So, how should the graveyard work? - consistent graveyard

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How should the graveyard work?

  • Don't know/don't care

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Consistency and/or logic is important

    Votes: 5 41.7%
  • Consistency and/or logic is not important

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Units should land in the graveyard "as they were"

    Votes: 3 25.0%
  • Some units can be reset, others not, doesn't matter

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • All cards should be reset to their original state

    Votes: 5 41.7%
  • I have some other opinion(s)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    12
Alright, so, at the release of the game (HC) some cards in the graveyard would stay "as they were" when they landed in the graveyard, others would be reset to their "standard" state. Most notably, locks remained in the graveyard, until this was changed (not fully successful), and locks were removed once units landed in the graveyard.

Both approaches are inconsistent, unless ALL cards reset when in the graveyard, and my question (to myself) was, why should they?
For me personally, the old way was easiest to notice by the fact that units stayed locked in the graveyard, but Jutta (Skellige) that lost half of its power on the board, reset to full points when put in the graveyard, with all the implications that entailed.

I don't really have a strong opinion on the topic, but I'd like to see consistency and a clear "policy" regarding the graveyard. I'm a bit baffled by the inconsistency and I'm wondering why things are as they are or was as they were. What logic is there behind the graveyard actually?

So, I guess there are 3 approaches, probably more, but 3 that I can think of.

1. units land in the graveyard "as they are", always (logical? not functional?)
2. inconsistent - some units/factors are reset when landing in the graveyard, others aren't (cards don't all fully reset to their original state)
3. full reset - all cards when put in the graveyard return to their original state (functional? not logical?)


Regarding the 3rd option, the inconsistency is most notable in cards that in some way transform on the battlefield, they remain in their transformed state rather than their original state (ex. slave infantry transform), (how about charge/order units?). And then there is the issue of "stolen cards" and copies as well and such things. And the doom vs lack of doom and how this logically should work.

Is there really a full line of thought about the whole graveyard? In my opinion there is not. There seem to not be some overriding plan or handle regarding the graveyard, and thus some things turn a bit more random and changes are done that are not necessarily consistent or logically understandable.

So, I'm no expert on the topic, in fact I'm probably a bit opposite of a graveyard expert. So let's roll talks about this. I'd be very interested to hear the opinions of people who know more about this issue than I do, and who can explain how it works exactly, how it should work, the logic (how it is, how it should etc) and the rationality behind the whole thing. Advantages and disadvantages of doing it one way vs another. I really have alot of open questions in my mind about the graveyard. Am I perhaps even wrong? is it consistent, logical and does it have an overall concept and plan?

Let me know. Thanks.
 

4RM3D

Ex-moderator
the inconsistency is most notable in cards that in some way transform on the battlefield

There is a difference between transforming a card and resetting it. When a card is transformed, the old card is destroyed, e.g. Slave Infantry. When a card is reset, it's returned to the original state of its current "identity". So, you cannot reset (Mandrake) a unit transformed by Slave Infantry back to its previous identity. But if the new unit has a status (like resilience), it can be reset.

Units that move to the graveyard should be reset; all statuses and (de)buffs removed and restored to its original strength.
 
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There is a different between transforming a card and resetting it. When a card is transformed, the old card is destroyed, e.g. Slave Infantry. When a card is reset, it's return to the original state of its current "identity". So, you cannot reset (Mandrake) a unit transformed by Slave Infantry back to its previous identity. But if the new unit has a status (like resilience), it can be reset.

I understand what you are saying.. But.

Units that move to the graveyard should be reset; all statuses and (de)buffs removed and restored to its original strength.

Do you think "transformed units" should not be reset in the graveyard? A good example is "frightener"
 
Isn't it already consistent? Units do get reset in graveyard. No locks, no buffs, no debuffs. If played or summoned from graveyard, they do the same as if played or summoned from somewhere else.
It's more straightforward and consistent than before, when they kept the lock (for example), but it was removed when taken out of the graveyard just because... I didn't notice any inconsistency with how the graveyard works right now. I think 4RM3D summed it up perfectly in his 2 posts.

PS: the poll is kinda flawed since "all cards should be reset" and "consistency/logic are important" are not exclusive.

Frightener and Phoenix are special cases, and another discussion topic. Frightener could (should?) get a doomed tag. Phoenix could have deathwish: turn into the artifact that summons itself from graveyard (to echo the other post where some thought it was a problem, although with Regis and Northern wind it's not really a pb imo).
 
Aah, sorry, i misunderstood.
Well imo it is consistent. All boosts, damages, tags and effects are removed. The card goes back to how it looks like in the collection. If you play it from the graveyard, it's deploy triggers, it gets charges, orders... If you summon it, it just pops on the board. The only concrete difference from before is the lock is removed upon entering the graveyard, and it only makes a difference for Cerys and Phoenix, who are both +/- unblockable unless banished.
I think for other cases like the transformation, stealing and all, it's more a matter of getting how the mechanism works but it makes sense and is reliable. Never had or saw an issue with it personnaly
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
It's definitely consistent... it might be weird, maybe not the best option, but it is consistent.

Basically cards like Phoenix, Cerys, Ruehin, Ciri Nova no longer need to fear locks... but on the other hand, with the popularity of Muzzle, Sweers and banishing units/bombs, they're still risky.
 
Ruehin's ability is deathwish. Haven't tried but he shouldn't work when locked, no? Since the deathwish happens when moved to the graveyard, so still while locked.
 
It's definitely consistent... it might be weird, maybe not the best option, but it is consistent.

Basically cards like Phoenix, Cerys, Ruehin, Ciri Nova no longer need to fear locks... but on the other hand, with the popularity of Muzzle, Sweers and banishing units/bombs, they're still risky.

I'm still a bit confused though. Maybe I just don't get the logic behind it.

And how about doom, is there currently enough use of it, or is there room for improvement? I mean, are there more units that should be doomed? Should this mechanic be used more or is it fine? How about doom for those transformed units?
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Ruehin's ability is deathwish. Haven't tried but he shouldn't work when locked, no? Since the deathwish happens when moved to the graveyard, so still while locked.

If I'm not confusing cards here, I just locked him in a game yesterday, and no, deathwish should not work if locked. But, my opponent never got around to triggering him, so I can't be certain the lock works as it should now that graveyard lock is removed. But it works on Regis.
 
I'm still a bit confused though. Maybe I just don't get the logic behind it.

And how about doom, is there currently enough use of it, or is there room for improvement? I mean, are there more units that should be doomed? Should this mechanic be used more or is it fine? How about doom for those transformed units?

I think Champion of Svalblod and Frightener should get a doomed tag since they are both really strong, and in factions that can easily get value of them from the graveyard.
The mechanic itself works fine. I am actually have fun now with a Arachas queen deck where I purify all my drones to remove the doom tag and finish with Grave Hag. It's not competitive but it's funny. But the mechanic works fine. If it has the doomed tag, it's removed from the game upon entering graveyard. All effects when it is destroyed or what still triggers but the card is instantly banished one it "touches" the graveyard. No problem there for me either.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
Today i actually used Ciri Nova and Cerys, and can confirm that locking them and sending them to the GY does nothing to stop their abilities.

Doomed is a different thing. And i learned the hard way that now it banishes not only when it enters in the GY but has soon as it leaves the board. For example if you use Decoy on a doomed unit, it's banished and you dont get another from deck.

But this allows for interesting possibilities - in this seasonal mode, where there's a lot of double shupes, you can use that NG Yen spell that puts cards on top of the opponent's deck to instantly destroy shupes. Its great because its relatively cheap, and you dont have to worry if you have a higher unit, you can select any unit or artefact and remove it, so its very versatile for other instances too.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
So, just found out something i wanted to share, and since it's kinda related to this topic, ill put it here to avoid opening a thread for such a small thing...

So, Morkvarg has always been one of my favourite cards. And was curious to see if something worked - discard morkie like it's common, so he ressurects immediately, but doomed. Then i decided to purify him with pellar (4pt/5prov), then used Corrupt Flaminica on Morkvarg... and IT WORKED!!!

You get another Morkvarg ressurected for a 2nd time, a 9pt flaminica and an enemy with bleeding for 5 turns. You need 3-4 cards in hand for this combo, for a 18pt+5 bleeding in 3 turns... it might not be worth it, but its fun and i had never seen anyone try it.
 
Then i decided to purify him

Well, purify does remove all statuses, which includes Doomed. No one plays it, though, because it's not worth it. Another combo is purifying Germain's cows for a Beastmaster deck.
 
So, just found out something i wanted to share, and since it's kinda related to this topic, ill put it here to avoid opening a thread for such a small thing...

So, Morkvarg has always been one of my favourite cards. And was curious to see if something worked - discard morkie like it's common, so he ressurects immediately, but doomed. Then i decided to purify him with pellar (4pt/5prov), then used Corrupt Flaminica on Morkvarg... and IT WORKED!!!

You get another Morkvarg ressurected for a 2nd time, a 9pt flaminica and an enemy with bleeding for 5 turns. You need 3-4 cards in hand for this combo, for a 18pt+5 bleeding in 3 turns... it might not be worth it, but its fun and i had never seen anyone try it.

Yup purify doom is a thing. Not sure if it's very useful, but like you said, it can be useful.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
Well, purify does remove all statuses, which includes Doomed. No one plays it, though, because it's not worth it. Another combo is purifying Germain's cows for a Beastmaster deck.

When they introduced doomed, back in beta, the purpose was to stop cards that would be too powerful if played more than once.

I guess now they consider there are no such cards... Even Shupe, which can be purified and renewed, im guessing, but since renew is 13prov already...
 
When they introduced doomed, back in beta, the purpose was to stop cards that would be too powerful if played more than once.

Really? I guess they forgot to add doom to a number of cards they added after that then.

I guess now they consider there are no such cards... Even Shupe, which can be purified and renewed, im guessing, but since renew is 13prov already...

Perhaps they forgot to take that into account when they added purify..
 
When they introduced doomed, back in beta, the purpose was to stop cards that would be too powerful if played more than once. I guess now they consider there are no such cards...
Perhaps they forgot to take that into account when they added purify

In beta, you didn't have provisions to offset the costs. Now you do. So, undooming cards is no longer an issue. However, in certain cases, it could become an issue where it would limit the design space. That's the reason why Emhyr was changed to Nilfgaard units only.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
In beta, you didn't have provisions to offset the costs. Now you do. So, undooming cards is no longer an issue. However, in certain cases, it could become an issue where it would limit the design space. That's the reason why Emhyr was changed to Nilfgaard units only.

Also, it was way easier to replay bronzes and silvers with the old decoy, where you just replayed it. I remember Operator was Doomed, because it created units on the hand instead of the board like it does now... With the new decoy, the only way to assure you play the same card is to mill the deck so there's no more units on deck.
 
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