Some nerfs for strong bronze engine cards (Fleder, Ancient Foglet, Messenger of the Sea)

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We currently do have some 6 provisions cards with very high point potential.

I would suggest a nerf based on devotion.

Fleder
When Bleeding is applied to an enemy unit on the opposite row, boost self by the amount applied.
Devotion: When Bleeding is applied to an enemy unit, boost self by the amount applied instead.
Counter: 1.
Refresh the Counter at the beginning of your turn.

Currently, I consider the vampire fleder swarm deck to be tier 1. Especially combined with the 4 provision neutral Undying Thirst the card offers extremely value potential.
So devotion would really help to make this card less powerful.

Ancient Foglet
Veil.
Deploy: Boost self by the total duration of row effects on the opposite side.
Whenever you apply a row effect on the opposite side, boost self by its duration.
Devotion: Whenever you apply a row effect, boost self by its duration

MO must only focus on their frost cards and can not use neutral weather cards if they focus on an all in frost deck.

Messenger of the Sea
Whenever Rain or Storm damages enemy units on the opposite row, boost self by the damage dealt.
Devotion: Whenever Rain or Storm damages enemy units, boost self by the damage dealt instead.

This combo is still ridiculuos strong and offers the highest point swing in the whole game. SK All in rain could not use the Vaedermakar/Scepter of Storms combo if they go for devotion


To sum it up:
  • I am ok with strong bronzes with no point ceiling (like old Greatswords). Old Greatswords was originally row locked but had no point-ceiling. Now, it´s not row-locked but has a point ceiling of 10.
  • One have to admit that damage is probably the easiest condition for boost compared to bleeding, Weather effects and rain/storm damage. So a point-lock appears to be justified for Greatswords
  • Nevertheless, I consider the current stats of these three cards to be really strong and would appreciate a nerf based on devotion.
  • What´s your opinion concerning these cards?
 
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We currently do have some 6 provisions cards with very high point potential.

I would suggest a nerf based on devotion.

Fleder
When Bleeding is applied to an enemy unit on the opposite row, boost self by the amount applied.
Devotion: When Bleeding is applied to an enemy unit, boost self by the amount applied instead.
Counter: 1.
Refresh the Counter at the beginning of your turn.

Currently, I consider the vampire fleder swarm deck to be tier 1. Especially combined with the 4 provision neutral Undying Thirst the card offers extremely value potential.
So devotion would really help to make this card less powerful.

Ancient Foglet
Veil.
Deploy: Boost self by the total duration of row effects on the opposite side.
Whenever you apply a row effect on the opposite side, boost self by its duration.
Devotion: Whenever you apply a row effect, boost self by its duration

MO must only focus on their frost cards and can not use neutral weather cards if they focus on an all in frost deck.

Messenger of the Sea
Whenever Rain or Storm damages enemy units on the opposite row, boost self by the damage dealt.
Devotion: Whenever Rain or Storm damages enemy units, boost self by the damage dealt instead.

This combo is still ridiculuos strong and offers the highest point swing in the whole game. SK All in rain could not use the Vaedermakar/Scepter of Storms combo if they go for devotion


To sum it up:
  • I am ok with strong bronzes with no point ceiling (like old Greatswords). Old Greatswords was originally row locked but had no point-ceiling. Now, it´s not row-locked but has a point ceiling of 10.
  • One have to admit that damage is probably the easiest condition for boost compared to bleeding, Weather effects and rain/storm damage. So a point-lock appears to be justified for Greatswords
  • Nevertheless, I consider the current stats of these three cards to be really strong and would appreciate a nerf based on devotion.
  • What´s your opinion concerning these cards?

Foglet is fine, if only because weather is awkward to use and time.

Messenger of the sea is OP on paper, but the second Rioghan meets a squirrel, suddenly your Messengers become a whole lot worse. Also, again, weather can be awkward in a short-ish round. Rain in particular, because it needs two targets for optimal value. So Messengers are kinda fine, and if you struggle with them, blame Rioghan instead.

Speaking of which, do you know what SK engine isn't fine? Freaking Crow Clan Preachers. A 4 provision card, casually being a 2-to-4 points engine that you can spawn/play/pull from graveyard till they stick and get them into double digits in literally a single turn when the time comes. Witch Apprentices had to be nerfed to 5 provisions in similar circumstances, and they're definiitely weaker, AT LEAST in the synergistic context of their respective fractions.
This might be controversial, but I think Preachers are strong enough to be hotfix material.

Fleders are literally old GSs and need to get a similar treatment.
 
Foglet is fine, if only because weather is awkward to use and time.

Messenger of the sea is OP on paper, but the second Rioghan meets a squirrel, suddenly your Messengers become a whole lot worse. Also, again, weather can be awkward in a short-ish round. Rain in particular, because it needs two targets for optimal value. So Messengers are kinda fine, and if you struggle with them, blame Rioghan instead.

Speaking of which, do you know what SK engine isn't fine? Freaking Crow Clan Preachers. A 4 provision card, casually being a 2-to-4 points engine that you can spawn/play/pull from graveyard till they stick and get them into double digits in literally a single turn when the time comes. Witch Apprentices had to be nerfed to 5 provisions in similar circumstances, and they're definiitely weaker, AT LEAST in the synergistic context of their respective fractions.
This might be controversial, but I think Preachers are strong enough to be hotfix material.

Fleders are literally old GSs and need to get a similar treatment.

Well, I am of the opinion that definitely number one Prio are currently Fleders. Messenger of the Sea was really strong in the meta shortly after the total PoP Release. Ancient Foglet´s devotion nerf would not be so extreme for MO as frost decks usually are already devotion.

I would not argue that Fleders should get similiar treatment as old GS. First the healing perfectly fits into SK. Second the big problem of Fleders are currently the neutral card Undying thirst. Here a devotion nerf would really challenge the vampire deck building.

Regarding Crow Clan Preachers:
Honestly, I am really against 4 provision engine cards which have a conditional +2 boost. (Crow Clan Preacher, Wretched Addict). I would all like them at 5 provision or at least with lower start body.
To complete it one should also keep in mind these cards:
Armored Drakkar: I do not see the conditional +2 bloodthirst boost to be problematic as its Exposed is only triggered usually every second turn.
Dimun Corsair: Usually every second turn and a lot preparation needed
 
Foglet is fine, if only because weather is awkward to use and time.

Messenger of the sea is OP on paper, but the second Rioghan meets a squirrel, suddenly your Messengers become a whole lot worse. Also, again, weather can be awkward in a short-ish round. Rain in particular, because it needs two targets for optimal value. So Messengers are kinda fine, and if you struggle with them, blame Rioghan instead.

Speaking of which, do you know what SK engine isn't fine? Freaking Crow Clan Preachers. A 4 provision card, casually being a 2-to-4 points engine that you can spawn/play/pull from graveyard till they stick and get them into double digits in literally a single turn when the time comes. Witch Apprentices had to be nerfed to 5 provisions in similar circumstances, and they're definiitely weaker, AT LEAST in the synergistic context of their respective fractions.
This might be controversial, but I think Preachers are strong enough to be hotfix material.

Fleders are literally old GSs and need to get a similar treatment.
I pretty much agree here with all points.

Messenger of the Sea, although a powerful engine, really requires Rioghan to reach her crazy potential. If anything, the issue is with Rioghan relatively binary design.

Fleders could definitely use a row-locked non devotion treatment, I actually support this idea. Devotion could go free with them on any rows.

Crow Clan Preachers on the other hand are really wreaking a havoc with so many options to (re)spawn them. Technically they should be 5 provisions, no doubt.
 
Griffin Witcher Adept
Shield.
Order: Transform an allied Witcher into a base copy of Griffin Witcher Adept.

Needs nerf. Too strong for 4 provision common card, some options, remove shield, + turns to use order.
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I pretty much agree here with all points.

Messenger of the Sea, although a powerful engine, really requires Rioghan to reach her crazy potential. If anything, the issue is with Rioghan relatively binary design.

Fleders could definitely use a row-locked non devotion treatment, I actually support this idea. Devotion could go free with them on any rows.

Crow Clan Preachers on the other hand are really wreaking a havoc with so many options to (re)spawn them. Technically they should be 5 provisions, no doubt.
Although I agree with that change, I don’t think we need to touch the Crow Clan Preacher’s provision cost.
This card wasn’t a problem before Mushy Truffle was released.
Imo they should remove Alchemy tag from Golden Froth, because I think it’s unfair that only one faction gets way better value from the neutral card than others do. That way it will stop multiple boosts of Preachers with Dwim and Froth (now with 2 Dwims Truffle plays for more points than Gedyneth, or same amount if played in r2 for carryover).
 
None of these bronzes really need a fix at this point. Some of them, like Messenger of the Sea, can become really annoying depending on how good the archetype they support is. Currently, Rain SK relies on Rioghan to be good and he can easily be dealt with in case this deck becomes meta. Including a 4p Squirrel or 2 just for him is no biggie.

Fleder is the only vampire bronze card that is good and the main reason why, together with Regis: Reborn, vampires are a playable archetype after god knows how long. Even so, vampire decks are tier 3 or lower tier 2 at best. So no, Fleder being a 4 for 6p is ok. The counter also prevents him from being the same as old GS who could buff himself limitlessly as long as damage was done.

Ancient Foglet... I mean really? This card sees some play in MO Frost decks only. And even there it is not that great. There is just so many times you can apply frost during a round. Ancient Foglet is inferior to Fleder, despite starting on the same floor, 4 for 6p.

Griffin Witcher Adept I think could be nerfed to 5p and the reason why I think this is the case is by looking at other Griffin Witchers, Ranger and Mentor in particular. Those are really underwhelming and play for less points than Adept does. Mentor in particular is just so awkward.
 
I dont think proposed change to Fleder would make a significant difference in power or play style between devo and non-devo. I'd go instead for:
Zeal
Order:When bleeding is applied to and enemy unit boost self by amount applied
Devotion: Cooldown 2
That would undoubtedly cripple vampires again, but I don't think any deck crutching super hard on one OP bronze is healthy way to balance things.

Can't believe he wrote this list without mentioning the current Alumni / Meditating mages BS.
Alumni are already row locked aren't they :D Since rowlocking was the only change that was proposed here there's nothing that can be done about them.

Ancient Foglet
Veil.
Deploy: Boost self by the total duration of row effects on the opposite side.
Whenever you apply a row effect on the opposite side, boost self by its duration.
Devotion: Whenever you apply a row effect, boost self by its duration

Umm, as written it means that the only difference is that devo foglet would buff by the duration of row effects on your side of the table. That would only matter in skellige games really. I assume that's just a mistake in wording and the intent was to mean "opposite row". Regardless Foglet is fine
 

rrc

Forum veteran
The list of broken bronzes can't be complete without Witch Apprentice. IMO, this card has no business being a 5P card. My list of over tuned cards that needs to be reworked:
1) Messenger of Sea (row lock it - effect if applied only on units on opposite row)
2) Flying Piggy (make it 6P)
3) Fleder (row lock it - effect if applied only on units on opposite row)
4) Crow Clan Preachers - Make it 5p or lose the bonded ability or make Gedy 15P.

I think Ancient Foglet is fine (don't jump to conclusion saying that I am WF player.. I am not). I don't know how to fix Alumni.. may be it should get the damage/boost on deploy and shouldn't keep increasing on live ticking patience engines.
 
4) Crow Clan Preachers - Make it 5p or lose the bonded ability or make Gedy 15P.
I've seen a better proposal - just remove the Alchemy tag from Golden Froth. Problem solved, Preachers are now in line with everything else.
I don't know how to fix Alumni.. may be it should get the damage/boost on deploy and shouldn't keep increasing on live ticking patience engines.
The very concept of Alumni is that of a gold card. 4 body, 4 damage on deploy (and they can do better) is literally Milaen. Imagine being able to roll Milaen from Bountiful Harvest! But wait, BH is a 6 provisions card, while PMP IS NOT.

Alumni should be a gold card, there's no good alternative. No zeal could work, but I am not sure.
 
These cards are good, but all of them lose to the current meta decks, especially control decks. Nerfing these cards without addressing the major problems is a huge mistake and will turn them into trash.
 
These cards are good, but all of them lose to the current meta decks, especially control decks. Nerfing these cards without addressing the major problems is a huge mistake and will turn them into trash.
That’s what the control decks exist for. If the meta goes greedy on broken engines, there will always be an answer with some control-heavy list (you can just take the meta JP with some additional bounties).
Control decks are not a problem, since they have little points on their own, but in these dark times they are not the big evil, that’s for sure.
 
That’s what the control decks exist for. If the meta goes greedy on broken engines, there will always be an answer with some control-heavy list (you can just take the meta JP with some additional bounties).
Control decks are not a problem, since they have little points on their own, but in these dark times they are not the big evil, that’s for sure.
That's a totally wrong way to go about this, though. Games should be won through skill, not decided by favorability of matchups.

Strong control decks can be a huge problem in this sense, as evidenced by still-recent Flurry/Precision Strike pandemics. Can't really play an engine deck if nothing you play lives, can you? Skill level really didn't matter.

Ideally, every kind of deck should be able to beat - or attempt to beat - any other kind of deck. Which was actually possible as recently as Master Mirror. But not anymore because both removal and engine values has since gone out of control (sorry).

Oh, and like I pointed out elsewhere, regular control isn't even that good against these new 20-40 points bronzes, so there's that, too.
 
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That's a totally wrong way to go about this, though. Games should be won through skill, not decided by favorability of matchups.

Strong control decks can be a huge problem in this sense, as evidenced by still-recent Flurry/Precision Strike pandemics. Can't really play an engine deck if nothing you play lives, can you? Skill level really didn't matter.

Ideally, every kind of deck should be able to beat - or attempt to beat - any other kind of deck. Which was actually possible as recently as pre-leader pack Master Mirror.

Oh, and like I pointed out elsewhere, regular control isn't even that good against these new 20-40 points bronzes, so there's that, too.
Although I totally agree with you, I don’t think strong control decks are the problem now (didn’t face any of them since Milva died, only some ST traps lovers left, but this deck is too weak to be competitive imho).
I personally run control-heavy NG deck, but still lose to Alumnus NR mage spam (it’s just always not enough damage to kill all the mages) or Pirates (where all this armor prevents dealing damage with most of cards).
 
Although I totally agree with you, I don’t think strong control decks are the problem now (didn’t face any of them since Milva died, only some ST traps lovers left, but this deck is too weak to be competitive imho).
They indeed aren't a problem now. But they could become one again.
Look, all I am saying is that creating another Milva and making matchusp more binary is a hard no-no. Generally, seeing control decks as an answer to something/anything is a hard no-no, too. You shouldn't be forced to play a particular archetype to have a chance at winning. Rather, the thing you're countering shouldn't be that strong in the first place.

Besides, even though control should totally be a thing, a control list strong enough to keep something like Alumni down is bound to become equally abusive and even more meta-restrictive (we've seen it happen just last season). Therefore, nerfing Alumni is a more reasonable decision than buffing removal (which, I think, we agree on).
 
They indeed aren't a problem now. But they could become one again.
Look, all I am saying is that creating another Milva and making matchusp more binary is a hard no-no. Generally, seeing control decks as an answer to something/anything is a hard no-no, too. You shouldn't be forced to play a particular archetype to have a chance at winning. Rather, the thing you're countering shouldn't be that strong in the first place.

Besides, even though control should totally be a thing, a control list strong enough to keep something like Alumni down is bound to become equally abusive and even more meta-restrictive (we've seen it happen just last season). Therefore, nerfing Alumni is a more reasonable decision than buffing removal (which, I think, we agree on).
I completely agree here, we shouldn’t buff removal tools (it would 100% become abusive as it always was in previous patches).
It’s these binary “answer or lose” cards should be restricted in some ways, so we no longer need to play absurd amount of damage to win.
 
At this point I feel that they should just straight up remove every card that makes it possible to endlessly duplicate bronze or gold cards. Two times card X is usually fine, even if it's a strong engine. But 6 times with the option to resurrect the whole buch next round is not. If CDPR doesn't put an end to this bs that is dominating the Meta right now next patch, I'm going to be rather bummed out.
 
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