So how do you think Avallac really feels about Ciri?

[SwallowHawke]

Now that image is interesting. Where do you find that? Shows that Avallach definitely isn't following her around for purely altruistic reasons.

It's one of the notes you can find scattered around in Avallac'h's lab.

But if you think about it, it is not that incriminating. Ciri already knew about his plan since she had consented to carry Auberon's child, and already knew that this plan had failed since Auberon's death. I trust that she also knew that Avallac'h would not give up so easily on her. Seems that the purpose of the note is to solve the mystery of why Avallac'h befriends Ciri in the game.

From my perspective what Avallac'h is trying to say on the note is that when he tries to push things on Ciri she reacts violently. However when he tries to reason with her she becomes cooperative. What astonishes him is the fact that Ciri is an idealist putting aside her personal interests and willing to fight for the greater good. A feature he identifies as Lara's. (Lara did not just run away with a filthy human, she also wanted to bring peace between elves and humans and her child was to become the symbol of that idea...)

Again depending on perspective, one can say that Avallac'h is exploiting Ciri's idealism. Only that in this case both Ciri and Avallac'h wish for the same thing i.e. to stop the White Frost and save not only the Aen Elle world but ALL worlds, because if Ciri with Avallac'h's help manages to stop the White Frost from expanding then the Aen Elle would not need to escape to her world. She will not need to open the Ard Gaethe for them and she would also stop the invasion and annihilation of her world. Fair enough...

Problem being that after the events in Tir na Lia, Ciri ceased to trust Avallac'h and to be able to succeed with all the above Avallac'h needed her unconditional trust. In the last sentence of his note he simply says that he will do anything possible to gain back her trust at any cost. (Even risking his own life to save her, even cooperating with humans and even turning against other Aen Elle such as Eredin and his golden child Caranthir! )

From my perspective this is altruistic.

 

[wichat]

From my perspective this is altruistic.

Or obsessive... the borderline is so narow...

 

[SwallowHawke]

Or obsessive... the borderline is so narow...

Indeed!
Everything he does is so ambiguous!

 

[norealer]

Now that image is interesting. Where do you find that?

It's found among a pile of books on the right corner before the Elder Blood family tree in Avallac'h's lab.

one can say that Avallac'h is exploiting Ciri's idealism

Exactly. He manipulates Ciri into doing what he wants her to do and make her think it's her own idea. Like what he said to Geralt before the Sunstone trap that he's counting on Ciri "to always do what she wants to do". I don't think Avallac'h's "cutting off the snake's head" approach is necessarily superior than Eredin's (whatever that is, but judging from the report in Ge'els' palace and him extending a hand to Ciri in Kaer Morhen, I would say it's invasion of Aen Seidhe world and babies). I mean Ciri's not the savior in books, and even if we cut books out of this, game!Ciri is still not fully trained. So there is a chance that Ciri might fail and die, then the whole world will be doomed, because there would be no one to open the great portal for evacuation, no one to pump out new Elder Blood babies. Personally I'd like to see Avallac'h's way like a gamble, even riskier than Eredin's.

From my perspective this is altruistic.

I don't know if risking one's life and pride in order to secure his people and kingdom, and get rid of a long-time political rival is altruistic. But I am very miffed they didn't explore the relationship between Avallac'h and Caranthir. He has all those sad looks everytime he talks about Caranthir and when activating the "Lovestone" then waiting for Caranthir to answer the call, awww... I ship it. :smile:

 

[SwallowHawke]

But I am very miffed they didn't explore the relationship between Avallac'h and Caranthir. He has all those sad looks everytime he talks about Caranthir and when activating the "Lovestone" then waiting for Caranthir to answer the call, awww... I ship it. :smile:

lol!
I noticed that, too.
OK. He says to Geralt that Caranthir is a golden child and he was shaping him even before he was conceived, so it is possible that he feels connected to him as a parent to a child. He is his creation after all... Avallac'h feels that he's failed with him since he became a criminal. I presume accepting his failure makes him sad, even realizing how unique in everything Cirilla is.

Perhaps similar to Caranthir, Alvin was Avallac'hs creation as well...

 

[norealer]

he was shaping him even before he was conceived, so it is possible that he feels connected to him as a parent to a child.

Avallac'h said he reared Caranthir but didn't raise him, and Ciri told Geralt on the way to Imlerith(I think) that Caranthir was Avallac'h's student, and thus also an secretive and pragmatic person. So I'm more leaning towards a Master/Apprentice relationship between them.

Not sure if Avallac'h would willingly experiment with human genes, he hates them so much as it is. Maybe he would just to see if hybrid cause more mutation or Alvin could just be one of the many possible bastards and unaccounted children of the Elder Blood.

 

[DepressedPerson]

I don't think he harbours any romantic feelings for her, but it is clear he has a keen interest in her genetics and in his experiments.

 

[daveyido]

^
I doubt he has any feelings for Cirilla

That alone makes him one of my favourite characters.

 

[griever0507]

Well I think Avallac'h has feelings for my Ciri however he also desires the power of Ciri. I personally do not like him for being like that, though we can't deny that he lead us to where and how to end the Wild Hunt as well as the White frost.

 

[SwallowHawke]

Avallac'h said he reared Caranthir but didn't raise him, and Ciri told Geralt on the way to Imlerith(I think) that Caranthir was Avallac'h's student, and thus also an secretive and pragmatic person. So I'm more leaning towards a Master/Apprentice relationship between them.

Yes, she says that on the way to the Bald Mountain. I have to admit that Caranthir was my favorite of the Wild Hunt members. I wonder what made him turn against his mentor and support Eredin instead... Also why is Avallac'h calling him a criminal? Because he joined the Wild Hunt? Does this mean that Avallac'h himself considers the Wild Hunt criminals? This is interesting.

 

[wichat]

Yes, she says that on the way to the Bald Mountain. I have to admit that Caranthir was my favorite of the Wild Hunt members. I wonder what made him turn against his mentor and support Eredin instead... Also why is Avallac'h calling him a criminal? Because he joined the Wild Hunt? Does this mean that Avallac'h himself considers the Wild Hunt criminals? This is interesting.

Avallac'h's arguments are that any one who supported the regicide Eredin becoming an Aen Elle betrayer. Though, I'd like to know why he needs humans for "killing" Eredin. He cannot commit the Eredin murder but he can deal with dirty humans for convince Ge'en and, so gaining his favour....

I guess there's a huger complot in his mind for him, Aen Elle's goverment and pure blood Elven....

 

[norealer]

Also why is Avallac'h calling him a criminal? Because he joined the Wild Hunt? Does this mean that Avallac'h himself considers the Wild Hunt criminals?

Yes! I was just wondering about that last night but got lazy in updating my post. As far as Caranthir knows, Eredin is his rightful king and commander. Avallac'h said himself that only he and Eredin know about the supposed regicide. How come being a general in an elite military unit, right-hand man of the reigning king, and the captain of his own awesome ship counts as being a criminal? I would say Caranthir is quite accomplished. Considering Avalla'ch and Eredin purged an entire planet of humans, killing humans or enslaving them shouldn't be considered a crime in his standard. So his claim seems really coming out of nowhere.

 

[wichat]

Let's plot freely a little... The 2 unique witness of the regicide are: the killer and Ciri. Right now I haven't my memories very clear but, I think it was Avallac'h who give him the poison... but I'm not sure. No matter. Ciri explains to Avallac'h the murder and escapes. So the unique witness of the crime in Aen Ell is he. And he doesn't support Eredin's plan which he thinks they are too much hasty. Avallac'h becomes an annoyance for the new King who lies to Caranthir. And Caranthir prefers believe to his new Kiung than his old Master....

Here I'm again, my imagination has not limit

 

[norealer]

I wonder what made him turn against his mentor and support Eredin instead...

Maybe he found out about Avallac'h's mysterious and possible horrific lab(from what King Auberon told Ciri in the books, even the sage king thought Avallac'h lab was an unpleasant place) and his breeding project. Dunno how someone should react when finding out that your mentor whom you respect and trust turns out to be just using you as a test subjest. That would cast a negative light upon their relationship. Or maybe he just doesn't agree with his approach to the Ciri problem and thinks Eredin's way is better for his people. Or he just doesn't want to follow Avallac'h into exile and commit treason. The possibilities are endless since we don't have any satisfying material to go with, we don't even have Caranthir's face...I wonder how he felt when Eredin cast that powerful curse on Avallac'h, he could be pretty conflicted.

 

[SwallowHawke]

Maybe he found out about Avallac'h's mysterious and possible horrific lab(from what King Auberon told Ciri in the books, even the sage king thought Avallac'h lab was an unpleasant place) and his breeding project. Dunno how someone should react when finding out that your mentor whom you respect and trust turns out to be just using you as a test subjest. That would cast a negative light upon their relationship. Or maybe he just doesn't agree with his approach to the Ciri problem and thinks Eredin's way is better for his people. Or he just doesn't want to follow Avallac'h into exile and commit treason. The possibilities are endless since we don't have any satisfying material to go with, we don't even have Caranthir's face...I wonder how he felt when Eredin cast that powerful curse on Avallac'h, he could be pretty conflicted.

Avallac'h's lab was not exactly a secret among his people. Gene manipulation experiments are part of their culture and they have been practicing eugenics for centuries, with all Aen Elle being genetically enhanced one way or another. Thus I doubt this could be the reason Caranthir turned against Avallac'h. However It is more possible that he disagrees with Avallac'h's approach on the White Frost matter, finding Eredin's invading approach more agreeable to his particular tastes, and that is why Avallac'h calls him a criminal. He might even believe that Avallac'h is naive thinking that Ciri is capable to stop the White Frost although I doubt the Wild Hunt was aware of the latter plan.

About the curse, they could have just killed him. So I thought it was Caranthir who cursed Avallac'h and not Eredin. Perhaps he couldn't permit Eredin kill his mentor therefore he cursed him instead. Unless... Avallac'h is so incredibly powerful that none of them could really harm him and they used the only way they could to incapacitate him!

Let's plot freely a little... The 2 unique witness of the regicide are: the killer and Ciri. Right now I haven't my memories very clear but, I think it was Avallac'h who give him the poison... but I'm not sure. No matter.

The decoction was Eredin's idea. Initially he invites Ciri and in secrecy tries to convince her to give the elixir to Auberon (he even threatens her with Avallac'h's lab), but she denies to do so. After that it is not clear who gave the elixir to the King but we surely know that it was not Ciri. It also seems that at this point Avallac'h had no idea about what was going on.

That night when Ciri arrives to the royal chambers, Auberon has already taken the poison and dies in her hands. After that Ciri escapes Tir na Lia with the help of the Unicorns, she does not meet Avallac'h anywhere. She meets Eredin who was after her and he seems very surprised when told that Auberon died. Most probably it was Eredin himself who gave the decoction but his intention was to help and not kill his King.

Lets note that Auberon was also using fisstech. Perhaps it was the bad interaction of the drag with the love elixir that weakened his heart and caused his death.

At this point only Eredin and Ciri know about the elixir. We don't know when or how Avallac'h found out.

 

[MisterKolega]

It's a shame so much story about the Wild Hunt and his characters stays in the dark. Every Aen Elle character has so much potential that could have been developed in the great CDRP narrative but they missed that chance.

Especially Avallach and Eredin are two characters that deserved so much more screentime. Eredin being the main antagonist in Geralts story didn't deserve to be treated like a common bandit but instead be presented as the King of the Aen Elle and the Wild Hunt as he is.

It will stay a mystery to me why CDPR focused on all those monster contract, fetch my goat, find my kid/wife quests and so hurtingful neglected the main characters.

 

[RepHope]

It's a shame so much story about the Wild Hunt and his characters stays in the dark. Every Aen Elle character has so much potential that could have been developed in the great CDRP narrative but they missed that chance.

Especially Avallach and Eredin are two characters that deserved so much more screentime. Eredin being the main antagonist in Geralts story didn't deserve to be treated like a common bandit but instead be presented as the King of the Aen Elle and the Wild Hunt as he is.

It will stay a mystery to me why CDPR focused on all those monster contract, fetch my goat, find my kid/wife quests and so hurtingful neglected the main characters.

Simple. The same thing that happened in W1 and 2 happened in W3: They ran out of time and money, and needed to get the game in a working state, so Act 3 was neglected.

 

[MisterKolega]

Then i will pray that they atleast use their gained ressources and the time they have now to make a directors cut exactly the way they imagined The Witcher 3 and deliver us a directors cut game that deserves to write gaming history.

 

[bibliofile]

Having exhausted his dialogue choices, the quests and read the notes, I would argue that he didn't originally care for her, but does later. It's a question of timeline.

Before he fled the Hunt with her, was transformed into Uma, etc., Cirilla was viewed as a means to an end. She was the genealogical equivalent of the subtle knife, and Avallach did his best to breed it out of her.

He talks about her like she was a temporary obstruction, one that could be persuaded, and removed once the task was complete. He genuinely thought that once a heir was begot, his research would cease. (The laboratory was an oasis, not a permanent residence, far from human settlement, filled with trinkets and vanities meant to remind of home.)

After the regicide Avallach's tone shifted. It was gradual. He shifted tactics, but didn't change his intent. He still thought of her as a means to a end. All the training was because he wanted to direct her. Protecting her, protects his country from the White Frost. Playing the friend made her more malleable. Calling her Zireal (Swallow) is not necessarily a familiar expression.

Avallach only grows fond of her after they are pressed, during their escape. The key to understanding this is a compilation of scenes and areas of dialogue. The key is the line, "Do not ask me to confess my feelings for her to you."

This line can be accessed after the laboratory, when Geralt questions him about the she-elf. During the dialogue, he turns away (out of guilt? shame?) when Geralt says he found her in the laboratory. Remember that Avallach mentioned the laboratory to Cirilla, but changes his mind about returning there. Avallach has not returned to the laboratory since he began to run with Cirilla. Of course, he might be banking on the feelings he cultivated with Ciri. The presence of the genealogical records and the lover endangers this.

Avallach's fight with Cirilla at the beginning of the final battle reveals further. "I can't just tie her up and teleport her." In the conversation, delivered after the "elder blood is fiery," (emphasis, swoon on fiery) this implies that he has thought of it, and further tying her up has previously crossed his mind. If you disagree with him, but tell him she can't be told what to do, he is morose about her suicidal task. He does not expect her to follow his threat, and believes in the strength of her character.

With all of these lines taken into account, previous scenes have more interest. If Avallach was attempting to find Lara Dorren in Cirilla before, through the drawings to capture Dorren's likeness, he tries to see Cirilla later. Before, in Through Time and Space, Geralt finds him with pictures of naked human women. Geralt pokes fun, but there's no "looking for water in mud." Avallach is attempting to reconcile his human attraction.

The key to loving Cirilla is to see both sides of her, and her. His original love of Doren (the elf), the (newly?) admitted love for human sexuality (human), and the admiration of her character all indicates an infatuation greater than her means as a tool.

The problem for Avallach is that none of this outweighs her ability to stop the end of the world. He may consider whisking her away from it all, but, in the end, he really can't.

 

[panamakira]

I don't know. It's hard to put my finger on it. Although people say Avallac'h didn't care for Ciri in a romantic way, I feel like there was/is something there. It was more obvious on Ciri's side but I also believe he cares for her romantically. I feel like both were too proud to ever initiate anything.

I was expecting something to come out of it, but he literally just disappeared in the ending. Anyway, it would be interesting if they ever revisit their story again.
I feel like CD Projekt was going somewhere with it, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered putting some many hints there but somehow didn't bother to finish. A loose plot line that didn't go anywhere.

---------- Updated at 05:41 AM ----------

Having exhausted his dialogue choices, the quests and read the notes, I would argue that he didn't originally care for her, but does later. It's a question of timeline.

Before he fled the Hunt with her, was transformed into Uma, etc., Cirilla was viewed as a means to an end. She was the genealogical equivalent of the subtle knife, and Avallach did his best to breed it out of her.

He talks about her like she was a temporary obstruction, one that could be persuaded, and removed once the task was complete. He genuinely thought that once a heir was begot, his research would cease. (The laboratory was an oasis, not a permanent residence, far from human settlement, filled with trinkets and vanities meant to remind of home.)

After the regicide Avallach's tone shifted. It was gradual. He shifted tactics, but didn't change his intent. He still thought of her as a means to a end. All the training was because he wanted to direct her. Protecting her, protects his country from the White Frost. Playing the friend made her more malleable. Calling her Zireal (Swallow) is not necessarily a familiar expression.

Avallach only grows fond of her after they are pressed, during their escape. The key to understanding this is a compilation of scenes and areas of dialogue. The key is the line, "Do not ask me to confess my feelings for her to you."

This line can be accessed after the laboratory, when Geralt questions him about the she-elf. During the dialogue, he turns away (out of guilt? shame?) when Geralt says he found her in the laboratory. Remember that Avallach mentioned the laboratory to Cirilla, but changes his mind about returning there. Avallach has not returned to the laboratory since he began to run with Cirilla. Of course, he might be banking on the feelings he cultivated with Ciri. The presence of the genealogical records and the lover endangers this.

Avallach's fight with Cirilla at the beginning of the final battle reveals further. "I can't just tie her up and teleport her." In the conversation, delivered after the "elder blood is fiery," (emphasis, swoon on fiery) this implies that he has thought of it, and further tying her up has previously crossed his mind. If you disagree with him, but tell him she can't be told what to do, he is morose about her suicidal task. He does not expect her to follow his threat, and believes in the strength of her character.

With all of these lines taken into account, previous scenes have more interest. If Avallach was attempting to find Lara Dorren in Cirilla before, through the drawings to capture Dorren's likeness, he tries to see Cirilla later. Before, in Through Time and Space, Geralt finds him with pictures of naked human women. Geralt pokes fun, but there's no "looking for water in mud." Avallach is attempting to reconcile his human attraction.

The key to loving Cirilla is to see both sides of her, and her. His original love of Doren (the elf), the (newly?) admitted love for human sexuality (human), and the admiration of her character all indicates an infatuation greater than her means as a tool.

The problem for Avallach is that none of this outweighs her ability to stop the end of the world. He may consider whisking her away from it all, but, in the end, he really can't.

Ok you put it way more eloquently what I think of their "relationship" too. The line, "Do not ask me to confess my feelings for her to you." and the fact that he didn't want to take Ciri to his lab because that annoying elf was there was a pretty good indicator for me something else developed between them. That female elf sounded jealous. Those are petty things she said to make Ciri feel bad but it doesn't mean it's true. Or at least it used to be true until his feelings changed.

It makes their "relationship" more complicated because you're never sure you can trust him as he has been a true bastard before and he still want her blood. I feel like it would be easier for him to just end up with her. Maybe he turns out to be her child's father since the prophesy does say Ciri has a kid.