Yeah I'm still feeling like there should be something like the skill tree in Path of Exile. All the skills are available to you, but you start at different points on the skill wheel forcing you to invest further away from your starting points to get things outside of your role. There were no throw away skills on the way over, but it would mean you gave up being a more powerful character early on for a more unique character at the later stages of the game. That way it still encourages you to take skills more associated with your role, but if you are willing to go off to do something different you could. I don't think every role should be able to grab every skill just as easily if nothing else it will make it easy for people not familiar with the system gimp themselves on accident.
Agreed, with a caveat. I see the difference between a pedestrian Net user and a Netrunner in the same way I see a difference between Joe Sarariman who checks his email / shops online, vs. someone who goes to DefCon, ToorCon, HOPE, etc.
Ok, we got solo (with a military background) and a netrunner (lets say, this character wrote advanced battle A.I.). Now I want them both to be able to use a heavy armor exoskeleton, but I want solo to get extra defense because of his class. This is the way I see it. While both can lay down an automatic turrent on ground, netrunner should get extra dps by reprogramming it thanks to his own software.
Sounds more or less ok, although in case of armour I think it should be more about stamina than a plain defence bonus, unless it's justified by the nature of the equipment (I have no idea how "heavy armor exoskeleton" works in CP).
instead of a defense bonus due to skills, it should have less stamina consumption and less dexterity penalty, unless the system sets those modifications through some "maneuver in heavy armor" skill.
Even if all characters get equal accessibility to all skills, you don't have unlimited points to learn them. Either you are elite in one or two skills or you are mediocre in them all. That will ensure unique characters through the simple concept of freely choosing your play style.
Even if all characters get equal accessibility to all skills, you don't have unlimited points to learn them. Either you are elite in one or two skills or you are mediocre in them all. That will ensure unique characters through the simple concept of freely choosing your play style.
Revisiting the idea of skills, and how to build them out.
As suggested in the Diversions thread, should we have access to activities with the specific goal of levelling skills? Should skill improvement depend on use of said skill? (Personally, that makes the most sense to me, rather than holding on to a bunch of Improvement Points, and overnight, going from unfamiliar to fluent in a language, for example.)
As suggested in the Diversions thread, should we have access to activities with the specific goal of levelling skills? Should skill improvement depend on use of said skill? (Personally, that makes the most sense to me, rather than holding on to a bunch of Improvement Points, and overnight, going from unfamiliar to fluent in a language, for example.)
Maybe we gain more XP the more effectively we use our skills, and the skills we use more often start to develop a talent tree. So XP gains are always dynamic. We snipe someone in 2 shots - 20 xp. We do it in one - 40 xp. We hit 500 XP, and a new sniping talent becomes available.
As for XP through grinding in side activities, I'd keep those rewards minimal.
As for XP through grinding in side activities, I'd keep those rewards minimal.
First of all, I hope they use Fuzion as the base rather than Interlock. Fuzion had fewer skills and was more consistent. As much as I adore the original CP2020, there are too many skills and some are too specific, and some are too narrow in focus. Remember, this has to translate well to a video game.
I am gonna drag up Fallout....
There are similarities between Fallout's SPECIAL system and Fuzion. The number of skills in Fallout was a very manageable number. I presume there will be more skills in SP2077. If there are too many skills, managing them will take too much time away from enjoyment of the game.
When I played CP2020, our Ref gave us Improvement Points for each skill, applied to that skill. (Rather than giving us IPs to spend how we want.) In CP2077 I expect one of two ways of dealing with skills:
1) Skills will number 1 - 10, with each skill having an improvement point tracker. You gain IPs by using it or training it, with higher levels requiring more IPs. That would be more true to the tabletop system.
2) Skills will number 1-100, which are raised incrementally, much like in Fallout. Drop off the last digit and you have the tabletop equivalent skill level. The interaction of Stats and Skills would have to be adjusted, but that's just math.
Either way, I would expect more "benchmarks" than "rolling" for skill checks. In a video game, you can save and reload and try again. There are ways to combat this, but it's not really necessary in most cases. It should be reserved for such instances as gambling in Fallout. (Particularly, Fallout: New Vegas had some re-load protection at the casinos.)
I know Fuzion is not a level based system, but for a video game that might be necessary. A level based system allows for skill planning. You will only get X skills or improvement points over so many levels, so your choices matter. In a more open ended system, you need to find limits, or you have to plan the game around a player being able to max every skill. Perhaps the designers will come up with an elegant solution that does not resemble Fallout. That would be cool
With option 1) above, since higher level skills cost more improvement points per level, you can specialize in a few skills or have a broad range of lower level skills.
With option 2) above, you will have the same number of points divided among your skills, so you can plan which skills will be high or low.
Honestly, the easier it is to make decisions about game mechanics, the more the player can focus on enjoying the story and gameplay. Some players value complexity and number crunching and min/maxing the numbers. For me Fallout hits the sweet spot. I understand that Cyberpunk is and should be different than Fallout. But I want it to hit the sweet spot. I really want it to be better than Fallout.
I am gonna drag up Fallout....
There are similarities between Fallout's SPECIAL system and Fuzion. The number of skills in Fallout was a very manageable number. I presume there will be more skills in SP2077. If there are too many skills, managing them will take too much time away from enjoyment of the game.
When I played CP2020, our Ref gave us Improvement Points for each skill, applied to that skill. (Rather than giving us IPs to spend how we want.) In CP2077 I expect one of two ways of dealing with skills:
1) Skills will number 1 - 10, with each skill having an improvement point tracker. You gain IPs by using it or training it, with higher levels requiring more IPs. That would be more true to the tabletop system.
2) Skills will number 1-100, which are raised incrementally, much like in Fallout. Drop off the last digit and you have the tabletop equivalent skill level. The interaction of Stats and Skills would have to be adjusted, but that's just math.
Either way, I would expect more "benchmarks" than "rolling" for skill checks. In a video game, you can save and reload and try again. There are ways to combat this, but it's not really necessary in most cases. It should be reserved for such instances as gambling in Fallout. (Particularly, Fallout: New Vegas had some re-load protection at the casinos.)
I know Fuzion is not a level based system, but for a video game that might be necessary. A level based system allows for skill planning. You will only get X skills or improvement points over so many levels, so your choices matter. In a more open ended system, you need to find limits, or you have to plan the game around a player being able to max every skill. Perhaps the designers will come up with an elegant solution that does not resemble Fallout. That would be cool
With option 1) above, since higher level skills cost more improvement points per level, you can specialize in a few skills or have a broad range of lower level skills.
With option 2) above, you will have the same number of points divided among your skills, so you can plan which skills will be high or low.
Honestly, the easier it is to make decisions about game mechanics, the more the player can focus on enjoying the story and gameplay. Some players value complexity and number crunching and min/maxing the numbers. For me Fallout hits the sweet spot. I understand that Cyberpunk is and should be different than Fallout. But I want it to hit the sweet spot. I really want it to be better than Fallout.
In CP2020 there was nothing stopping any character from using a powered exoskeleton minus the pilot ACPA skill. However, once they are piloting said armor the Netrunner is going to be at a serious disadvantage. Sure he can toss slick hacked auto turrets but, the Solo will have Combat Sense giving him some sort of not yet defined combat advantage. Also, while the Netrunner would have learned how heavy weapons work the Solo has that skill at a much higher level due to his military service.
The Netrunner would be better off hacking the 911 interface and C-SWATTING the Solo while he was sleeping.
IIRC the only real difference between Fuzion and Interlock Combat, is that in Fuzion everything is an opposed skill roll.... meaning you can dodge bullets... ugh....
I could be wrong... never been a fan of Fuzion at all, and V3 might have corrupted my mind into thinking silly things.
So.
Over in the "Success IS Boring" thread, we've come in to the discussion of Improvement Points.
For those not familiar with the pen and paper, IP is traditionally how you raised your Skills. In PnP, this was awarded by the Referee / Game Master. Obviously, for this iteration, a different mechanic needs to be introduced.
I suggest that each Improvement Point can be earned by a certain amount of experience points, which would be a hidden value on the back-end. Improvement Points would be earned by performing the skill in question. Multipliers for experience earned would be applied, given specific scenarios; being supervised by an instructor / teacher, performing under duress (like when you're being shot at,) overcoming a task with a higher-than-average difficulty, and so on. (If you refer back to Page 1 of this thread, posts 7 and 8 refer to difficulty checks in the PnP game.)
So, with the mechanic of a hidden value to improve your skill, performing an activity will make you more competent at it (going to the shooting range regularly and burning through lots of ammo,) having an instructor will multiply the experience earned towards improving your skill (a firing instructor / combat vet, correcting your stance and form,) and successfully performing under duress / when it matters will multiply the experience earned (successfully putting down those armored Militech security goons while trying to flee the building.)
Over in the "Success IS Boring" thread, we've come in to the discussion of Improvement Points.
For those not familiar with the pen and paper, IP is traditionally how you raised your Skills. In PnP, this was awarded by the Referee / Game Master. Obviously, for this iteration, a different mechanic needs to be introduced.
I suggest that each Improvement Point can be earned by a certain amount of experience points, which would be a hidden value on the back-end. Improvement Points would be earned by performing the skill in question. Multipliers for experience earned would be applied, given specific scenarios; being supervised by an instructor / teacher, performing under duress (like when you're being shot at,) overcoming a task with a higher-than-average difficulty, and so on. (If you refer back to Page 1 of this thread, posts 7 and 8 refer to difficulty checks in the PnP game.)
So, with the mechanic of a hidden value to improve your skill, performing an activity will make you more competent at it (going to the shooting range regularly and burning through lots of ammo,) having an instructor will multiply the experience earned towards improving your skill (a firing instructor / combat vet, correcting your stance and form,) and successfully performing under duress / when it matters will multiply the experience earned (successfully putting down those armored Militech security goons while trying to flee the building.)
Whhhhhy..not just earn Improvement Points? ANd use multipliers on them? Why bother with a hidden value? I mean, you can stand against a wall and fire your pistol 89 times or whatever, but that's gonna give you one, (1) IP. 89-900, same IP value.
Fire that pistol AT someone and hit them...more IP! Fire it at them and hit them while you are wounded? More IP! Fire that pistol at the plot-decided Bad Guy and hit him, even more IP. Keep firing it...doesn't matter. You get the IP for hitting him, you get the IP for shooting him a lot and maybe some IP if you get the killshot with the pistol. Say, 8 IP, (using the skill a lot for 1, using it where it mattered for 4 and using it to down the Bad Guy for 3 = 8) for the whole encounter.
Seems like a lot? Well, to -raise- that Pistol skill from 5 to 6 takes 50 IP. Just for that one skill. 6 to 7 takes 60 IP. And complicated skills like Aikido and Gyro Tech with IP multipliers like 3? You will need 150 IP to go from 5 to 6. Yeeah.
So why not use IP and the book award ratio?
Fire that pistol AT someone and hit them...more IP! Fire it at them and hit them while you are wounded? More IP! Fire that pistol at the plot-decided Bad Guy and hit him, even more IP. Keep firing it...doesn't matter. You get the IP for hitting him, you get the IP for shooting him a lot and maybe some IP if you get the killshot with the pistol. Say, 8 IP, (using the skill a lot for 1, using it where it mattered for 4 and using it to down the Bad Guy for 3 = 8) for the whole encounter.
Seems like a lot? Well, to -raise- that Pistol skill from 5 to 6 takes 50 IP. Just for that one skill. 6 to 7 takes 60 IP. And complicated skills like Aikido and Gyro Tech with IP multipliers like 3? You will need 150 IP to go from 5 to 6. Yeeah.
So why not use IP and the book award ratio?
Ha. Yeah; I guess just awarding straight IP would be a simpler mechanic.
I was trying to think of a mechanic that would hinder people trying to exploit game mechanics, to "grind" for IP.
I was trying to think of a mechanic that would hinder people trying to exploit game mechanics, to "grind" for IP.
I think the game should let them try to grind, considering that repeating the same action DOES earn you XP: 1 IP per session. Grind away, boyo!
You'd have to divide up sessions somehow for 2077 - Chapters of the plot would work. Or a day/night cycle. Hey, do we get day/night cycles? NEW TOPIC COMING.
You'd have to divide up sessions somehow for 2077 - Chapters of the plot would work. Or a day/night cycle. Hey, do we get day/night cycles? NEW TOPIC COMING.
Hm. You could maybe get 1 IP per day for using a skill (provided you *actually* use that skill that day, of course) and have various modifiers that would stack (combat, teacher / instructor, difficulty check, under duress / during a Job, etc.)
...and here we are again, at Skills. I had wanted to open up a thread for Skills as applied to combat mechanics, specifically, but I thought that'd be redundant. No need to give Sard more ammo with which to mock us (well... me) with. =p
So.
In a couple of other places, we discussed the possibility of the applicable firearm / heavy weapon skill increasing accuracy as you invested skill points. Each firearm (or class of firearm / heavy weapon) would have a spread pattern that got progressively tighter, as you leveled up the appropriate skill.
I could also see firearm skill factoring in to reloading time (an experienced operator being able to reload and cycle the weapon faster than a novice.) Possibly, greater skill could mean increasing the rate of fire, in weapons like break-action shotguns or revolvers.
Since (presumably) aiming will be twitch-based, being able to shoot a tighter group at further ranges will help IMMENSELY if CDPR includes specific hit locations, similar to the PnP game. (Head shots all day, e'rry day!)
Any other thoughts as to how the firearm skills could work?
So.
In a couple of other places, we discussed the possibility of the applicable firearm / heavy weapon skill increasing accuracy as you invested skill points. Each firearm (or class of firearm / heavy weapon) would have a spread pattern that got progressively tighter, as you leveled up the appropriate skill.
I could also see firearm skill factoring in to reloading time (an experienced operator being able to reload and cycle the weapon faster than a novice.) Possibly, greater skill could mean increasing the rate of fire, in weapons like break-action shotguns or revolvers.
Since (presumably) aiming will be twitch-based, being able to shoot a tighter group at further ranges will help IMMENSELY if CDPR includes specific hit locations, similar to the PnP game. (Head shots all day, e'rry day!)
Any other thoughts as to how the firearm skills could work?
My take on skills in 2077 is this:
Weapon Skills should improve your 'proficiency' with the associated weaponry. Better stability, tighter grouping, faster reloads, better mobility. To an extent, it should also improve your the effects of weapon maintainance.
Tech Skills should give more options for technical actions, increase the probability of technical actions working and also increae the speed at which the actionsa re completed.
Social Skills should open more diverse dialogue options and a better understanding of thse around you, (perhaps to the extent where a similar system to Deus Ex: HR's "Social Enhancer" implant, where you can attempt to use different skills to affect dialogue and reactions.)
Knowledge Skills should grant in-game information and improve technical and cocial options where viable. basically, knowledge skills should afftect the use of other skills.
Weapon Skills should improve your 'proficiency' with the associated weaponry. Better stability, tighter grouping, faster reloads, better mobility. To an extent, it should also improve your the effects of weapon maintainance.
Tech Skills should give more options for technical actions, increase the probability of technical actions working and also increae the speed at which the actionsa re completed.
Social Skills should open more diverse dialogue options and a better understanding of thse around you, (perhaps to the extent where a similar system to Deus Ex: HR's "Social Enhancer" implant, where you can attempt to use different skills to affect dialogue and reactions.)
Knowledge Skills should grant in-game information and improve technical and cocial options where viable. basically, knowledge skills should afftect the use of other skills.