Should Witcher 3 use PhysX instead of Havok?

[Aver]

I'd likely get myself and AMD card next year then if they decided to do that

Not everyone is ready to throw money whenever developer put you in such situation.

I still hope that they won't use any hardware accelerated features, otherwise I will be really disappointed. I will still buy their game (I know that they wouldn't care if I wouldn't buy it anyway), but my sympathy for CDPR will be much weaker.

 

[Agent_Blue]

what games exactly used Havok Cloth?

Tekken Tag Tournament 2, for example ( source: http://www.havok.com/ )

I also presume both Fallout4 and TES VI will use it since Bethesda has already licensed Havok Physics, and to good effect in my opinion.

 

[Aver]

what games exactly used Havok Cloth?

Heavy Rain, Tekken Tag 2, Mortal Combat and other fighting games.

BTW. Crysis 3 doesn't use physx. Crytek used their own custom solution, which proves that if you are determined then you can make top notch physics that works perfectly smooth on hardware from all manufacturers.

 

[CostinRaz]

BTW. Crysis 3 doesn't use physx, they use their own custom solution (which proves that if you want then you can make top notch physics that works perfectly smooth on hardware from all manufacturers).

Notwithstanding the notion Crysis 3 is a 7 hour long game and it has several hundred developers that worked on it I really don't see why you care so much? Would you rather have cloth like in TW2 instead of no improvements because CDPR decided to not use Havok for whatever reason?

Not everyone is ready to throw money whenever developer put you in such situation.

Between cloth and no cloth or hair vs no hair I'll take them even if I have to buy a new GFX card to use them.

 

[Aver]

Notwithstanding the notion Crysis 3 is a 7 hour long game and it has several hundred developers that worked on it I really don't see why you care so much? Would you rather have cloth like in TW2 instead of no improvements because CDPR decided to not use Havok for whatever reason?

As I said, if I will be able to use all features than I won't be disappointed. If part of phsycis will be unavailable for me, then I would prefer them to use different technology - because why I should care about features in the game that I can't use?

Heavy Rain have amazing cloth simulation and it uses Havok.

 

[CostinRaz]

And if they don't want to use that other technology what then? As for being unavailable, you will be able to use it but a huge performance hit.

 

[Aver]

And if they don't want to use that other technology what then? As for being unavailable, you will be able to use it but a huge performance hit.

Less than 15 FPS is called 'unavailable' in my dictionary.

 

[prince_of_nothing]

Don't know if this has been reported, but pcgameshardware.de is reporting that the Witcher 3 will be using PhysX instead of Havok />

Source

 

[prince_of_nothing]

If it's using PhysX, there will likely be different settings. On low, a fast CPU should easily be able to handle the particle effects. On medium setting, a highly overclocked quad or hex core Core i7 or better CPU may be able to do it, assuming they are using SDK 3.0 or later, which has more optimizations for multicore processors.

On high though, a GPU will almost assuredly be necessary, if prior PhysX games are used as an indication. The amount of particles on screen can easily exceed 10,000, which is a lot to ask of the CPU.

 

[Agent_Blue]

If it's using PhysX, there will likely be different settings. On low, a fast CPU should easily be able to handle the particle effects. On medium setting, a highly overclocked quad or hex core Core i7 or better CPU may be able to do it, assuming they are using SDK 3.0 or later, which has more optimizations for multicore processors.

On high though, a GPU will almost assuredly be necessary, if prior PhysX games are used as an indication. The amount of particles on screen can easily exceed 10,000, which is a lot to ask of the CPU.

Havok will be showcasing its newest version at GDC in 3 weeks' time, boasting a significantly reduced memory/processor footprint. Any news of recent PhysX developments on that front?

 

[prince_of_nothing]

None that I know of, but NVidia already released an updated SDK in 2011 with much greater optimizations for multicore processors, and they're continually refining the software.

The key advantages with PhysX over Havok are the tool sets and support available to devs. I think it's free as well, even for commercial use; at least for Windows games.

 

[Aver]

Mod: please allow others to state their opinions freely and discuss without dismissing them.

 

[gregski]

We all appreciate the passionate attitude towards technology, different platforms and so on.

Let's stick to discussing just that and keep personal issues out, shall we?

 

[Aver]

Mod: please allow others to state their opinions freely and discuss without dismissing them.

Ok then.

Prince_of_Nothing, I changed my mind. Don't check PhysX and Havok sites. Keep posting whatever you want without checking facts.

 

[Aver]

None that I know of, but NVidia already released an updated SDK in 2011 with much greater optimizations for multicore processors, and they're continually refining the software.

The key advantages with PhysX over Havok are the tool sets and support available to devs. I think it's free as well, even for commercial use; at least for Windows games.

No, Nvidia doesn't provide any support and Havok does. Moreover PhysX documentation is only in Finnish language, because Aegia, original creator of PhysX was Finnish company and part of deal between them and Nvidia when Nvidia bought them, was agreement that Nvidia won't translate any documentation nor creation kit from Finnish. It's because Aegia was very patriotic company and they wanted to promote Finnish languge - I know idiotic, but it's the way it is :/ . So it's very hard for programmer to work with PhysX, but Nvidia provides help from their translators (so I guess we can say that they provide some support, but only basic).

Also, if company want to use PhysX they have to sign agreement with Nvidia that source code of the game is property of Nvidia - it's necessary to check if some component wasn't used in improper way. So using PhysX is very shady business. That's why so few companies use it - most of them are afraid that they will lose control over their source code.

 

[Agent_Blue]

No, Nvidia doesn't provide any support and Havok does.

If memory serves me well, I think I remember reading about their support to Bethesda over SKyrim, which uses Havok to good use.

Moreover PhysX documentation is only in Finnish language, (...)

Are you positive? It sounds the worst business practice ever. Finnish is quite difficult.

Also, if company want to use PhysX they have to sign agreement with Nvidia that source code of the game is property of Nvidia - it's necessary to check if some component wasn't used in improper way. So using PhysX is very shady business. That's why so few companies use it - most of them are afraid that they will lose control over their source code.

That's hard to swallow. I just can't imagine the viciously independent CDProjekt handing out their code on a silver platter to Nvdia. It'd be an even worse business practice than a manual written in Finnish alone. You're talking about code which handles physics, not the entire source, right?

It'd be a sign of professionalism for a journalist to ask them about the move from Havok to PhysiX.

 

[username_3581677]

I will let you in on little info\

AMD vs Nivida.

AMD worries to much about top Fps and will basically gun for that in hopes to sway the sheeple that see OMG that AMD card beats the NVIDIA card by a FPS . However if you look at the avergae and the lows NVidia is the clear winner. I have Used both and Iike both but I tend to buy Nvidia because they have better products. Period. Also NVIDIA did not want the contracts for wither console? why No money in it. AMD needs the filler money....hell they need any money they can get. Nvidia has a postive cash flow of 3billion plus. Yes, in the bank that is savings. They are winning there is no room for debate here. AMD on the other hand is in the whole and their credit was downgraded yet again just a few mths ago. I hope they pull through as they do offer a decent produce for a good price.
Also NVIDIA does more in the same FPS (effects wise, post processing etc) than AMD


AMD vs Intel

again AMD is loosing and as a rule of thumb it takes 2 pile driver cores to equal 1 intel core(that is why you need an 8 core to a 4 core intel to compare). Intel has billions in the bank too.....again amd has nothing and are loosing money hand over fist. I smell a buy out or merger with ARM or somebody else along those lines. Rather that then they die off completely.

I hope MAD gets its act together we need them to push NVIDIA and INTEL or else we the consumer will suffer with higher prices and less innovation overall.

 

[GuyNwah]

I will let you in on little info\

AMD vs Nivida.

AMD worries to much about top Fps and will basically gun for that in hopes to sway the sheeple that see OMG that AMD card beats the NVIDIA card by a FPS . However if you look at the avergae and the lows NVidia is the clear winner. I have Used both and Iike both but I tend to buy Nvidia because they have better products. Period. Also NVIDIA did not want the contracts for wither console? why No money in it. AMD needs the filler money....hell they need any money they can get. Nvidia has a postive cash flow of 3billion plus. Yes, in the bank that is savings. They are winning there is no room for debate here. AMD on the other hand is in the whole and their credit was downgraded yet again just a few mths ago. I hope they pull through as they do offer a decent produce for a good price.
Also NVIDIA does more in the same FPS (effects wise, post processing etc) than AMD


AMD vs Intel

again AMD is loosing and as a rule of thumb it takes 2 pile driver cores to equal 1 intel core(that is why you need an 8 core to a 4 core intel to compare). Intel has billions in the bank too.....again amd has nothing and are loosing money hand over fist. I smell a buy out or merger with ARM or somebody else along those lines. Rather that then they die off completely.

I hope MAD gets its act together we need them to push NVIDIA and INTEL or else we the consumer will suffer with higher prices and less innovation overall.

I'm afraid you're right about AMD. They overpaid greatly for ATI, they never had decent fabrication facilities, their work in setting up Global Foundries still left them chasing Intel. Also, they have yet to produce a design that is a game-changing improvement over the first 64-bit Athlons.

Nobody works harder or more creatively than Intel at dominating their industry. In addition to their tangible assets, which are enormous, they have:

1. A mindset that Moore's Law is not merely a historical curiosity but marching orders to this day.

2. Ron Friedman in charge of CPU development, with a string of wins going back to the original Core.

 

[prince_of_nothing]

No, Nvidia doesn't provide any support and Havok does.

I know this for a fact to be wrong. When Batman Arkham Asylum came out, the inclusion of hardware physx was a late addition that caused the game to be delayed. During that time, Nvidia sent out one of their own software engineers to help Rocksteady implement the effects.

PhysX is actually an important part of The Way It's Meant To Be Played Program, and we all know how active Nvidia has been in courting developers over the years..

Moreover PhysX documentation is only in Finnish language, because Aegia, original creator of PhysX was Finnish company and part of deal between them and Nvidia when Nvidia bought them, was agreement that Nvidia won't translate any documentation nor creation kit from Finnish. It's because Aegia was very patriotic company and they wanted to promote Finnish languge - I know idiotic, but it's the way it is :/ . So it's very hard for programmer to work with PhysX, but Nvidia provides help from their translators (so I guess we can say that they provide some support, but only basic).

I've never heard this before ever. I can't say for a fact that it's incorrect, but the weirdness I think speaks for itself.

Also, if company want to use PhysX they have to sign agreement with Nvidia that source code of the game is property of Nvidia - it's necessary to check if some component wasn't used in improper way. So using PhysX is very shady business. That's why so few companies use it - most of them are afraid that they will lose control over their source code.

Again, you're the first person I've ever heard say this. If it were true, I think it would be much more notable, as thats a pretty ridiculous price to pay..

Also, PhysX isn't some obscure physics API. More games use PhysX than Havok (the software version). In fact, the Unreal Engine 3.0 has PhysX integrated into the engine itself, and look how many games use the UE3.

I'm sure the fact that it's free to use also has a lot to do with it's popularity.

 

[Aver]

Prince, read previous posts in the topic and Havok/PhysX website. You will find out official info that those facts are true.

Also NVIDIA did not want the contracts for wither console? why No money in it.

Yeah, that's why they paid money AMD's lead contract negotiator to change company from AMD to Nvidia and that's why they stole documents containing AMD's negotiation strategy.

But please, keep manufacutrers war out of this topic. We already have one, it didn't end well and it didn't add anything to the topic because topic is not about that.