So uhm... dice poker is no longer in?

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So uhm... dice poker is no longer in?

  • Yes, I liked it and want it back.

    Votes: 167 65.0%
  • No, I never liked it.

    Votes: 46 17.9%
  • I don't care.

    Votes: 44 17.1%

  • Total voters
    257
There have been great discussions here on Dice Poker, and they were the amicable type too, were the consensus appeared to be a recognition that both implementations so far were flawed, and even the concept itself may be fatally flawed as a game, yet it nevertheless attracted a devoted fan following, for many positive reasons not least of which was its iconography with the universe.

I suspect they couldn't make it work, I like to think they tried, but life will go on without the occasional fleecing of a tipsy Dwarf... ;)
 

Its an overused word these days. For instance, while they were building the Titanic Centre in Belfasts Docks couple of years ago everytime the media mentioned the building they called it "iconic", even though it was still a building site. It may be a fine point, but it seems to me something earns its iconography. Can you design something to be iconic ? Of course, but thats kinda cheating ;)

Point is... Dice Poker earned its place as an Icon of The Witcher.
 
I'm back.... Oooh The horror! I will break my rule and actually reply to something here, not necessary as a reply but rather add to my original topic (See here:http://forums.cdprojektred.com/thre...no-longer-in?p=1409348&viewfull=1#post1409348). This time I will address mainly what LiefLayer addressed (Source: down below as spoiler), though this will probably be a bit more rambling than the original post.

I also like to further emphasize that the enjoyment achieved from dice poker is a bit skewed. While the attitude towards dice-poker on this forum is very favourable, you have to remember that our opinion do not reflect the average player. People posting on the forum are (in nicer terms) the most passionate group and doesn't reflect the masses, why else would we have important topics like "Graphic downgrades" & "Baby Yaga and other myths and legends" rocking the first page together with less trivial things like "Swallow potion" & "Geralt's body" (All butthurts reserved ™).

I also want to address something to LiefLayer directely.
The fact that you think the system is improved in TW2 says a lot.
This can be viewed as personal "jumps" which are against the forum rules and I don't appreciate that you are targeting me, because I believe dice-poker was better implemented in Witcher 2 than Witcher 1. Try to keep your reply coherent and stop being condescending towards people with different views.


Money and the importance of it.

Now you could state that money is insignificant in Witcher 1 and you would in parts be correct. In terms of game play money served probably only one significant role, which was to increase the amount you would then have in Witcher 2. This was important because always in the beginning of each game you were in need of money because this was the time where money actually was important.

The issue with Witcher 1 was not however the importance of money (Money was however important in Witcher 2), The mechanic served as a choir for completionists because it also rewarded people with EXP. I stated that in my original topic that this was better implemented in Witcher 2 because the exploitative notion to save/load wasn't as useful in Witcher 2 to achieve money because it was dealt with better.

If both games didn't reward the player with a updated quest journal, high stakes money rewards and EXP, the quantity of people using it would diminish to a small fraction, partly based from people defending it in this forum. In a sense I would personally be more supportive of dice-poker if this was the way it was implemented from the very beginning... But the notion to give people a easy convenient way with just loading and saving to earn quick money and experience is neither interesting for the player or is a purpose to add from a developer, as it feels "cheap" to a otherwise complex game. In hindsight, imagine both games had instead of dice-poker, Coin tossing. In a game so in depth as the Witcher franchise we have this as a trivial "side-activity".

Dice-poker, story and luck

Now I don't understand the notion that dice-poker ever was part of the story of the game, because just simply advancing through the chapters isn't equivalent of being part of the story, that's just mini-quests being available throughout the game.

However if you honestly want to highlight this I again state that it was better done in Witcher 2. The quest to receive the Troll head in the beginning as well as figuring out whether The incredible Lockhart were using drugs are at the very least logical from Geralt's point of view. The only dice-poker of significance regarding the story where the ghost in Act 4 which you only met on half of your playthroughs.

In term of luck, all games have a certain amount of luck in them. The skill plays a role where the really skilful can use "luck" as a reliable source to either increase their chances to win or increase the opponents chance to loose. This is a common feature for all games, and games which are more than a math problem but actually rewards both aspects are the most successful games in terms of social activities.

I'd like to mention real short that the "anyone can do it and therefore it's a nice feature because Geralt doesn't have an inherent advantage" is also completely legitimate to all other games that further emphasize strategy, planning and more in depth tactic... In fact all games that aren't combat-based will be equally fair no matter if you're a farmer or a witcher and there's multiple ways CD RED can implement these meaningful mini-quests without having to rely on cheap math based coin-tossing games. If the player need a break from combat these mini-quests should be fun, dynamic and last longer than 2 minutes... Something dice-poker never was.

CD RED, Immersion & The Renaissance

The fact that you on a subjective level feel that Gwent doesn't fit the world is completely irrelevant, because this is CD RED's world not a medieval world. In fact CD RED follows very closely with Sapkowski, which uses a lot of rational (and modern term thinking) to reason and explain myths and legends... This combined with a (In my opinion) very lovable world which mixtures, science, modern beliefs, old superstition and magic together in a rather in depth and appealing world.


If the claims were that card games doesn't fit into a medieval world then yes I agree to some parts... @Aes-Sídhe rightly pointed out on the next page, that this was common even at that time... However as a term of compromise I can buy that card games at that time period wasn't that common....

But as I stated, Witcher isn't a medieval age, it's a alternative universe taking place in our world as The Renaissance with further elements such as magic having a "Witcher like" explanation to the behaviour of atoms etc. If people honestly started treating the game as a Dark fantasy game taking place in The Renaissance, which is the most accurate description based on Sapkowski's work, people would actually support this notion of card games. Just because it's a dark, low fantasy world, doesn't mean the game can't take place in any other time period than the medieval age.


Conclusion

it's fine if anyone personally enjoy the game, but it did have several issues such as how cheap it felt compared to the rest of the world, how it served nothing more as a money/exp grab, how it didn't reward players with story elements instead such as lore or information, how it was exploitative with saving/loading, how the progress essentially made it a chore so that you could advance it like "normal" the next chapter & how extremely simple it was.

Nostalgia aside having a coin tossing game isn't worth sinking game development time into, especially when you could make so much more exiting and engaging mini-games. Mini-games shouldn't feel cheap, they should be treated with the same love as the actual game, cause otherwise what's the point of having them?


You do not even know what to say.
One way to make money easily? Of course if you want to make the same game 200 times yes, especially at the beginning. But it is certainly not in this way that it is intended.
At the end, instead you can make a lot of money, but it will not do you any good.
It was simple because the quicksave? You just should not do quicksave. But anyway it's the same principle with which you face the boss or any other difficulty in the game, and if you save before you die / lose you load the previous save.
The money in TW1 were still insufficient. Try to buy the armor in the second chapter with just quicksave, it's so boring. Much better to use the mini-game in order to progress with the plot. Playing dice is a way to enter the atmosphere of the time.
Many quests in TW1 can not be complete if you miss the parties. Just think about the fact that in chapter 5 you can not access to the warehouse, which is why the first time the quest of the dentist I have not been able to complete. Even the quest of Antoinette follows a similar principle, if you do not speak with her to the castle you can not even do it.
It is one of the fascinating things of TW1.
It requires no skill but just luck? This is the beauty of the game. The fact that the dice game requires luck and skill makes Geralt does not require much more human. Indeed makes everyone from the farmer to the rich more similar. Anyone can win, anyone can lose that's the beauty of the game.
Indeed, the best players should just appreciate this system, it becomes tedious to always win in the end. A game where you just have to fight monsters or humans is boring. A game in which you have to think over to fight from time to time about how to solve problems without fighting is a game that brings out all of our abilities.


The fact that you think the system is improved in TW2 says a lot.
In TW2, the system was worse because it was extrapolated from history. All the mini-games are boring because they do not serve anything to the story.
Not all games have to necessarily give you more chances of winning by reading the opponent's moves.
A card game would change little if the situation does not have a suitable context ... (in the Middle Ages they were playing Yu-Gi-Oh !? Magic? This is the main problem that comes to mind). You can win all the games of cards that you want, but if TW3 in the card game has nothing to do with the story will be boring to play. If I want to play a card game I'll take a game of cards if I want to play in TW3 want an amazing story, missions where you fight monsters or men with swords, magic and alchemy, but also a medieval world where any character to trust me must first put to the test. And I do not just want to be put to the test with monsters to defeat ... I want them ask me for money, play dice, give them the answer they expect etc ...
In TW2 was so much fun to use, Axii, or threaten them, instead of making us a game of dice? In my opinion no. It was all too automatic.
What improvements had the game of dice in TW2? In my opinion no.
Thinking then that reduced to a single game (instead of 3), the game will immediately understand what the problem of the dice in TW2, there is no connection with the story, or variety with 3 rounds.
Will a game of cards to be inserted well in a world like that of TW3? I think not.


The fact that the dice are based on luck to 100% (say 90% because a minimal strategy to roll the dice exists), it is negative? Even here I do not think so. The games in real life are based on luck sometimes. In the Middle Ages they were playing really dice, and cards in the Middle Ages are not playing for sure.

I remember in Final Fantasy games have put the cards. And in that world were not completely out of context. Think of comparing the dark world of TW with the magical world of FF is completely out of place.
But it is precisely in that direction they're going, TW1 had a much more dark.
 
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@Juuuhan you've actually changed my mind on the matter. I guess the iconic nature of the minigame was overpowering the memories of giving a heavy sigh when I lost too many times in a row. It felt like more of a chore by the end of the game and there's no real role playing aspect to it-- I mean, did the books mention Geralt being an avid dice poker player who'd play as much as he could where ever he could? I don't think so. I'm interested in the implementation of Gwent since I suspect there may be a degree of skill that's required, more than luck, which would mean I'd hopefully feel like a baddass after mastering it.
 
If the claims were that card games doesn't fit into a medieval world then yes I agree completely...

Welcome back ! I found only one fault with your analysis, worth saying because we discovered it last time. Playing Cards & games were indeed in Europe around the appropriate time (14th century), after travelling from 9th century China via Mongol conquest to Muslim Egypt and over to Spain. I see no reason why a similar process couldn't have occurred on WitcherWorld, or a completely different process perhaps involving the rehabilitation - through the medium of art - of Dwarf veterans of Brenna.

SO nothing wrong with the card concept per say, and whether a number system game mechanic could've been developed in the 14th century, I don't see why not... any argument over that would come down to degrees of sophistication, and that would be a tough one to quantify.

I noticed the end of the last Xbox panel when they showed the Gwent cards they only briefly clipped face card graphics we've seen before, then they spread the decks out face down. Interesting.

IF the ingame cards look appropriate for their setting, I think I'll be able to overlook any other details...

Nostalgia aside having a coin tossing game isn't worth sinking game development time into, especially when you could make so much more exiting and engaging mini-games. Mini-games shouldn't feel cheap, they should be treated with the same love as the actual game, cause otherwise what's the point of having them?

If they couldn't figure a way to shoehorn some strategy into the randomsauce of the dice then it would have been a third "almost a classic" outing for dice poker, and that could be viewed as an avoidable failure on their part... so yeah I trust the right decision has been made... for now ! ;)
 
Well, I for one am rather pleased to see this poll is garnering votes again, and maintaining its support for dice poker. Whether this support is representative of the all the players of The Witcher series is impossible to tell; however, it still gives the impression that, despite its many limitations as a mini-game, and its problematic balances, it retains a few loyal enthusiasts. Since I re-initiated this discussion, which had been left cold since last autumn, I would like to thank all who have voted and commented for or against the dice! Bravely done! 'Thank yous' and Redpoints for all.
 
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What I will miss most about dice poker is the sound of it. Entering a pub and hearing the cracking of the dices really added something to the atmosphere of the world. And the cheerful gamemusic while playing dice always managed to make me smile a bit.

Edit: So in my case maybe a soundmod for pubs will do it :)
 
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RIP Dice Poker?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HULk9xhL6_s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0GK2Pxg_xE

I loved Dice Poker in the Witcher 1 & 2, and I never imagined it wouldn't make a return for the final game for Geralt. I'll give Gwent a try, and heck I probably will enjoy it - but it can never replace rolling the dice, and good ol' lady luck. I just wish we had both Gwent and Dice Poker - it's a real shame.

The music I've heard, while Gwent was being played, just doesn't have that tavern charm of the dice poker theme music of Witcher 1 & 2.

Is there any hope for dlc - or have they outright said there will be no future Dice Poker dlc in Witcher 3?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HULk9xhL6_s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0GK2Pxg_xE

I loved Dice Poker in the Witcher 1 & 2, and I never imagined it wouldn't make a return for the final game for Geralt. I'll give Gwent a try, and heck I probably will enjoy it - but it can never replace rolling the dice, and good ol' lady luck. I just wish we had both Gwent and Dice Poker - it's a real shame.

The music I've heard, while Gwent was being played, just doesn't have that tavern charm of the dice poker theme music of Witcher 1 & 2.

Is there any hope for dlc - or have they outright said there will be no future Dice Poker dlc in Witcher 3?
You can always hope for a DLC but I think it more likely a mod down the roaf will reintroduce dice poker to the game.
 
Well, I wish more fans would speak up and let the Devs know they would like to see it added in as dlc at least. Maybe most people don't care? I don't know.

It's weird to me that all the sudden no one will be playing Dice Poker in the Witcher world all the sudden. So when I go up to Zoltan, and expect to have a friendly game of our traditional Dice Poker, he's just going to pretend like he doesn't know how to anymore? :(

 
Ay, the Dice Poker enthusiasts are putting the pressure in the RED Team, but there's no guarantee that the beloved game will return. While we can hope for a DLC, or a fan-made modification, I have some hovering doubts about how easily it can be instated into the game. The technical difficulty may preclude its return. Time will tell, and I've put the question to @MilezZ for the GOG.com Q&A, but, of course, there's no certainty he'll choose to answer that question. . . .
 
Dice was more luck based and the new minigame we are getting seems more skill based to me, or at least that's my opinion and to me I would prefer the latter.
 
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