Should certain Roles be eliminated?

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We need to start a Corp thread...

Done: http://www.cyberpunk.net/forum/en/threads/1529-Corp-Thread-Inc?p=30883#post30883
 
Yeah, sadly thats true. Some of the roles may have to become secondary. But those three are dear to many of us. It doesn't make sense to make a game majority cannot enjoy fully.

I say there should be four major roles in CP77. Solo, Cop, Corp, Nomad. All others could be secondary.

I guess it is mostly up to CDPR isn't it. I would love to see what they will come up with.

4-6 roles is what I expect. The only two I'm against are Rockerboy and Media. I just don't think they'd be conducive for a CRPG. I can't wait to see what roles we get...
 
You might think Rockerboy and Media are not "conducive to cRPGs" because of the typical way we think of these types of games, namely that combat in them is a must and every role needs to have some combat-related orientation.

One of the reasons I'm excited for CP77, despite the fact that I love action games and action in games, is the prospect of carrying out game objectives solely by dialogue and a choice/consequence gameplay. The Corp, Rockerboy, Media roles are perfect for a dialogue/c&c based gameplay.

I would axe Media in favour of Corp and Rockerboy- I think it's fairly possible for Corps/Rockerboys to assume a Media persona besides their own conventional persona.
 
4-6 roles is what I expect. The only two I'm against are Rockerboy and Media. I just don't think they'd be conducive for a CRPG. I can't wait to see what roles we get...

And this is why I want to see them. They are so rare in RPGs! Cyberpunk 2020 does a good job of encouraging and supporting them in game with sourcebooks and references, at least one useful skill, ( Resources) and so on.
 
4-6 roles is what I expect. The only two I'm against are Rockerboy and Media. I just don't think they'd be conducive for a CRPG. I can't wait to see what roles we get...

I'm sure they are going to find a way to handle this without upsetting many of us.. much..
 
I think we need to define exactly what makes a role what it is.


Solo - Combat guy, (soldier, mercenary, bodyguard, assassin, hitman, fighter) - anyone who makes their living via combat and fighting. In the PNP game their special ability is combat sense, it adds to initiative and awareness notice in combat situations.

Cop - (detectives, uniformed officers, corporate investigators, PI's, Bounty Hunters) - These are men and women who enforce the law. Their special ability is called Authority, and is somehwat of an abstract concept in the PNP game, but is treated as a measure of their position within the department, and the rest of the police force having their back as well as the law. (With Interlock Unlimited a Cop still gets Authority as a special ability, but instead of being an abstract concept it adds to Intimidate and Interrogate. With IU there is also the Role of Investigator, which covers the detectives, it's Special Ability is Deduction, and adds to Human Perception and Awareness Notice in investigative situations)

Media - (Journalist, reporter, radio dj, anchorman, correspondent) - You gather and report the news, the stories the city needs to hear, or what you think they need to hear anyway. A Medias special ability is called Credibility, which again is kind of an abstraction of how trustworthy they are perceived to be, the higher the trust the public has in them, the more people are willing to open doors, grant intervies, leak secrets... (Interlock Unlimite has Gredibility adding to Interview and Composition)

Corporate - (executive, accountant, small business owner, manager,) - You know money, you know tax laws, you know the stock market, you know supply and demand. You don't care what your company makes, as long as it makes money... You buy, sell, and trade like other people breathe. The Corporates special ability is Resources, an abstraction of the concept that within your company you can pull strings to make whatever you need happen... private car, team of body guards, a rival removed from the boardroom... In Interlock Unlimited Resources adds to Networking and Business Sense.

Techie - (mechanic, engineer, handyman, master craftsman) - You fix things, you build things, you keep things functioning. Techie's get the special Ability Jury Rig, which allows them to make makeshift repairs and constructions that won't last or look pretty, but will get the job done at elast for a while. In IU Techies get the Special Ability Adept, which adds to Jury Rig, now it's own skill, and any other tech skill.

Med Tech - (Doctor, Nurse, EMS, back alley doc) - you fix people. The Med-Techs special ability is Med Tech, which allows them to practice surgery... Interlock Unlimited give the bonus for Med Tech to First Aid and any other medical skill such as diagnose illness, cybertech, surgery (which is now it's own skill).

Netrunner - (Hackers, IT, Digital Security specialist, programmer) - The digital world is your domain. Netrunners get the special ability Interface, which allows them to directly jack into the net, hacking in virtual reality... in the original rules, Netrunners are the only ones who can do this. Interlock Unlimited has Interface giving it's bonus to 2 of the following skills, programming, system knowledge, and library search.

Fixer - (drug dealer, arms dealers, information broker, black marketeer) - You know where to get what people need, you sell it, or buy it, you are the criminal equivalent of a corporate, and you do your job with style. The Fixer knows people, thats his real ace in the hole, a list of contacts in every part of the city, on every cornor, from the glass and steel towers of corporate plaza to the broken down ruins of the combat zone. The Fixers Special Ability is Streatdeal, which allows him to have a vast network of contacts, to buy, sell, and trade goods and information through. In Interlock Unlimited it adds to the skills Streetwise and Persuasion/Fast Talk.

Nomad - (biker, gypsy, migrant worker, wanderer, smuggler, trucker) - You live on the road, your family is strong, you don;t settle down anywhere, but go where the work or the road takes you. You travel with family, maybe not blood, but the kind of brotherhood you can only achieve when survival is on the line. Nomad's get the Family Special Ability, another abstract that determines their ability to call upon their family for favors and support. In Interlock Unlimited Family adds to Networking and Survival skills. However, many people see nomads as being drivers, and it would not be to far out of line in the video game to give them bonuses to driving instead of treating them like flea market corps or fixers... In Interlock Unlimited their is a professional driver roll called Runner, it adds it's bonus to operating one vehicle type of the characters choice (cars, motorcycles, heavy equipment, boats, aircraft, etc...) and awareness notice rolls made while operating that vehicle type.

Rockerboy -(Street prophet, political musician, activist) - You have a message, and you have the means to deliver it. When you speak, people naturally listen.... you hold sway over your crowds through a mix of charisma and talent for telling people things in a way they will respond, be it a catchy tune or voice chouted from a soap box. The Rockers special ability is Charismatic Leadership, which allows them to motivate an audience into listening and believing in the message, even riling them up for immediate action... In Interlock Unlimited Rockerboy was broken up into 2 seperate roles, Artiste to cover the musical side, and Instigator to cover the activist side. Artiste gets the Masterpiece special ability, adding to Perfom or play instrument checks, while Instigator gets the Charismatic Leadership which adds to Oratory and Leadership.

(note, Interlock Unlimited isn't an official product, it is a fan supplement re-write of the original cyberpunk 2020 rules, I cited it here as an example of a possible way to evenly and effectively handle the abstract nature of most of the roles special abilities for a video game context.)
 
Really hope that this game is not just going to be a long series of silly fights and that a different approach and gameplay is going to be possible.

All roles can be interesting, it only depends how the game is made and the options the players have.
 

You misunderstood my meaning here Wis. I meant we need to define the element that makes these roles unique, not describe each role.

Other games tend to use the classic "Warrior/Ranger/Mage" approach, defining a class by the fighting style they favour. Dragon Age is a classic example of this. This is not the case in Cyberpunk because no particular method of combat is exclusive to a specific role, (though some are better in these areas than others.)

It is the characters role in 'society' that defines who they are and what they do in Cyberpunk. There are over 80 different roles across the 2020 publications, not including the specialisations within those roles. There is also a description of how to create new roles fto fit a specific niche, because even the exhaustive list of published options doesn't cover every eventuality.

I would love to see the original 10 roles from the rulebook represented in 2077 but some roles would be really problematic to implement, as we have already discussed at length.

So, if the current role list were thrown out the window, what would be good replacements? Can we suggest a new, condensed list that covers as much of the ground covered by the master Role list as possible?

And how about specialisation? Picking a basic role and then 'specialise' with a background option at character creation:

Example 1
Fixer - Information Broker / Black Marketeer / Pimp / Streetpunk
They are all fixers, but the specialisation would change their starting skills and give bonuses in different situations. Info Bro's would have more contacts who could provide intel and change identies, Black Marketeers would find it easier to buy and sell illegal tech, Pimps would have more access to drugs and prostitues and there is always the option to be a jack-of-all-trades Streetpunk.

Example 2
Solo - Soldier / Street Samurai / Hitman / Thug
Again, all Solo's. Soldiers are trained better in tactics and demolitions, Street Samurai and better H2H fighters, Hitmen are stealthier and Thugs are the good allrounders.
 
Solo - Combat guy, (soldier, mercenary, bodyguard, assassin, hitman, fighter) - anyone who makes their living via combat and fighting. In the PNP game their special ability is combat sense, it adds to initiative and awareness notice in combat situations.

Cop - (detectives, uniformed officers, corporate investigators, PI's, Bounty Hunters) - These are men and women who enforce the law. Their special ability is called Authority, and is somehwat of an abstract concept in the PNP game, but is treated as a measure of their position within the department, and the rest of the police force having their back as well as the law. (With Interlock Unlimited a Cop still gets Authority as a special ability, but instead of being an abstract concept it adds to Intimidate and Interrogate. With IU there is also the Role of Investigator, which covers the detectives, it's Special Ability is Deduction, and adds to Human Perception and Awareness Notice in investigative situations)

Media - (Journalist, reporter, radio dj, anchorman, correspondent) - You gather and report the news, the stories the city needs to hear, or what you think they need to hear anyway. A Medias special ability is called Credibility, which again is kind of an abstraction of how trustworthy they are perceived to be, the higher the trust the public has in them, the more people are willing to open doors, grant intervies, leak secrets... (Interlock Unlimite has Gredibility adding to Interview and Composition)

Corporate - (executive, accountant, small business owner, manager,) - You know money, you know tax laws, you know the stock market, you know supply and demand. You don't care what your company makes, as long as it makes money... You buy, sell, and trade like other people breathe. The Corporates special ability is Resources, an abstraction of the concept that within your company you can pull strings to make whatever you need happen... private car, team of body guards, a rival removed from the boardroom... In Interlock Unlimited Resources adds to Networking and Business Sense.

Techie - (mechanic, engineer, handyman, master craftsman) - You fix things, you build things, you keep things functioning. Techie's get the special Ability Jury Rig, which allows them to make makeshift repairs and constructions that won't last or look pretty, but will get the job done at elast for a while. In IU Techies get the Special Ability Adept, which adds to Jury Rig, now it's own skill, and any other tech skill.

Med Tech - (Doctor, Nurse, EMS, back alley doc) - you fix people. The Med-Techs special ability is Med Tech, which allows them to practice surgery... Interlock Unlimited give the bonus for Med Tech to First Aid and any other medical skill such as diagnose illness, cybertech, surgery (which is now it's own skill).

Netrunner - (Hackers, IT, Digital Security specialist, programmer) - The digital world is your domain. Netrunners get the special ability Interface, which allows them to directly jack into the net, hacking in virtual reality... in the original rules, Netrunners are the only ones who can do this. Interlock Unlimited has Interface giving it's bonus to 2 of the following skills, programming, system knowledge, and library search.

Fixer - (drug dealer, arms dealers, information broker, black marketeer) - You know where to get what people need, you sell it, or buy it, you are the criminal equivalent of a corporate, and you do your job with style. The Fixer knows people, thats his real ace in the hole, a list of contacts in every part of the city, on every cornor, from the glass and steel towers of corporate plaza to the broken down ruins of the combat zone. The Fixers Special Ability is Streatdeal, which allows him to have a vast network of contacts, to buy, sell, and trade goods and information through. In Interlock Unlimited it adds to the skills Streetwise and Persuasion/Fast Talk.

Nomad - (biker, gypsy, migrant worker, wanderer, smuggler, trucker) - You live on the road, your family is strong, you don;t settle down anywhere, but go where the work or the road takes you. You travel with family, maybe not blood, but the kind of brotherhood you can only achieve when survival is on the line. Nomad's get the Family Special Ability, another abstract that determines their ability to call upon their family for favors and support. In Interlock Unlimited Family adds to Networking and Survival skills. However, many people see nomads as being drivers, and it would not be to far out of line in the video game to give them bonuses to driving instead of treating them like flea market corps or fixers... In Interlock Unlimited their is a professional driver roll called Runner, it adds it's bonus to operating one vehicle type of the characters choice (cars, motorcycles, heavy equipment, boats, aircraft, etc...) and awareness notice rolls made while operating that vehicle type.

Rockerboy -(Street prophet, political musician, activist) - You have a message, and you have the means to deliver it. When you speak, people naturally listen.... you hold sway over your crowds through a mix of charisma and talent for telling people things in a way they will respond, be it a catchy tune or voice chouted from a soap box. The Rockers special ability is Charismatic Leadership, which allows them to motivate an audience into listening and believing in the message, even riling them up for immediate action... In Interlock Unlimited Rockerboy was broken up into 2 seperate roles, Artiste to cover the musical side, and Instigator to cover the activist side. Artiste gets the Masterpiece special ability, adding to Perfom or play instrument checks, while Instigator gets the Charismatic Leadership which adds to Oratory and Leadership.

(note, Interlock Unlimited isn't an official product, it is a fan supplement re-write of the original cyberpunk 2020 rules, I cited it here as an example of a possible way to evenly and effectively handle the abstract nature of most of the roles special abilities for a video game context.)

That was interesting to read. Really
 
I'm assuming he's talking about the 9 original roles.

Of which I think we'll probably only be getting five or six.

Expansions might come later.
 
I'm assuming he's talking about the 9 original roles.

Of which I think we'll probably only be getting five or six.

Expansions might come later.

I still maintain that 'Medtech' should be counted as it's own role. It is in all the relevant material, (even it's listing in the rulebook points out it isn't the same role.)

But that aside, which roles would you suggest dropping?
 
Hmmm... maybe If they dropped roles no role would be dropped, paradoxically, as we would be able to choose our skills. I've already talked about how I perceive the roles CP2020 offers, as having to do with what we do for a living and the outlook of people, mainly our employers (a media wouldn't be employed to commit an assassination and so on), and so, I can hardly look at it in a "roleless" way, but okay, CDPR, surprise me.
 
I still maintain that 'Medtech' should be counted as it's own role. It is in all the relevant material, (even it's listing in the rulebook points out it isn't the same role.)

But that aside, which roles would you suggest dropping?

Really, I want'em all because I am a greedy sumbitch.

But realistically, what will most likely end up dropped is Media, Rockerboys, and Corporate. Then again maybe CDPR will surprise all of us and have all 9 plus whatever other roles they come up with.

Who knows. I'm just keeping my expectations at five or six.
 
I reaaaallly doubt they will drop Rockerboy, if for no other reason than CDPR has mentioned they love the role. I hope they don't drop Corporate - I think a lot of people are interested and I know that the Ventrue - Vampire Corporates - for Vampire Bloodlines were fun to play. Dominate go go.

As I say in another thread, this is my number one question right now for CDPR: which Roles are in and to what degree? Far too early to say, though.
 
Of the roles I listed, Corporate probably the least likely to get dropped.

They could build a really interesting Syndicate-like meta-game for the Corp campaign. I would love it.

Really I'm probably underestimating them, but I prefer to be on the safe side.

Edit: Also you may have a point about Rockerboys since Wardrobe and Style made it in.
 
To be honest - as opposed to my usual lies - and considering this is CDPR's first multi-role game, I'm fine with only a couple of Roles.

For me, this first of what I'm sure will be a series of great RPGs is very much about exploring CDPR and Mike's vision of Cyberpunk 2077, actualized and in play.

I'm not too worried what Role I am. I really, really hope there are multiple Roles - and pretty sure there will be - and especially want to see the Roles in play among the NPCs, because they are such cyberpunk staples.

But insofar as seeing multifaceted role-dependent gamplay and writing, I'm happy just to see a gameworld and story that works well in only a few Roles like Solo, Netrunner or Fixer, and Cop. The Cyberpunk Thief/Mage/Fighter. Oh and Techie.

Hmm.

Okay, Solo, Netrunner, Fixer, Cop and Techie. And Rockerboy. SIX,I tell you. I'm fine with just six!
 
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