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Something needs to be done with Skellige

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The SK thing has gone way too far. It is not normal that half (or more) of the games are agaisnt SK.

And the reason being is quite easy, they can thin to zero with no issues at all. How come, or better said, who thought it was a good idea to remove Blacklisting and then make a faction able to thin to zero, with leaders with enough mulligans to make it even easier through the rounds.

If you add to this the Chiro/Uni combo which is present in most of the decks, it's totally unfun to play Gwent at the moment, the meta is so stale that we are again facing autopilots decks, mainly proactive, just doing A, B, C again and again. I just have fun when I play agaisnt/with Brouver, at least you need to make some thinking.

Just for reminding you, the game went out of beta in October, and we just got a few fixes here and there and nothing more, there are still plenty of bugs and glitches and not even a major update has been conducted. It looks like we are not even in a beta, but in an alpha game. I'm afraid of what will happen with the new leader releases, I have zero confidence in them being properly tested and adjusted.
 
I have always hated SK and more so in HC. Even in Open PTR feedback I said that discard needs to be fixed, especially when the tutors are removed and other factions suffer. You can simply add all the discard cards with Morgvag, the 2 point guy who gives tempo and then have one powerful combo in your hand. That is it, you have won. You don't ever need to worry or have an alternate plan for 'what if I don't draw this combo?' You would always draw all the cards. You don't need to have Witcher Trio (saving 21 provisions which every other faction has to spend if they need any thinning).

I have repeatedly mentioned that in forum too. Discard cards are like tutors/thinner and should have high provision cost. But no, you can all all those cards and just auto-pilot your deck. No matter which SK leader you face, you always see Derren, Birna, Skald, Morgvag, 2-point-graveyard guy. No other faction has so many auto-include cards and CDPR never touches SK.

But if I have to guess, nothing about SK will be handled. Probably, MO may get nerf and the explanation will be 'we will leave SK completely broken. If everyone want to play SK, you can just build a counter deck and win all' Just like GS was left alone when everything else was nerfed in pre-HC. In the current meta, you need to build your deck to counter MO and SK and MO and SK they don't need to worry about countering any one. Just point vomit and/or remarkable consistency.

My previous post:
https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...scard-archetype-my-proposal-to-cdpr.10990645/
 
It is not normal that half (or more) of the games are agaisnt SK.
No, we are not going to be talking about confirmation bias yet again. Your personal experience does not paint the whole picture, never mind the variances from day to day and from morning till midnight.

Furthermore, you talk about the Unicorn combo, but that's not limited to Skellige. And the combo isn't even particularly more synergistic or stronger in Skellige.

That leaves us with one point only and that's Skellige's ability to thin a deck to zero cards. This by itself is not enough to win games. The strength comes from the resulting consistency, with the knowledge you'll likely get all the tools you'll need. This doesn't make Skellige too Strong, though, it just might make it too... boring and maybe not in line with the philosophy CDPR had by introducing a higher variance. The true problem, for me, is that every Skellige player is almost forced to use Discard because there is no better alternative.
 
That leaves us with one point only and that's Skellige's ability to thin a deck to zero cards. This by itself is not enough to win games. The strength comes from the resulting consistency, with the knowledge you'll likely get all the tools you'll need. This doesn't make Skellige too Strong, though, it just might make it too... boring and maybe not in line with the philosophy CDPR had by introducing a higher variance. The true problem, for me, is that every Skellige player is almost forced to use Discard because there is no better alternative.
Well, if this doesn't give you an advantage agaisnt your opponent, who still needs to find their good cards, then I don't know what you would call strong. Having the certainty that your cards will be found is an extraordinary advantage, it doesn't make it unbeatible, but for sure makes it stronger, the only downside to it is that the meta is so stale that you know what is left in their hand and you can play around it.

And yes, I will talk about my personal experience since I don't have other means to know this information. And yes, most of my games are agaisnt SK, most of them agaisnt Harald, and most of all my games run Uni and Chiro, which is not a complain about SK, but a complain to the current meta, which is the result of a lack in updates and balance fixes.
 
Well, if this doesn't give you an advantage agaisnt your opponent, who still needs to find their good cards, then I don't know what you would call strong.
But the remainder of the Skellige cards aren't particularly strong, which means that thinning to zero isn't that big of a deal. If you would have the same thinning capabilities with NR Foltest, for example, then it would be an issue. Come to think of it, the thinning to zero might become a problem with future expansions. But for now, I think it's fine.
 
aint fine, i want to thinn to zero in handbuff without witchers too :D
the neutral options are just crap
 
Furthermore, you talk about the Unicorn combo, but that's not limited to Skellige. And the combo isn't even particularly more synergistic or stronger in Skellige.
4RM3D, if you think a little deep, you can understand your statement is false. UnicornChiro combo is not limited to SK, but you know what? ONLY the SK can guarantee that they can always get 20 points out of them. Every single time. That gives them incredible (and unfair) advantage. If you deny that, I can't argue anymore.

Skellige's ability to thin a deck to zero cards. This by itself is not enough to win games
(&Later in another post):
But the remainder of the Skellige cards aren't particularly strong, which means that thinning to zero isn't that big of a deal
Again Dear 4RM3D, you are missing a key point. They just don't thin to 0 with no other synergies. They have that Skirmisher, An Crait Warrior, Morgvag, Cerys, Jutta (with summon). That is 7 cards that benefit from Discarding, giving incredible tempo that can't simply be matched by other factions (except the Big MO). If none of the above cards exist, then I agree, thinning is not that strong as they lay down low points. Also they can have the An Craite Marauder (who by the way keeps thanking God every second 24X7X365 because he was NOT in ST) which is easy 6 points with 4 point removal. And heck, if they can't use him (going first), they can always do what? Yes, discard him. Super convenient, right?

Let's take an example: Skald discarding Morgvag. He generates 9 points. Now tell me which 5 provision bronze card can do that without any setup or any condition on board? Now you can't argue that 'what if the opponent doesn't draw them both?'. Right? That is the argument for any broken card in the game. 'What if they don't draw the cards that synergizes with it? It is a waste, right?' But that argument doesn't apply to SK.

Another example: SK can always include Bekker's Mirror. It is an 18 point card (for Eyst in a single turn). Play Jutta from GY and do Bekker's Mirror. Every single time I faced Eyst that is the last play. Every single time. How the hell is it is not a problem? All your argument of thinning to 0 is not a problem or not strong is wrong. There are so many cards which synergizes with discard that they are never the points they are meant to be (either immediately) or for later.

I wonder if this is the blind eye CDPR also has about discard. They simply don't realize it. Probably there are few frustrated developer or tester goes and says 'come on guys. Lets fix this Discard' and others (who secretly love SK) say 'None of the discard cards are strong. Thinning to 0 is not strong. You see Derren is 8 provisions and 4 point on board. All is fine.' Then the other persons think 'When was Derren just 4 points card? You know what? Screwit. They are not going to do anything. Let me go and do my job'. May be.

Another argument people give is: 'Just tech against them' So, Big MO and SK can play their game, come with a plan (or manual) and just execute it step by step and win most of the times, while every other factions should tech against them? I want to play an Elf or Dwarf deck, but I have to add Yarden or Regis just to tech against them? How is that fair to others?

This is the thought process when I try to build a deck:
1) I have to add W3
2) I have to have at least one lock
3) I have to have at least one artifact removal
4) I have to have Yarden or Regis to counter MO and SK (and after a few games realises that with the [Nope]ing tempo they generate in R1, I can't have the last say and those cards are not winning me games. In games I can go last, I already don't need them. What do I do now? Remove them or keep them?
5) Screw this. Just play with your present deck for dailies.

While probably an SK deck builder goes and does this (I never built an SK deck, but I am pretty sure this is their thought process)
Irrespective of the leaders
1) Add Derren, Birna, Skald, Skirmishers, Morgvag, Cerys
2) Add Unicorn/Chiro
3) Add Marauder. If I can't go first, I can discard him (and does an evil laugh)
4)
If Eyst, add Jutta and Bekker for winning and some fillers
If Crach, add couple of Spears and Bloodthirst units
If Bran, add beasts and beastmaster
If Herald, add Two Blades, GS and some fillers
5) Back and Play Ranked

There is another argument. Its a Tier 1, let it be. Eithne was a Tier 1, what happened to her? Reveal was Tier 1, what happened to it? Wasn't Discard meant to be Bran's archetype? When did you last see Bran? All we see is Eyst and Crach using Discard. Come one 4RM3D.. don't say none of their other cards are strong. It simply isn't true. They simply don't want to make any other combo because this is just super convenient, super easy, super strong and super consistent all because of these discard cards.

I rest my case. If anyone can't see how and why Discard is broken and they truly believe that it is not strong, there is nothing more I or anyone can say.
 
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That leaves us with one point only and that's Skellige's ability to thin a deck to zero cards. This by itself is not enough to win games.
It kind of is though. Some games are, in fact, decided by draws. Finding your cards is sort of a big deal.

The strength comes from the resulting consistency, with the knowledge you'll likely get all the tools you'll need.
The strength is both Birna and Derran are effectively a stronger version of the Witcher Trio if they work as desired. That is, they provide both very good deck thinning and reasonable tempo. The only difference is the card combos aren't pulled as a trio, are more efficient, can correct a hand in the case of Birna and are less likely to force the player into using mulligans.

This doesn't make Skellige too Strong, though, it just might make it too... boring and maybe not in line with the philosophy CDPR had by introducing a higher variance.
Too strong overall, probably not. The thinning tools are arguably too strong. Mainly because nobody else has access to this type of redundancy to efficiently thin the deck.

Yes, these card combos can pseudo-brick. The ideal of tossing Mork and other potentially useful cards, which can translate to value in themselves, and kicking 2 Skirmishers with Birna isn't guaranteed. The only real weakness of Birna/Derran is you need to find them. It's not terribly hard to make this happen if you run both combos and 2 Skalds to play through pretty much the entire deck.

I've had Derran/Birna flop when playing SK. I've seen them flop for other SK players. It's highly unlikely for it to happen though. Likewise, it can happen to other thin tools used by other decks. The difference is SK has these options and nobody else has them.

The true problem, for me, is that every Skellige player is almost forced to use Discard because there is no better alternative.
How so? You're not forced to run these options as SK. There is simply no reason not to do so. The benefits heavily outweigh the risks. There is no better alternative because, if these cards work as intended, they're the best thinning packages in the game. It's really not even close either.

But the remainder of the Skellige cards aren't particularly strong, which means that thinning to zero isn't that big of a deal. If you would have the same thinning capabilities with NR Foltest, for example, then it would be an issue. Come to think of it, the thinning to zero might become a problem with future expansions. But for now, I think it's fine.
Sorry, here I cannot agree one bit. SK cards aren't necessarily weak or strong compared to other cards. If anything they have some of the most efficient cards relative to the other factions. Many of their cards are less conditional compared to similar cards in other factions as well.

Thinning to zero is a problem. It will continue to be a problem if one faction can reliably find all of their important cards and the others cannot.

The problem is how to fix it. There is really no simple solution to this particular area.
 
Aren't you referring more to the beastmaster deck then to discard in general? I've played several discard decks that can loop infinite, it doesnt'make them one of my best decks though, far from that actually considering the winrate they have using alchemy or create as type of deck. If the discard function gets nerved it will also have negative effect on these decks, which are very much fun to play, they brick a lot and that create-deck is totally random, but it's fun guaranteed. Bearmasters....well, boring!
 
Finding your cards is sort of a big deal.
Depending on your deck and your win-con. Skellige doesn't have an ace up their sleeves. Actually, that would be Birna and Berran. But after that, little is left. You've got tempo in the first round, but you still need something to win the final round with.

Mainly because nobody else has access to this type of redundancy to efficiently thin the deck.
Because it would be too strong in other factions.

You're not forced to run these options as SK. There is simply no reason not to do so.
Potato, potato.


The gist of it is that even with Discard Skellige is not on top of the food chain. Nevertheless, they do have strong decks.
 
SK can guarantee that they can always get 20 points out of them.
It's the unicorn combo that's broken, though, not Skellige. Skellige can just use it more easily. It's the same with Eredin and Mourntart. Mourntart itself is fine, but with Eredin, it's a guaranteed buffet.

Let's take an example: Skald discarding Morgvag. He generates 9 points. Now tell me which 5 provision bronze card can do that without any setup or any condition on board?
It's not 5 provision. It's 13 because you also need to include the provision cost of Morkvarg. Incidentally, Morkvarg is better used with Derran.

Now you can't argue that 'what if the opponent doesn't draw them both?'. Right? That is the argument for any broken card in the game.
There have been plenty of cards throughout Gwent's history that, when rubbing together, meant winning the game. The Letho + Regis combo in beta is probably the best example. Still, neither card was broken.

Another example: SK can always include Bekker's Mirror. It is an 18 point card (for Eyst in a single turn).
Ah, the top netdeck. I have seen it plently of times, though rarely can the opponent pull it off on the final turn. Anyhow, Woodland Monster can do the same thing more easily and multiple times. Regardless, the average value of a leader is about 8 points, which leaves you with a 10 point Jutta. And a 10 point card is not a big deal. Besides, any one-time-use leader is potentially dangerous in a short third round, not just Skellige.

So, Big MO and SK can play their game, come with a plan (or manual) and just execute it step by step and win most of the times, while every other factions should tech against them?
Which is why I've said that Skellige and Woodland Monsters are boring. Incidentally, they usually get destroyed by Foltest or Engine decks.

This is the thought process when I try to build a deck
You cannot counter everything, nor should you want to. Instead, make a deck that plays on the strength of your own cards and leave a slot open to complement your weaknesses. For example, I would never run Regis just to counter Monsters, unless I have other cards that can synergize with him, like Cahir.

I rest my case. If anyone can't see how and why Discard is broken and they truly believe that it is not strong, there is nothing more I or anyone can say.
I want to say: "If Discard is broken, then everyone would be running Skellige" But I won't say it. Anyhow, Discard is a problem, but not because it's too strong.
 
Depending on your deck and your win-con. Skellige doesn't have an ace up their sleeves. Actually, that would be Birna and Berran. But after that, little is left. You've got tempo in the first round, but you still need something to win the final round with.
How so? Which SK deck doesn't have a card or card combo they can use as a reasonable finisher? Eist certainly has them. Harald has them. Crach Bloodthirst has cards it can use as a finisher. There is a bit more play around ability there because it hinges on damaged units (unlike Eist/Harald where it's play card, play leader or vice versa). Bran is basically big MS GY consume with beasts and Bearmaster spam instead.

Yes, in many cases these aren't like what tall MS, Eredin, DW, Shupe with Emhyr, etc. can do points-wise. They don't exactly have to be though. Not when you have such a high degree of consistency because you can chain spam tempo+thinning.

How about this? https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...scard-archetype-my-proposal-to-cdpr.10990645/ Add more pressure to Discard cards. Make them order abilities. You came up with a good solution for Sihil, what would be your solution to Discard? (which will most probably be discarded by CDPR :p)
Pushing the cost up slightly on these cards isn't going to change much. It will be exactly like the artifact fix. People will just run slightly less powerful cards to fit in the strong cards. In the case of Derran/Birna it will be even less effective because, especially with Derran, you can just toss the cards you don't need or want.

Making them order abilities might be too much of a nerf.

Honestly, I don't think SK thin tools are the problem. The thin tools available to other factions are the problem. If anything, everyone should have similar options.

Yes, adding Witchers into the mix might create a problem. Simple fix, dismantle the trio concept entirely. I'd much prefer thin tools be in-house to the various factions. Pretty much everyone besides SK only has single pull thin/tutor cards. The difference with SK thin tools is they can thin by 2+ and provide card draws. This is where the tools in other factions are lacking. The entire reason Witchers are so common has less to do with the points and more to do with the fact they pull 2 cards and there are 3 ways to draw them.

If the other factions had 2ish options able to thin like Derran/Birna, possibly a bronze option to provide a touch more consistency, mulligans/card draws get "fixed" and we get back blacklisting the consistency would probably be in a good spot.
 
I think Bran can easily go with 0 mulligan and without doing damage when discarding cards. The discard mechanic itself is fine, played 5 games with my new discard deck and lost them all, in fact I had to forfeit multiple times with 4 card left in the hand. Changing the provisionscosts will totally kill some of my discard decks, since they in fact already got nerved when Eithe got nerved (just like I had to delete my dragon artifact-deck that whiped its behind with Eithe-controll). Anyway, your problem isn't the discard mechanic. Like I said, forfeiting multiple times with 3-4 cards left in hand at round 3.
 
the problem is that other factions dont have cheap thinning tools, i dont want discard arhetype destroyed.