Oh well, that's way easier. I wrote a whole bible on how the lore effects the choice you make in Stormcloaks vs Imperials if you pay attention to the lore:
http://colonelkillabee.tumblr.com/post/69423051613/stormcloak-bible-index
Oh well, that's way easier. I wrote a whole bible on how the lore effects the choice you make in Stormcloaks vs Imperials if you pay attention to the lore:
http://colonelkillabee.tumblr.com/post/69423051613/stormcloak-bible-index
Cool page. I browsed through it a bit but my question still stands... of what consequence is any of the lore in regard to the choices a player must make in the game? If I know the lore is it going to help me in any way? Is it going to change the outcome of what happens in the game? Am I going to be able to make different choices with different outcomes because I took the time to read the lore? Or is it all just there as something to read to pass the time? As "fluff"?
Can't really answer that fully until we see the effects of the stormcloaks and Imperials in the next game. But one effect that is immediate is the presence of the Thalmor in the game, who carry off victims for torture and also attack you. Also, if you like heimskr in Whiterun, it wouldn't be smart to side with the Imperials, because they have to enforce the talos worship ban, and he's a talos priest. A very loud and outspoken one. So he'll be carried off obviously, and arrested.
Siding with the stormcloaks besides getting rid of the thalmor also restores talos' statue in the capitol of Skyrim. The jarls change, and the soldiers are displaced, which the townsfolk and jarls themselves express their pleasure or anger with. Stuff like that.
Knowing the lore doesn't somehow open up new paths just by knowing it, but it gives better context to what the heck you're doing and how it will effect the world, or could effect the world. In other words, someone who knows the lore like myself will likely do things differently than someone who doesn't, because they know how that would effect their character. Me knowing the lore is the main reason why I never become a vampire or stay a werewolf. Because my character's soul will become damned to their respective daedric lords.
I also kill this priest of Boethiah instead of giving him to Molag Bal as the daedric priest asks because of a related quest with a woman named Serana, as well as the fact that I know the lore behind Boethiah and have a better idea than most as to why she dislikes Molag Bal. That and the poor bastard would be forced to submit to Molag Bal's will with my help, and I'm not a fan of helping someone named the "King of Rape" get his late night booty scratch.
edit: In other words, it gives the game and what you do in it meaning. It's the very reason I'm able to roleplay. This is an example of how I do that, and how characters can be different. Where that story and narrative comes from. I wouldn't likely be playing this game if it didn't have that kind of purpose in what I was doing.
Some may call this fluff, but to me, I can't play a game without knowing lore behind it, or I won't care about anything I'm doing.
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While the examples you gave are cool because they enhance the ambiance and setting, they are all also of relatively little significance concerning what actually happens in the game. So many choices you make in the game are basically just fluff since they lead to no real change or consequence. Go here, do this or that and when you're done everything goes on about its business like you basically don't even exist. You become the leader of a guild? Who cares, surely not anyone in the Skyrim world. There is no consequence other than receiving a new title. The game deals with the vast amount of choices it gives you in the worst way possible: by making everything you do have very little impact.
Well, that to me is a matter of opinion. I don't consider it fluff, because it gives my character and what I decide to do meaning, and has an effect on the lore, which to me is vastly more important.
However, I do love Fallout New Vegas, and how what I do impacts the actual in game world, and that is refreshing. Though it is depressing when I remember that none of this will effect the world in the long run. New Vegas being independent, or taken over by the legion or NCR, none of that will matter in the future. So it all depends on what you care about more.
I personally like for what happens in the game to matter to the world in the long run, and to be able to read about that and see its effects in future games. People who prefer Fallout New Vegas would rather see them now in game. Of course, I'd prefer both, but it gets really really tricky in a series like these two when you have so many players doing so many different things. There's no way they could have canon events if the world was changed so drastically in game, because you can't explain it all happening simultaneously.
I respect those who prefer to see changes now, but this is a different series, one that is long lasting and simply can't operate the way more linear games do. And effecting the lore vs effecting the game is what I personally prefer as a gamer. That's all there is to it in the end like I said from the start. A difference in opinion. It isn't fluff, it just means different things to different people.
However, I do love Fallout New Vegas, and how what I do impacts the actual in game world, and that is refreshing. Though it is depressing when I remember that none of this will effect the world in the long run. New Vegas being independent, or taken over by the legion or NCR, none of that will matter in the future. So it all depends on what you care about more.
I personally like for what happens in the game to matter to the world in the long run, and to be able to read about that and see its effects in future games. People who prefer Fallout New Vegas would rather see them now in game. Of course, I'd prefer both, but it gets really really tricky in a series like these two when you have so many players doing so many different things. There's no way they could have canon events if the world was changed so drastically in game, because you can't explain it all happening simultaneously.
I respect those who prefer to see changes now, but this is a different series, one that is long lasting and simply can't operate the way more linear games do. And effecting the lore vs effecting the game is what I personally prefer as a gamer. That's all there is to it in the end like I said from the start. A difference in opinion. It isn't fluff, it just means different things to different people.
I consider TES games to be some of the most linear games I've ever played. Nothing you do in Morrowind changes what happens in Oblivion just like nothing you do in Oblivion changes what happens in Skyrim.
The reason I enjoyed playing The Witcher games, despite also being relatively linear, is because the story and characters had a lot of depth. It was well fleshed out and there was just enough lore to keep things interesting. Also, the lore in TW games had a direct impact on gameplay; a great example of this is learning about different monsters allowed more gameplay options in the game, like how to efficiently dispatch different creatures or how to destroy their lairs so they'd stop spawning, etc. It made learning new lore exciting and relevant. Learning lore in Skyrim feels more like a history lesson and after a while it was starting to put me to sleep. Almost nothing I learned from reading the lore was exciting or engaging because I knew it was going to have little or no impact on direct gameplay. I didn't have a desire to keep finding more lore because the game doesn't give you any incentive to do so other than for the sake of a history lesson.
The reason I enjoyed playing The Witcher games, despite also being relatively linear, is because the story and characters had a lot of depth. It was well fleshed out and there was just enough lore to keep things interesting. Also, the lore in TW games had a direct impact on gameplay; a great example of this is learning about different monsters allowed more gameplay options in the game, like how to efficiently dispatch different creatures or how to destroy their lairs so they'd stop spawning, etc. It made learning new lore exciting and relevant. Learning lore in Skyrim feels more like a history lesson and after a while it was starting to put me to sleep. Almost nothing I learned from reading the lore was exciting or engaging because I knew it was going to have little or no impact on direct gameplay. I didn't have a desire to keep finding more lore because the game doesn't give you any incentive to do so other than for the sake of a history lesson.
I absolutely love Skyrim's art direction and atmosphere but I like Oblivion's vibrant and colorful palette a bit more. It reminds me of Ted Nasmith's Lord of the RIngs paintings.
In fact the The Elder Scrolls games are the closest we are ever going to have to a Lord fo the Rings game now that MERP is no more...The music, the art, the fact that every nook and cranny has a story to tell, the plentiful books offering interesting insights on the life of Tamriel (and not only), the VERY extensive lore and its characters....
Oblivion very much feels like these paintings, which is awesome.
In fact the The Elder Scrolls games are the closest we are ever going to have to a Lord fo the Rings game now that MERP is no more...The music, the art, the fact that every nook and cranny has a story to tell, the plentiful books offering interesting insights on the life of Tamriel (and not only), the VERY extensive lore and its characters....
Oblivion very much feels like these paintings, which is awesome.
The TES lore is so rich and deep and yet Bethesda only just dips their toe in for each game. Every time I get my hands on a book ingame and I read it i think to myself, what a great story I wish I was the one in the middle of it, not reading about it hundred of years laters.
Adding very little things like the ghost in Old Hroldan Inn that recognized you as Hjalti, an aspect of Tiber Septim, really gives you more satisfaction for connecting the dots yourself, rather than some NPC telling you. But those are few and far between.
@Cormacolindor As good as Skyrim's art direction was, I just got lost in Oblivion's. It was probably considered cookie cutter fantasy but it was executed to perfection IMO.
I'm also all for making choices matter more. Being guildmaster just feels like a chore.
Daedric quests should also be branched and not force you to side with the daedric prince.
Adding very little things like the ghost in Old Hroldan Inn that recognized you as Hjalti, an aspect of Tiber Septim, really gives you more satisfaction for connecting the dots yourself, rather than some NPC telling you. But those are few and far between.
@Cormacolindor As good as Skyrim's art direction was, I just got lost in Oblivion's. It was probably considered cookie cutter fantasy but it was executed to perfection IMO.
I'm also all for making choices matter more. Being guildmaster just feels like a chore.
Daedric quests should also be branched and not force you to side with the daedric prince.
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Yea, my biggest diappointment is that the potential of TES remains largely untapped, and as you said reading books in-game ony accentuates this diasppointment.
Hopefully, now that Bethesda no longer have a monopoly on open world fantasy RPGs because DA:I and TW3 intend to greatly expand the formula in new and exciting ways, Bethesda will try a lot harder in the inevitable sequel. I felt that there wasn't much evolution from Oblivion to Skyrim. Had they released Skyrim AFTER DA:I and TW3 it would have bombed because these games are going to set a new standard and are going to surpass Skyrim...at least in the open world story department.
Maybe it would be a good idea to base the next TES game in a smaller area? The area could be half as big as Skyrim but with more meaningful content.
It's a real shame when mods like these surpass the base game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1H8TVgz5b0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZphSCDgkzwo
Nehrim, the predecessor to Enderal greatly surpasses Skyrim and Oblivion in terms of story and even environment design, it's really good. Now they do build on the base game and they owe it a lot but if a group of modders can do it, Bethesda should make it better.
Hopefully, now that Bethesda no longer have a monopoly on open world fantasy RPGs because DA:I and TW3 intend to greatly expand the formula in new and exciting ways, Bethesda will try a lot harder in the inevitable sequel. I felt that there wasn't much evolution from Oblivion to Skyrim. Had they released Skyrim AFTER DA:I and TW3 it would have bombed because these games are going to set a new standard and are going to surpass Skyrim...at least in the open world story department.
Maybe it would be a good idea to base the next TES game in a smaller area? The area could be half as big as Skyrim but with more meaningful content.
It's a real shame when mods like these surpass the base game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1H8TVgz5b0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZphSCDgkzwo
Nehrim, the predecessor to Enderal greatly surpasses Skyrim and Oblivion in terms of story and even environment design, it's really good. Now they do build on the base game and they owe it a lot but if a group of modders can do it, Bethesda should make it better.
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Skyrim was a massive leap forward from Oblivion in terms of dungeons design, there really is no comparison. They also added some little story for every location, which i think was a very good decision. The dwemer ruins for example are just superb, i can replay them over and over and still feel unique. Sadly they didnt nail the living interiors, the inns in particular felt like they were put together in the last minute.
The crafting system im in love with, it just needs to be more demanding and it would be flawless.
I'm very possitive for TES6,in TES5 they adressed all problems of TES4 and fixed them (character design included). It will improve on TES5 weak points and would get and extra push from DAI and TW3, they are just too big to ignore, especially in a barren market for open world RPGs.
Get on it Todd!
The crafting system im in love with, it just needs to be more demanding and it would be flawless.
I'm very possitive for TES6,in TES5 they adressed all problems of TES4 and fixed them (character design included). It will improve on TES5 weak points and would get and extra push from DAI and TW3, they are just too big to ignore, especially in a barren market for open world RPGs.
Get on it Todd!
Agreed, I really hated how every Inn looked the same in Skyrim...the towns were also disappointing, at least when in comparison with TES4.
That's not "linear," it's part of preserving (almost) absolute player choice. Your hero's actions are left ambiguous in terms of the world state so they can remain truly yours.
Again, people are criticizing the games for what makes them unique.
As for the lore being under the surface, I agree that I wished the games had conformed more to the weird stuff, especially Skyrim where Michael Kirkbride's Nord stuff is so fantastic.
Even if they were linear, "nothing you do in Oblivion effects Skyrim" is still vastly inaccurate, given that the whole great war started because of what happens in Oblivion. I assume he means some sort of choice difference, but still.
Anyway, there's actually a good bit more than mere history in the game. A lot of the lore is taught through stories. Those aren't made up, those are actually important to read as well.
When people stop comparing this to something like Witcher that isn't as long lasting as a series with no end like this, then people will more easily understand Skyrim. It's like comparing Jason Bourne to 24.
Anyway, there's actually a good bit more than mere history in the game. A lot of the lore is taught through stories. Those aren't made up, those are actually important to read as well.
When people stop comparing this to something like Witcher that isn't as long lasting as a series with no end like this, then people will more easily understand Skyrim. It's like comparing Jason Bourne to 24.
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The TES5 civil war choice of the player wont count in TES6, BS will choose a canon path and go with it. Although frustrating its understandable (in my mind) given the scope of the TES series. All your struggle against the Thalmor will be negated and you wont feel an acomplishment
I doubt it, they're more likely to choose an outcome of the human nations that can fit to both paths. With the empire in decline anyway, it can easily be done. Those who support the Empire may not feel very accomplished though, but the pattern of decline and failure for them was set for a while now. Their fault for not seeing it.
I was reading a lot of the lore forum before i called it quits and the tower theory seems like the real deal. A complete thalmor victory and a full restart could be in the making.
If you are going to quote me please at least take the time to quote me accurately. I did not say "nothing you do in Oblivion effects Skyrim". I said it doesn't change what happens in Skyrim, big difference. This is why (in my opinion) they are some of the most linear games I've ever played. Despite all the different options and choices you make the end result will always be the same... they're meaningless.
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