely disappointing for both classes, or become a cartoon parody of them.

So Rockerboy should really just be dropped altogether. It doesn't even make sense as a secondary class.


Really, this leaves Solo and Netrunner as the only viable playable classes... with one challenging the fights head on, the other acting through remotes and via subterfuge and electronic combat, which could be handled the same as the solors combat, only in a wireframe world against computer representations of Black Ice and what not.

Allowing for secondary roles as listed above, would allow the game to sample the flavors of their roles, without devoting ridiculous amounts of resources to them.

The game could however go one more direction, even with the limited resources. Have two story paths... one for Cop, representing the law abiding path, and another for Solo, representing the criminal path. Of course cops could choose to act in a corrupt manner, and solo's could choose to be benevolent... And netrunners could either become secondary classes as well, or be neutral in their Plot Path.

But there you go. I know the post was ridiculously long. I know people aren't going to like... but if you don't like it, please, don't just crap on the ideas, suggest your own way of handling them, and think about the game more than just in terms of what you want from it.
 
I do believe that certain classes should be dumped if there are no good ideas on how to implement them in the game. I think the problem is at its worst with rockers, who by now really feel dated in both style and concept. Unless you mean to create something like this :D

As for the other classes, I think it's possible to implement all of them provided each class has it's unique storyline. I recall in the witcher games even very cliched quests like "kill 5 monsters and bring me their heads for a reward" felt fitting simply because the character you played was a monster hunter by trade. I believe that if you craft a convincing story, any class might work as regardless of their background you can imagine all sorts of scenarios that would force your protagonist to do stuff.

That said, if we can't have unique storylines and the devs do not have a good notion about how or why certain classes should be implemented, I'd rather they were omitted altogether than handled in a way that feels unconvincing, forced or shallow.

In other words, don't put stuff in the game just for the sake of it. Put it there if you've got a reason.
 
I agree, some of the classes seem hard to implement. Writing for some of them would feel like a pain in the ass.

They should concentrate on Solos in the criminal underground (Gangs, fixers, netrunners) and its counterpart the pigs of Night City. For the pacifist playthrough they can somehow combine rockerboy, medias, with a little netrunning here and there for them. So what you're suggesting is having no labels put on us? To just let us live within the city and see what is going on under the surface with a sky tuned to a dead channel.
 
Actually I can think of some very delicious backstabbing, double-dealing, labirynthine scenarios for a corp for example. The list of classes it would be hard to write for isn't all that long.
 
Actually I can think of some very delicious backstabbing, double-dealing, labirynthine scenarios for a corp for example. The list of classes it would be hard to write for isn't all that long.

I can think of stories for each of the classes, the problem is coming up with a storyline that would work for them all, with each one being the main protagonist.

Having 9 full and complete story lines for each class, ranging from the Solo with 2 guns and a knife, to the rockerboy with hairspray and a guitar... is just not going to happen in a way that is going to make everyone happy.

Hence my suggestions of dropiing every role but solo and cop... have a storyline that can be played from either side of the law... and making all the other roles secondary... except rockerboy, which should be ditched completely.
 
Nah, you've got a thousand roles to play in New Vegas, don't see why the nine from Cyberpunk should be that impossible. Then again I don't see why we have to have either open world or narrative heavy, just have both. Though admittedly I don't want GTA or Skyrim clones, lifeless crap where nothing you do matters. Just have a handful of quests, and different approaches for each role. Begin as nothing, and grow into your roles as you ascend Night City, become what you do whatever that may be.
 
Glurk! No. I'm pretty sure you're setting this up as a prelude to your much-better argument in favour of dropping Roles altogether.

Anyway, a half-decent writer can come up with a story line involving any of the Roles, because it's not a Role-centric main storyline, it's a Cyberpunk main storyline. Roles are sidequests.

It's the Role mechanic that changes how in-game solutions are handled and I already covered that by defining them as either Physical/Technical/Social solutions.

As long as you have a way to talk your way into/shoot your way into/hack your way into and through the obstacle, you have the toolkit for anyone to do the job.

It's just that different Roles have an easier time of using different Tool. Some hybrids - like Cop - are pretty good at more than one Tool Category, such as Physical/Social in a Cop's case.
 
I can think of stories for each of the classes, the problem is coming up with a storyline that would work for them all, with each one being the main protagonist.
...why have a "one size fits all" story arc?

Provided CDPR has the resources, why not tell different sides of a greater overall story arc? Depending on the role you select, some of the story missions / checkpoints will overlap, and some will tell the story soley from the selected Role's perspective.

(Operative phrase: provided CDPR has the resources. I appreciate that writing / coding a game out this way is a bigger task than, say, the "one size fits all" missions of Borderlands.)

I'm pretty sure you're setting this up as a prelude to your much-better argument in favour of dropping Roles altogether.
^^ also, this. You sly fox, you. ;-p
 
I should amend my statement - I'm not sure Wisdom wants to drop ROLES, per se, he just wants them to be less-exclusionary. We share that. Special Abilities limited to one Role suck, as an idea. Always have, really. DnD hold over.

Cops get Combat Sense and Authority. Fixers might have Charismatic Awareness as well as Streedeal.

Just not as high ( I like ratios, myself) as the Primary SA.
 
...anyone ever play that Diablo-lite clone, Fate? Or, alternately, the Fallout 3 / New Vegas skill system.

Is that the suggestion? All skills / trees / etc. open, and the player just builds out their character any way they want?

While I do like the "archetype" system present in most RPGs, I do also see the value in being able to build out your skillset as you choose.

I *do* think there's still a logic that applies to Roles / Archetypes / Character Classes / etc., though. If a person has devoted themselves to learning Linux / Unix, and specializes in exploiting the kernel in someone else's system, I wouldn't call 'em a MMA fighter, *especially* if they've neglected the physical end of what it requires to be a MMA fighter.

This is not to say that someone who excels at Linux / Unix *can't* study MMA. It's just that I wouldn't expect PCs to be able to excel in multiple areas, which I think fits your argument of appropriate ratios, depending on Primary Special Ability.

I'm fine with the idea of a base "skill package", depending on your Role.
 
I Agree that certain roles are problematic. The story setups from Cop, to Rocker, to media differ so radically we are back at the same problem I had with your other thread, that of implementing unique story lines for each role. This may be where CDPR and Mike need to bend the rules. They could come up with new roles - which I doubt they'd do, cause the roles in CP are quite unique - or they have a unifying story feature that places all roles in the same situation, ala commander Shepard in Mass Effect. No matter your role there, you still work for the alliance, and for a common goal. But I don't want that for this game. The truth is, I want each role to have different story goals, if not entirely different story arcs. Perhaps each role can solve his own problems along the same arc, but in different ways. The Solo takes out a leading corp for "evil-tech". The media exposes him. The cop brings him to justice. They are all working on the same overall problem within the same story arc. Gah,,,even that sounds unfeasible.

All I know is Rockerboys should get canned.
 
Rockerboys provide the "glamour" to Cpunk that other Roles don't have. They are style, fashion, charisma. They can make a firefight unnecessary, get you a MUCH better pay rate for a job and even ensure you aren't sniped at the end - no one wants to blow up even a moderately famous rockerboy, brings Medias like flies to...yeah.
 
In the various discussions of whether Roles should be phased out, it seems that the repeating theme is that particular individuals can't imagine how Role (x) (...or Rockerboys, specifically, if we're being real with it...) would fit into a video game RPG.

Personally, I can think of LOTS of scenarios to fit various Roles in to play. Doesn't mean everyone is going to want to play 'em, though. Just as in fantasy RPGs, some people have a definite preference to what they play (fighters, casters, rogues, etc.)

Personally, I want to play through ALL of the classic Roles, at least once. And I want my Rockerboy to be a DJ. =D

Even if Sardukhar isn't convinced that DJs are Rockerboy material. Ha.
 
In years of..blah blah, you get the message. Anyway, we've almost always had a Rockerboy in our campaigns. Memorable ones included more than one of the crazy, fame-grabbing bastards. And not one a DJ!

Rockerboys are great fun. Refs grin happily when players roll them in our games. Craziness fodder.

We had a crew that was mostly Rockerboys, Media and Techs. It was...nuts. Hilariously fun, though.

Not that I've ever played one. Are you kidding?! I like living!
 
money talks. Doesn't matter what you were or want to be. If a paycheck is involved, you evolve or learn to love kibble choomba.
 
Every time I try to picture a Rocker in a firefight, I always flash back to that Johnny Cash-themed assassin from the 2004 Punisher movie. I'd play the hell out of a character like that in a video game. Although in all fairness, he was really more of a Solo posing as a Rocker.
 
I would prefer the roles remain in the game, or be present through some means in the setting.

Why?

Because they explore various parts of the setting differently, how people deal with the cyberpunk world.

I can always experience the same story of a Solo, Cop, or Netrunner in any other game, but a Media, or Rockerboy?
 
One of the flaws in CP2020 is that it lends itself to "80s action movies" a little too well. True, if Refs are hardcore about implementing things like limb damage criticals, stun/shock and heal times, the 80s feel goes bye bye very fast. But many GMs let those things slide because the players are having a shoot-em-up-good time.

Problem is, you then have a game that is mostly about shooting, stabbing and the gear that supports that. Pretty one-dimensional and a waste of a lovely, morally complex setting.

So I hope the non-combat Roles are emphasised, not reduced.
 
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