Should certain Roles be eliminated?

[wisdom000]

I would prefer the roles remain in the game, or be present through some means in the setting.

Why?

Because they explore various parts of the setting differently, how people deal with the cyberpunk world.

I can always experience the same story of a Solo, Cop, or Netrunner in any other game, but a Media, or Rockerboy?

I would very much like for all the roles to be present, either as secondary Role options, or regardless as major NPC's.

However, the reality is, that trying to implement all the roles in a game as playable would require each Role to have their own varied and resource consuming series of mechanics and animations. Rockers above all, as they would also require original songs (which becomes a nightmare on resources especially if the characters are voiced... that's a song for each voice, and no one would be happy with a rocker with just one song.)

So if you try to do this with all the characters, you are going to end up with a really short, and disappointing game, because the resources are used up before the game even begins.

You could go the "crazy street poet/ranting instigator" route for Rockerboy, andthen he would only take up as much reasources as the other classes, which are still considerable... but then the name would confuse people, and I dont know how many people would want to play a Rocker who prime focus wasn't tied to his music.

Every time I try to picture a Rocker in a firefight, I always flash back to that Johnny Cash-themed assassin from the 2004 Punisher movie. I'd play the hell out of a character like that in a video game. Although in all fairness, he was really more of a Solo posing as a Rocker.

The best I can come up with for Rockers as a main character in the game would be something like Rock and Rule... but again that requires special concerts for the characters, special animations, special mechanics all around. And what if you don't want a guitar rocker, but want to be a drummer, or a sax player, or want to play the xylophone....

There are lots of examples of Rockers in Cyberpunk media... Priss and Vision in Bubblegum Crisis, but the reality was that they were both Solo's with musical talents. Ellen Aim from Streets of Fire, Faith from Strange Days, but they were supporting characters.

Now, its possible that the mechanics for rocker could be limited... they only sing/play instruments at recording studio, a night club, maybe a charity gig, radio interview... and then maybe a big concert at the end. But that stuff has to be tied to the game somehow, and the amount of resources the animations would consume could be staggering. As well as the budget concerns for the writing and recording original songs for the band to sing... unless its a cover band... but really, could you EVER actually respect a cover band.... some of them have a good gimmick, like Me First, Dick Cheese, and even UB40... but there is no point where a cover band is anything more than a gimmick at best, and more commonly just a bunch of sad ass posers who can't do their own thing. Even if you try to pass off non-original music as the bands songs, you have to have a library of male and female songs, in equal number... to be set aside exclusively as the in game bands.

In terms of resources and budget, Rocker boy is going to use exponentially more than all the other classes combined...

One of the flaws in CP2020 is that it lends itself to "80s action movies" a little too well. True, if Refs are hardcore about implementing things like limb damage criticals, stun/shock and heal times, the 80s feel goes bye bye very fast. But many GMs let those things slide because the players are having a shoot-em-up-good time.

Problem is, you then have a game that is mostly about shooting, stabbing and the gear that supports that. Pretty one-dimensional and a waste of a lovely, morally complex setting.

So I hope the non-combat Roles are emphasised, not reduced.

Cyberpunk 2020's Interlock system is rare in that it can be run straightforward as an incredibly realist (for a game) and dangerous combat experience, or it can be givn to awesome cinematics, both with ease, and with varying measures of each other. It's what I like to refer to a "cinematically realistic".

It's Jason Bourne, Raid: The Redemption, and John Woo's Beter Tomorrow II all rolled into one... it can be pedantically boring, or it can beover the top, but is best in the middle ground of cool without being silly, dangerous and brutal without being boring, fast paced and epic without being ridiculous.

I hope the non combat roles are emphasized as well. I truly do. Outside of Nomads and Solo's, Fixers are my favorite class. Even Nomad by itself is not a combat class, it's more of a dusty Fixer with survival skills and an affinity for vehicles. And Cops are my favorite campaign to run for, even if most of my players just really dislike them (as a whole, not just the game role).

This is why I still hold to the idea of a primary role, and a bunch of secondary roles.

But its already been beaten into my head that CDPR isn't capable of creating nine seperate stories, even with each episode only lasting 5 missions. So I am extremely baffled as to how people will think the entire game can revolve around the nine roles, without coming off as tritte or silly, or without telling 9 completely different stories from start to finish.

A lot of people seem to just be saying, I hope they can, or they should... or they are focusing on how to implement their one favored class... but no one yet has come up with a way to integrate them all, equally, for the duration of the game, and have it make any kind of sense within the story and with resource limitations.

 

[GuyNwah]

Kierkegaard said (with liberty in translation), "the crowd is a lie".

What "a lot of people seem to be saying" or "no one has yet come up with" is meaningless. They are not the developers. They do not know, unless they actually work for CDPR and know their development team and methods intimately, what the developers can and cannot do.

The developers have as good an understanding as anybody of what they want to do and can do with roles in the game, and they have the Source of All Good Bits on their team. If they are any good, and they are indeed, they have come up with a scheme for implementing roles that does not take into account the limitations that writers in this thread seem to think they would have.

"trying to implement all the roles in a game as playable would require each Role to have their own varied and resource consuming series of mechanics and animations." True, but why not? Do you know the resource limitations the developers are working with? No. Telling the developers "don't do this; you cannot implement it to our satisfaction" is being a bad customer even before the game is written.

 

[joedylan]

But its already been beaten into my head that CDPR isn't capable of creating nine seperat

I want them all but If they cant, they cant, and If they need to focus implementing a core of roles really well, thats fine.

 

[vexslasher]

I like the idea of the game having tons of different possibilities, it can really make or break a game sometimes depending upon how the roles go, for example if farcry 3 only had one option for the ending it could have made me hate that game for the dumb ending because, I really didn't like one of the endings however it has 2 possible endings and the other ending is pretty decent so it saved itself by having 2 different possible endings. The game could totally go by what the user wants to do for example they could have options to kill people or have them join your squad maybe, sorta like how it is in mass effect games however mass effect seems to not work very good for some of the multiple choice things where they just lead to the same outcomes anyways, I don't like it leading into the same outcome no matter what you do. I think it would be great to have tons of different outcomes, maybe by doing a mission for one person you have to kill someone else who would have given you a different mission so that you would know your choices are really making effects to the game. and having options to kill or save people or take hostages and things like that with characters in the game that are for mission pickups for a certain team of the game, and by killing one of them it could wipe out a few different missions but open up some other missions for another team in the game. And there could be many different teams like how in Saints row 3 has all the different gangs except you would have to option to work for any of those teams unless you killed too many of their people then that set of missions would be gone unless you killed off some of the people on the other teams then they could bring back the people that died before so that you could always have missions available to you no matter how many quest givers u killed.

 

[blank_redge]

I would very much like for all the roles to be present, either as secondary Role options, or regardless as major NPC's.

However, the reality is, that trying to implement all the roles in a game as playable would require each Role to have their own varied and resource consuming series of mechanics and animations. Rockers above all, as they would also require original songs (which becomes a nightmare on resources especially if the characters are voiced... that's a song for each voice, and no one would be happy with a rocker with just one song.)

Hm.

Now playing: Xerox and the Photocopies! All cover band.

CDPR could just license a bunch of existing material; as the player progresses, they could "discover" new material (which would be one of the licensed songs in the music files in the game.)

 

[gregski]

As I wrote in another thread, Rockerboy is a perfect role to be ditched.

First of all, lot of people agree that the mechanics that role needs are problematic and I haven't read one solid proposition for them yet. Noone seems to have a cohesive idea about poor Rockerboy...and I think it's good.

Good, because Rockerboy role is perfectly suited for being one of the main NPCs in the game. He might be the character that clips the story together, as he performs about fighting the system (which the player might be doing, according to interviews with CDPR regarding CP2077's story). CDPR's writing and dialogues could really shine with such a colourful and charismatic character with artistic soul. As many artists, he might have many different levels of his personality and sensitivity to be exposed during the story, which would create a deep, conflicted, maybe even tragic character.

So I'm all for ditching Rockerboy and turning him into an awesome NPC instead

 

[Krisk7]

I would prefer a skill tree / point system that will allow to go in every direction with some limitations/features:
1. Limited number of points would be a natural limiter.
2. Additinal rules between skills would not allow to go above certain levels. For instance you would be able to max only one tree (primary Role), but achieve considerable level in two other trees (secondary Role).
3. Quest lines would take into consideration your balance of skills.
4. Rockerboy should be a valid primary Role as most of us agree CP77 should have a non-lethal playthrough option.

 

[wisdom000]

As I wrote in another thread, Rockerboy is a perfect role to be ditched.

First of all, lot of people agree that the mechanics that role needs are problematic and I haven't read one solid proposition for them yet. Noone seems to have a cohesive idea about poor Rockerboy...and I think it's good.

Good, because Rockerboy role is perfectly suited for being one of the main NPCs in the game. He might be the character that clips the story together, as he performs about fighting the system (which the player might be doing, according to interviews with CDPR regarding CP2077's story). CDPR's writing and dialogues could really shine with such a colourful and charismatic character with artistic soul. As many artists, he might have many different levels of his personality and sensitivity to be exposed during the story, which would create a deep, conflicted, maybe even tragic character.

So I'm all for ditching Rockerboy and turning him into an awesome NPC instead

Yeah, I kinda agree... he really doesn't bring anything to the table that can't be done better by another class.

 

[lumber_jacck]

I don't think the same roles as in Cyberpunk 2020 will be present in this game. As you said, many of them are hard to implement and it would also be a bit futile. They should adapt the roles somehow.
Maybe you don't get to choose a role at the beginning, but you become a role in the first moments/missions of the game, choosing paths like choosing roles.

 

[TheCybersmily]

I would prefer a skill tree / point system that will allow ...

Rather not see that. Played WoW already, rather have something different.

 

[Sardukhar]

I just don't get why you guys have a problem with Rockerboys. Esepcially you, Wisdom. You must have run them before - surely they didn't always take the Limelight?

They are a social class - that's their skil set and what they excel at. So social situations, which any good Cpunk game has lots of, are their forte.

Their Special Ability is a bit odd, but just interpret it as similar to Vampire's Dominate, all the way up to Mass Dominate.

Charismatic Leadership lets the Rockerboy sway, i.e. influence, a certain number of people to do what he wants. You can go for the full-on rock/comic performance, but you can also adapt it so he adds it to any Cool-influenced ( or Empathy influenced, either is fine) skill check.

The lead character in Never Fade Away is a Rockerboy and he seems to be plenty useful.

 

[blank_redge]

...seems a good a time as any to plug what I just wrote, in relation to Rockerboys...

 

[Sardukhar]

" but because THEY BELIEVE! in The Message. You can get in to places and get up in faces, because what are those suits and their goons gonna do?? Put a bullet in your head? F?!K THOSE GUYS. They move on you, and a thousand of your people come down on their heads like a ton of angry Rippers, Wolvers, and auto-shotguns.

You are here to BREAK THEIR BACKS, and godd@mn it, you're gonna see it happen, or die trying in the process. "

Yeah, this. Very much this.

Rockerboy is one of THE iconic roles of CP2020, just because no other game did it at the time. Do any now?

And as Redge says above, "because THEY BELIEVE! in The Message". Absolutely.

 

[Lolssi83.811]

Personally I'd like to play some conversation heavy non-combat role, but unfortunately I just don't see it happening.

 

[Sardukhar]

Personally I'd like to play some conversation heavy non-combat role, but unfortunately I just don't see it happening.

I certainly hope it does! One of the BEST things about Planescape: Torment was that you could get so much done just from conversations. And CP2020 has many social classes. Again, one of the things that so strongly differentiated it from DnD when ti come out 25 years ago.

Our first campaign saw one Solo. ONE. Everyone else rushed to play the interesting new classes. Netrunner, Rockerboy(s), Tech(s), Corporate, Fixer, Nomad. No cops, though, that just seemed like pain on a stick.

Weirdly enough, when we got Cops, they almost always came in groups and the Ref made sure they were teamed. Heh.

Anyway, CDPR does great conversations, I think we have some fun dialogue to look forward to.

 

[wisdom000]

adding to the forum guide

 

[braindancer12]

some of the classes seem hard to implement.....

 

[d1am0ndback]

I'd want all the classes. From the rockerboys, to the fixers, to the corporates. They all present interesting playthroughs.

 

[spiderword]

Yeah I think too that some Roles are very difficoult to implement. I think a lot depends on which kind of Narration is setup.

 

[username_3644576]

The main problem with Rockerboys is that NPCs should react differently to their presence compared to other classes. Especially the high-level Rockerboys are certainly famous and then, if all the NPCs you get to know act amiably but otherwise have no idea who you are, the entire illusion of reality falls to pieces. You just see the seams of the game and realize it should be done differently, but the devs were unable to prepare different dialogues for all the NPCs. Unless you find some clever way of explaining why you're a rockerboy nobody knows (or recognizes).

And yeah, ability to enthrall entire crowds would be at best very tricky to implement. Especially since unlike vampire dominate, this is supposed to work without any magic or dark powers.

Last but not least there's a question of how much Rockerboy as a concept went out of date since the game's inception in 1980s. Back then, rock was still ruling the music world, leather clothes and funky hairstyles was something everyone could relate to. Right now they still can... when they think about realiy 30 years ago, not 60 years into the future. Contemporary Rockerboys are, by now, Rockeroldboys. Those who still do play rock have nowhere near the flair, the style, the clothes or the mohawks of the 1980s.

Of course, you can try to create a future game with a retro-vibe (Fallout did it after all). But then you have to stick to it and have some idea how it should work (in case of Fallout, and also Bioshock it was about the contrast between the overly sweet and innocent popular culture of 1950s and the brutal reality). Besides, that would be a massive change in artistic design compared to the PnP game. The latter was not meant to have a retro vibe. Remaking it that way just because the game got a bit old by now, doesn't feel right. That's my main gripe with Rockerboys.