So... there will be crunch...

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Man just imagining how stressful it must be to work at CDPR makes me feel bad like people are expecting so much from this game that every dev must be working wayyyyy over what is healthy because of the pressure that the hype created. Everyone is expecting so much from this game that they completely ignore how much the business side of the company might be pressuring their employees to deliver something almost impossible, and of course if it all fails it would be blamed on the devs.

and to everyone that says that crunch somehow motivates workers probably never had to work 12 hours at a low-paying job
the difference is that game dev is seen as this dream job so that the devs feel somehow indebted with their employers.
It just goes to show how usually companies see their employees as a tool and not a person.
 
You’re right. The voice of one man is the voice of no one. There is safety in numbers.


Wrong. Workers in any field must cooperate and fight for their rights by forming trade unions that would dictate their will to the employer. Only by doing that on the mass scale would this practice of crunch be eradicated. Until developers en masse rise up against it rare outliers will keep getting silenced and media will keep pushing the “if it’s happening in all the game studios the it must be the norm” narrative.
My experience with unions (in health care mind you) is that they lead to complacency, poor work etiquette and likely a lesser product. The place I was originally from used to be home to tons of factories and manufacturers until the union movement lead to poor labor, poor production and pretty much every factory being turned into a den for the homeless.

That's just my experience in my state though. I'm not arguing for mandatory crunch, but the far spectrum is no better.. Especially when businesses become husks with boarded up windows.

I'm also stating that "crunch" or overtime is a thing in literally any type of work field whether it's video game development, construction, house keeping or the medical field. If you're on an hourly payrate instead of salary it's even less of an issue. I couldn't tell you how it works in Poland, but in the United States at least it's how things seem to work at least.

Edit: Honestly without working for these companies or seeing the conditions first hand it's impossible for any of us to comment appropriately on the matter. If "crunch" means mandatory work without benefits (this is a thing even in unions though), then that's an issue. If people are able to decide whether or not they do overtime and are actually meeting the standard for the company, then it's fine I would say. Especially if they're being paid for their time. Someone commented at rates nearly double what I would expect in the U.S. in one of the most expensive states to live, so I can't imagine things being too bad.
 
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I have a question for people. We know it's possible for an individual to be a successfull workaholic. Is it possible for a company to be a successfull employer of workaholics? With a very motivated and heavily invested team willing to "crunch" for results; without deception, extortion, malpractice, slavery etc? If such a perfect company of crunchers can theoretically exist, why does CDPR not qualify, what should they be doing differently?
 
You can be a part of something amazing or you can be a mediocre nobody.
HK-47 mode activated
Correction: You can be a part of unneccesarily extreme hard work so you can get few extra bucks and a "thx dude we couldn't do that without you" message which nobody but you will remember while your company gets all the praise and money or you can refuse to waste your time just because you'll get more bucks and an useless thank you message.

You're welcome
 
I'm also stating that "crunch" or overtime is a thing in literally any type of work field whether it's video game development, construction, house keeping or the medical field.

Nope: I worked at the number one in boat anti pollution system while they had too much activity (and will work with them again when they will have more work near march/april), and there was no crunch at all: they just did get a LOTS more workers (like at least four times more) and the parking was too small for that much, but that was it. No mandatory overtime at all.
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Wrong. Workers in any field must cooperate and fight for their rights by forming trade unions that would dictate their will to the employer. Only by doing that on the mass scale would this practice of crunch be eradicated.

It worked better before the work was not globalized. Now if they can they just change country if something like that happens.
 
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I keep seeing people basically treating crunch and overtime as the same thing, and they're not.

Overtime is normal. Overtime happens and most times people will happily volunteer for it, because it's sporadic and something the employee can choose whether they want or not.

Crunch is forced extreme overtime, where devs are being made to work 80+ hour weeks without option (well, the option is they get fired and lose their livelihood). Being made to work in an extremely unhealthy manor that leads to various physical and mental health issues, with breakdowns being a common result.

If CDPR gets people to work some overtime, that's not an issue. The problem is when people are being literally worked to death. Not only is it illegal and morally wrong, but it's stupid from a performance of view as well, as there's a limit to how long someone can work productively. Forcing them to work beyond that is lower the quality and productivity they can put into the project. When that starts happening, there's a big issue with how management is handling the project.
 
I keep seeing people basically treating crunch and overtime as the same thing, and they're not.

Overtime is normal. Overtime happens and most times people will happily volunteer for it, because it's sporadic and something the employee can choose whether they want or not.

Crunch is forced extreme overtime, where devs are being made to work 80+ hour weeks without option (well, the option is they get fired and lose their livelihood).

If CDPR gets people to work some overtime, that's not an issue. The problem is when people are being literally worked to death.
Does anyone have actual information on this game mandating consistent and extreme overtime that results in firings if it's refused?

All I've found is the Kotaku thing where it's expressed that it's not mandated and that they're trying to stress this to employees, that there's no penalty for refusing overtime, that they get paid 150-200% standard rate and that it's a normal development leading up to the final year basically where it would be expected to get the product ready for trailers, advertisements and launch.

The hospital I work with (and many in my state) has a union for some of the workers with a clause for "mandations". In other words, you don't get a choice in the matter. If they're short, then you're forced to stay whether you have kids at home or not. I'm not a part of the union and I've never had to be mandated (unlike union workers), but there's also an expectation for patient safety and staying to help out. --- I would think this is basically the same to getting a product ready to ship

I heard Witcher 3 development was bad, but I haven't seen anyone coming out about Cyberpunk since their assurances to make things better (which I'd think they would be if it stayed the same).
 
Edit: Honestly without working for these companies or seeing the conditions first hand it's impossible for any of us to comment appropriately on the matter. If "crunch" means mandatory work without benefits (this is a thing even in unions though), then that's an issue. If people are able to decide whether or not they do overtime and are actually meeting the standard for the company, then it's fine I would say. Especially if they're being paid for their time. Someone commented at rates nearly double what I would expect in the U.S. in one of the most expensive states to live, so I can't imagine things being too bad.

Yes, I believe CDPR devs get triple pay for overtime. I'll have to find the interview between Kotaku's Jason Schreier and Marcin Iwinski to confirm.

My viewpoint is, if the crunch is...

  • Non-mandatory.
  • Appropriately rewarded (financially and with benefits).
  • Not something you can get fired over for refusing.
  • Not occurring for longer than a couple months toward the end of development (I heard The Witcher 3's crunch time was like a year -- YIKES if true!!!)
Then I will not argue against it. We cannot control people's perceptions. Just because they think there might be repercussions if they don't crunch, or they think they might not be seen as a "hard worker," does not mean any of those things are true, especially not if there's an actual, binding policy in place that prevents that from occurring.

If any of the opposite is happening, so if crunch is mandatory, it's happening for months and months on end, it doesn't come with additional compensation, and you can be fired for working normal hours, I will actively argue against that. I will call companies out for that. Those policies are completely scummy.

As far as I know, all of my "criteria" apply to CDPR. If there's any proof to the contrary, I am more than willing to consider it, and possibly change my mind.

Would I prefer devs never need to crunch at all? Of course. As long as devs can continue to optionally push themselves if they choose, even if there's not even a real need (longer game dev cycles or better management, perhaps?), I'm on board.
 
Capital keeps the workers in check by keeping a certain sized pool of unemployed simultaneously threatening their current employees with a potential firing and upholding the idea that there a million miles long line of people willing to take their place if they don’t behave.

First off, unemployment is not some plot, but the consequence of the economic calculation problem. Though Mises probably didn't intend the theory to end up being applied to capitalism as well, however as mathematics and computer science has progressed, the universality (reaching far beyond economics) of the underlying problem has been revealed.

Since the future state of the economy is impossible to predict, it is likewise impossible to perfectly match future supply with future demand and thus to perfectly match labour supply with labour demand. Hence unemployment.

Second off, summary dismissal of employees is illegal under Polish labour code, as it is under EU labour code generally.

Furthermore, Polish labour code states (underlined emphasis mine);

Should the employment contract for an indefinite period be terminated by the employer, the employer is obliged to inform in writing the trade union which represents the worker about the intent to terminate the employment contract and specify the reason for terminating the contract.

 
Reading through the various posts makes me wonder what our forefathers would think...you know the ones 150 years ago that farmed or cut timber from daybreak to sunset.

I think a lot of people on either side have perfectly valid points...one I'd like to make that I don't recall coming across is the amount of time the employee wastes BS'ing or venting next to the water cooler or with their office mate...or just non-work-related internet time. So much of the onus seems to be on the responsibilities of the employer but everywhere I've worked I've observed significant amounts of time wasted by the employee. And this is generally tolerated because the leadership understands that such is necessary for reducing stress. One could make the argument that crunch could be eliminated if every employee worked diligently for the requisite number of hours...but I know such will never become reality.
 
Furthermore, Polish labour code states (underlined emphasis mine);

You know that, 99,99% of the time the reason "decreased activity" is considered good enough, and can be called even if there is no decreased activity (and besides, it would actually even be true if you dump the employee once the crunch is over).
Actually "increased activity" is also the most used reason for temporary works reason, even when there is no actual increased activity.
Laws aren't infallible and peoples are paid to find how to goes around it.
 
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The way this is currently being pushed as something unique to the video games industry and the way CDPR is being singled out for it is making me see conspiracies.
Everybody who works with deadlines does crunch. Maybe in an ideal world where everyone works on your timetable and everything succeeds on first attempt it's avoidable, but we don't live in it.
 
Man, you guy really cannot discuss this topic without bringing up politics, can you?

I agree that the thread should be locked. And I hate when threads get locked.
 
If rumors of the other thread are true, then I honestly see no reason to have crunch at the moment at least. Maybe to get some presentations ready for events like E3, but development itself should remain standard and push the date back further into something like February 2021 instead.

Gives more time for development, eases stress on employees and lets the new consoles role out for a release on them as well. Win-win for employees, consumers and management. If it's true they're struggling with current gen, then releasing on the outdated technology might be more negative PR than anything.
 
If rumors of the other thread are true, then I honestly see no reason to have crunch at the moment at least. Maybe to get some presentations ready for events like E3, but development itself should remain standard and push the date back further into something like February 2021 instead.

Gives more time for development, eases stress on employees and lets the new consoles role out for a release on them as well. Win-win for employees, consumers and management. If it's true they're struggling with current gen, then releasing on the outdated technology might be more negative PR than anything.
Other thread?
 
Other thread?
Haha my bad, the one about the delay in the news section (post #318). Someone posted some rumors that were commented on and how the delay had a lot to do with the launch Xbox One (which would also mean the PS4 and probably Xbox One S) being outdated and requiring downgrades or something.

Obviously just rumors, so take with a truckload of salt.
 
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