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Side quested to death

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S

Scholdarr.452

Banned
#21
Dec 11, 2014
Nilhilion23 said:
He suggests more of a Dragon Age: Origins approach which would compromise very well the whole open-world freedom with hub-based non-scaling enemies approach. I doubt that will be the case concerning traditional Witcher storytelling, but time will tell.
Click to expand...
Possible. But I never was a friend of the storytelling in Origins. For the ability to choose they sacrificied believablity and immersiveness. The world itself wasn't alive with you being just a character in it. On the opposite, each event "waited" to happen until you decided to go there. The same logic works perfectly fine in a directed, linear experience but it's pure poison in an open world game imo. Let's take a look at DA Origins. No matter if you went to the Circle or to Redcliffe first, your decision was meaningless. The mages waited to kill each other until you brought yourself visiting their circle and they just played roshambo if you decided to go to Redcliffe first. And if you went to the Cirle first the Darkspawn just waited to attack the Redcliffe castle, again, until you brought yourself to visiting the place. In other words: the free choice to proceed here was bought by sacrificing consequences.

Maybe you can prevent that by penalizing the player for his choices all the time. Choice and proper effect on a constant leve. You didn't go to the Redliffe first in Origins? Ok, so the Darkspawn burnt down the castle and killed everybody or something along these lines. That would have been a believable narrative and a well done choice and consequence system. Problem is that it is extremely difficult to built an open world like that, incorporating all kinds of different consequences in a believable way and without alienating the mainstream audience too much (which I wouldn't mind but hey, let's stay realistic). The larger and more connected your world is the harder it is to implement such direct consequences into your game world. That's one of the core reasons why developers used relatively limited hubs for such consequence-heavy games (and Bioware even failed to do that properly WITH HUBS...). They require way less thought and effort to make that even remotely possible. And the problem gets even harder the more lifelike and less abstract your overall world is. There is a reason why post-apocalyptical settings are pretty good for such games. They offer quite a lot of empty spaces with seperated, small communites or locations that don't communicate much with each other and aren't really connected. Visiting a place in Fallout New Vegas or Fallout 3 and doing something "bad" doesn't necessarily destroy the overall immserion if you went to another place and nobody knows that you just murdered 20 people for no reason. It's kind of believable that in a world without law, without any order and without any effective communication people neither know or care that much about what you do elsewhere. But in a game set in a still working society the problem is much bigger to let consequences of your actions really stay believable. The Witcher world might be medieval-like and fantasy, but it's not a broken, post-apocalyptic world. It's a world in which most people know who Geralt is or they know at least his reputation and occupation. Everything you do must have consequences. Actually every step you take in the game should have consequences. How should one realistically cope with that in an open, limitless world in which you can do "anything at any given time" according to CDPR's own marketing while most other experienced studios already often failed to do so with small hubs? I don't know, either they find the Golden Grail of RPG gaming and we should all bow our knees in praise or they just sacrificied something else in order to give people a free open world (and free is still to be better determined here). Giving up direction and giving people options isn't bad but it usually comes at a cost and I just cannot believe that the story-telling and narrative focus of the Witcher games will stay all the same just with open world added to it. That just sounds extremely overambitious to me, sorry.

But back to BlackWolf500's suggestion: yes, that would indeed be cool. But I doubt that they have the skill, money and capabilities to make that happen on a sufficient, immersive scale...
 
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R

randyrhoads

Rookie
#22
Dec 11, 2014
It all comes down to how you wanna RP it and the way you manage your time between the main path and the side.
 
Y

Yurtex

Senior user
#23
Dec 11, 2014
Scholdarr said:
...
Let's take a look at DA Origins. No matter if you went to the Circle or to Redcliffe first, your decision was meaningless. The mages waited to kill each other until you brought yourself visiting their circle and they just played roshambo if you decided to go to Redcliffe first. And if you went to the Cirle first the Darkspawn just waited to attack the Redcliffe castle, again, until you brought yourself to visiting the place. In other words: the free choice to proceed here was bought by sacrificing consequences.
...
Click to expand...
That is why I never finished DA:O
 
B

BlackWolf500.298

Forum veteran
#24
Dec 11, 2014
He suggests more of a Dragon Age: Origins approach which would compromise very well the whole open-world freedom with hub-based non-scaling enemies approach. I doubt that will be the case concerning traditional Witcher storytelling, but time will tell.
Click to expand...
I do not SUGGEST anything, that is what the developers said way in the beginning of the development when talking about the story. They went like "you can start the story on different points and will see a completely different angle. And after a while you will put the pieces of the story together coming closer to the conclusion". That was the answer to a question in an interview asking how they combined strong storytelling and a clear narrative with the open world design.

And apparently - but don't hold me to that point, I could swear I heard them say it but I can't be sure 100% - based on where you start or what you do first it might have a different outcome and different consequences in the end.
 
S

Scholdarr.452

Banned
#25
Dec 11, 2014
randyrhoads said:
It all comes down to how you wanna RP it and the way you manage your time between the main path and the side.
Click to expand...
Hm, I still disagree. First, Witcher 3 is about a predefined character so your role is pretty much a given thing. Second, in a story-driven game roleplaying is limited as well since you are embedded in a greater narrative. I may remember you that Witcher is not a sandbox game (at least I hope that it hasn't transformed into one....) and that effectively everything you do is about story progression and not role progression...
 
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A

Attar

Banned
#26
Dec 11, 2014
I haven't played DA:I yet so I don't about that, DA had always been single player, but, KoA was supposed to be an MMO game not a single player game due to technical reasons or some limitations.
 
xDeithwenx

xDeithwenx

Senior user
#27
Dec 11, 2014
Side quests in The Witcher generally have a story to them. Think Mass Effect or Dragon Age Origins.

Also, KOA was a flawed game. Just too boring for my tastes.
 
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H

His_Majesty

Senior user
#28
Dec 11, 2014
The Witcher would be able to get away with fetch quests. Monster hunting and gathering ingredients are well integrated into the lore. As opposed to games like Kingdom of Amalur or the more recent Dragon Age: Inquisition where you are the chosen one and most fetch quests make absolutely no sense from a storywise point of view. Most sidequests in The Witcher 1 & 2 are also well executed and deal mostly with monstens, for example the werewolf quest in The Witcher 1 or the succubus quest in The Witcher 2. The situation requires the attention of a witcher but it goes deeper than a simple fetch quest.
 
N

Nilhilion

Forum veteran
#29
Dec 11, 2014
BlackWolf500 said:
I do not SUGGEST anything, that is what the developers said way in the beginning of the development when talking about the story. They went like "you can start the story on different points and will see a completely different angle. And after a while you will put the pieces of the story together coming closer to the conclusion". That was the answer to a question in an interview asking how they combined strong storytelling and a clear narrative with the open world design.
Click to expand...
I must have missed that piece of info apparently. Anyone got any source on that?

BlackWolf500 said:
And apparently - but don't hold me to that point, I could swear I heard them say it but I can't be sure 100% - based on where you start or what you do first it might have a different outcome and different consequences in the end.
Click to expand...
You are absolutely right in this one, at least concerning side quests. It has been confirmed numerous times e. g. here (around 2:30) and here (starting around 7:30)
 
P

Phinnway

Rookie
#30
Dec 11, 2014
@whiplash27 This Witcher 3 presentation from European Gamers Expo 2013 might help answer some of your questions. It addresses the issue of getting side-tracked quite a bit. They mainly talk about it from 13:30 - 23:30 or so.


To summarize the video a little bit, they basically have two solutions to this problem: "Events Clusters" and "Helpful Reminders."

"Event Clusters" is a way of designing the open-world. Basically, it puts activities that are interesting to the player (side-quests, areas to explore, etc.) in close proximity or "clusters" in the open world. That way there is plenty for the player to see and do after traveling long distances, and if the player gets side-tracked while working on a story-quest their objective is still nearby.

The other solution is to use "Helpful Reminders." Helpful Reminders are the cutscenes they used in TW1 and TW2 to show the player when a choice they made previously in the story caused the events currently unfolding. In TW3 "Helpful Reminders" will be used frequently to help the player remember what they did last in the story-quest in case they got side-tracked along the way.
 
Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
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N

Nilhilion

Forum veteran
#31
Dec 11, 2014
@Finnway
That's exactly what I've posted earlier in this very thread

Your wording is much better though :p
 
P

Phinnway

Rookie
#32
Dec 11, 2014
Nilhilion23 said:
@Finnway
That's exactly what I've posted earlier in this very thread.

Your wording is much better though :p
Click to expand...
It better be! I spent too much time writing that. Now I'm going to get that coffee I started brewing a while ago...
 
Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
R

RC-07

Rookie
#33
Dec 11, 2014
I love being subquested to death. The world just feels so much alive with that.
 
D

Doctalen

Rookie
#34
Dec 11, 2014
RC-07 said:
I love being subquested to death. The world just feels so much alive with that.
Click to expand...
I don't know. I think it's a bit silly when every peasant in town has a need for a Witcher and also has the money to hire one.
 
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Geralt_of_bsas

Geralt_of_bsas

Forum veteran
#35
Dec 11, 2014
Docttj said:
I don't know. I think it's a bit silly when every peasant in town has a need for a Witcher and also has the money to hire one.
Click to expand...
hehe yeah.

Peasant: oh witcher, oh witcher please, look at your cat eyes, who if not you would be more appropriate to save my poor cat that cant get down from that tree over there? xD
*Geralt silently turns around and starts brewing some cat-lethal oil for his sword*

Now seriously, I think "sidequested to death" is not a very good way to describe many quests, it sounds like someone is forcing it upon you or blatantly trying to incite you to do quests all the time, and I'm totally against that, however Im NOT against the quantity of quests being large, as long as they dont get in the way and ruin immersion and consistency.
Its in the way its presented and implemented what might make the difference, the many quests also shouldnt be too stupid/ilogical/gamey/grindy for example.
 
D

Doctalen

Rookie
#36
Dec 12, 2014
Geralt_of_bsas said:
hehe yeah.

Peasant: oh witcher, oh witcher please, look at your cat eyes, who if not you would be more appropriate to save my poor cat that cant get down from that tree over there? xD
*Geralt silently turns around and starts brewing some cat-lethal oil for his sword*

Now seriously, I think "sidequested to death" is not a very good way to describe many quests, it sounds like someone is forcing it upon you or blatantly trying to incite you to do quests all the time, and I'm totally against that, however Im NOT against the quantity of quests being large, as long as they dont get in the way and ruin immersion and consistency.
Its in the way its presented and implemented what might make the difference, the many quests also shouldnt be too stupid/ilogical/gamey/grindy for example.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't mind persistent hunting quests. Just have some billboards posted around that have hunting quests generated now and again as a way to get money. Somewhat randomly generated so it's not always the same monster spawning over and over and have enough time in between them that realistically this new monster may have showed up while you were gone. Not sure if they're doing anything like that but I would like it. If you can play the game after the ending then it would make sense for some quests to always be generating to make money.

They mentioned something like "If you kill all the deer then wolves will move on. If you kill wolves then deer will become more populated" so maybe monsters will have the same sort of thing?
 
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S

Scholdarr.452

Banned
#37
Dec 12, 2014
Well, if they stick closely to the books Geralt is out of work most of the time. The only thing he does is hunting monsters and real monsters (not the human ones...) have gotten rare in the last years. Not even speaking about Geralt's moral dilemma of not wanting to kill conscious monsters and monsters that are threatened by extinction... ;)

A lore-friendly Geralt would just ride from one town to the next, always asking the respective village president for monsters that must be hunt down. And in most cases he would just continue traveling without getting any work or coin...
 
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Geralt_of_bsas

Geralt_of_bsas

Forum veteran
#38
Dec 12, 2014
Docttj said:
I wouldn't mind persistent hunting quests. Just have some billboards posted around that have hunting quests generated now and again as a way to get money. Somewhat randomly generated so it's not always the same monster spawning over and over and have enough time in between them that realistically this new monster may have showed up while you were gone. Not sure if they're doing anything like that but I would like it. If you can play the game after the ending then it would make sense for some quests to always be generating to make money.

They mentioned something like "If you kill all the deer then wolves will move on. If you kill wolves then deer will become more populated" so maybe monsters will have the same sort of thing?
Click to expand...
Well remember when they said that corpses of bandits you killed would attract monsters and such, it would totally fit for what you mentioned.
 
S

schinderhannes.999

Rookie
#39
Dec 12, 2014
Nilhilion23 said:
CDPR did a presentation with a considerable part about side quest design in an open world game. It should address most of yours and @whiplash27 concerns. The part about quest design begins around 13:20.

The Witcher 3 - #EGX 2013

In short, they went for a hub-based approach they called 'event clusters'. It's the main story that pushes you to a new area, and within this new area you will have side quests available taking place and concerning said area. I would guess you can however venture there on your own before story leads you there since it's open world. But I wouldn't expect Skyrim- or KoA:R-like approach with fetch-sidequests leading you to the other end of the map where more fetch-sidequests await. So if you follow the story, it should play similar to TW1 and TW2. The difference is you can always come back to previous area (although main story and sidequests can block other quests), and also you can probably venture to a new area before the story takes you there. So the sidequests and areas are for the most part both more accessible and optional. The other thing mentioned in the presentation is that sidequests are supposed to be meaningful stories in their own right, the main story interesting enough for you to pursue it, and there are supposed to be some sort of reminders of your main objectives. I just hope they're more subtle than an on-screen prompt :p
Click to expand...
Yep, pretty much:

schinderhannes said:
- all regions won't be accessible right from the start, they're rather 'unlocked' as one progresses in the story

- regions or hubs are 'unlocked' after one another by completing the tasks or quests in the preceding regions or hubs

- Geralt may return to previous regions at any time, it might be even mandatory to do so
Click to expand...
Think the Infinity Engine games, for example.

In regards to main/side questing in the regions/hubs itself here's hoping CDPR just went with the do-whatever-whenever-and-in-what-order-you-damn-well-please Gothic-like approach. With some gating, of course.
 
Y

Yasakani

Rookie
#40
Dec 13, 2014
Docttj said:
I don't know. I think it's a bit silly when every peasant in town has a need for a Witcher and also has the money to hire one.
Click to expand...
I'll take their daughters.

A lot of stuff that W3 has, at least from the demo, was not just monetary exchange. In the demo the exchange was mainly for information, lost voices and ears. Favor for a favor. I'm confident that their side quests will have similar rewards and stories without it just being the same old coin exchange.

This might be the first game that I will actually go through the entire town, to see the culture that Reds has created for a believable town. They look vastly more interesting and populated than other games. I think if you skip some of the side quests and go straight to the main quests, you'll be missing out on the whole experience that Reds is giving to you. You will be missing a lot of what the town has to offer in terms of characters, stories and rewards behind each town. That's what gives each town its characters. I'm just wishing that they add more hidden NPCs that you can shag. =]

I don't think Geralt is on a Lois and Clark expedition. He should be LIVING and interacting with people in each of the town that he visits. Just going straight through the town with only one motive of just finding Ciri is not something I want to do. That's like fast forwarding through the story.

Is exploring the world to find challenging monsters and loot considered "side quests"? If so, that's what I want to do quite often. I thought W2 was slow in that regard because it took awhile before you can actually fight. At the start I just want to start killing shit and getting used to the mechanic, not just reading through long dialogues... at least not yet.
 
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