Speech Checks

[thewarsend]

Speech Checks

I believe this game should have things like speech checks, authority checks and things like that in conversations. (a bit like fallout games did) I am sure it will already have those, but I want to make sure.

For instance, shooting the enemy or taking the stealth option should not be your only two options, there should be a third option. (Like in the PnP game) You should be able to use skills like authority on your enemies and use it to make them surrender to you.

With a high skill level, you should be able to order them around within reason. (they should do as you say because they are afraid of you)

You should be able to take their weapons and their jacket for instance at a high (very high) skill level. Another example, as a cop, you should be able to yell at your enemies "I AM THE LAW, DROP YOUR WEAPONS AND ON YOUR KNEES NOW" and they should do that. (like in the PnP game)




What do you guys think?

 

[blank_redge]

If they use a similar model to Fallout, I'd prefer the check be similar to Fallout 3 (percentage-based,) rather than the Pass / Fail system of New Vegas.

 

[lv-426]

They add some optional extra little bit of challenge and help making sure that each playthrough feels different from the previous one so, absolutely, let's have 'em. Although I'd prefer the resulting rewards to be mostly just additional intel assisting you with resolving a quest, for instance by unlocking a shortcut or an alternative way to the resolution of the objective. Receiving bonus XP or being able to get your paws on gear earlier than you're supposed to should be the exception or really hard to pull off, either through checks or dice-rolling RNG.

I quite like the old-school Wasteland 2 approach with the 3 (Hard/Kiss/Smart) Ass checks but a percentage to succeed-based system like it's used for the (Lockpicking/Safecracking/Disarming/etc) skill checks could work as well. Depends on how punishing you want it to be I guess. I wouldn't mind taking my chances with a dialogue option which had a 75% chance to not persuade the corrupt security guard to forget locking a backdoor for you to slip into the compound or something along these lines. RNG's a bitch and in a weird way it's so much more rewarding to once in a while get completely fucked over by a bad dice roll and then having to react accordingly and deal with the consequences. In my humble opinion, of course.

Speech checks could also be an incentive to get the translator module or interpreter implant that was mentioned a while ago, as soon as possible.

---------- Updated at 04:00 AM ----------

Combine this with something like Shadowrun's etiquettes or the backgrounds you can set during character creation in some RPGs that enable your character to talk and respond in certain ways using street lingo or speaking with a corporate-like silver tongue and you make it even more immersive and personal(ized).

 

[Suhiira]

If they use a similar model to Fallout, I'd prefer the check be similar to Fallout 3 (percentage-based,) rather than the Pass / Fail system of New Vegas.

Agreed.

 

[Sardukhar]

Agreed.

Didn't you mean, "Pass"?

 

[Suhiira]

:fish:-----:fish:----- :fish:----- :fish:----- :fish:

Didn't you mean, "Pass"?

:fish:-----:fish:-----:fish:-----:fish:-----:fish:

 

[Calistarius]

:fish:

Oh so THATS how Kratos got that red mark on his face!

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

For instance, shooting the enemy or taking the stealth option should not be your only two options,

Very much agreed. Although, I would like the dialog checks, whether skillbased or not, not all work merely as gates to "winning" the situation, but rather as something that would open up a new path/s in the dialog. Something where you need to pay a little attention to what you say because even if your skillcheck was succesful, the NPC in question might not appreciate your stance of ridiculing or brownnosing him.

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If/when there will be speech checks:

Percentile checks where the dialog option is pleaing to the characters emotions and good/bad nature. Persuasion/intimidation/bargaining.

Flat thresholds when the dialog option is about logic and reasoning, correcting an err or explaining how X works.

In my opinion.

 

[Suhiira]

The problem with percentile checks is of course that you can save scum; with a flat threshold at least they can insure you have whatever minimum level of skill the consider relevant.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

EDIT:

Hm. after some thoughts.

KOTOR had flat threshold and it was the most fun C&C RPG I've played. Threshold.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

The problem with percentile checks is of course that you can save scum; with a flat threshold at least they can insure you have whatever minimum level of skill the consider relevant.

Yes, but that's really more of a vanity problem, savescumming. And should be avoidable for the most part if the responsible designer gets a bit more creative with the placing of the checks and the effects of the "failure states".

 

[matsif]

The problem with percentile checks is of course that you can save scum; with a flat threshold at least they can insure you have whatever minimum level of skill the consider relevant.

if the game is mostly single player, why is this a problem? let the player choose if he likes the reaction or not. it quite literally has no impact to anyone else. People are going to save scum regardless so long as multiple options are present that can give multiple outcomes.

I'll agree that a flat threshold is the better method though, although not because of save scumming. A percent chance means RNG and RNG is generally speaking frowned upon, and for good reason.

I'd say the only way a speech check system makes sense is by tying it to secondary attributes (intimidation, persuasion, etc) that are functions of primary attributes (strength, intelligence, etc), and being a flat value check written into the attributes of the NPC/character. See that giant bouncer at the nightclub? It's gonna require a hell of a lot of strength to intimidate him, but it might require less intelligence to persuade him because he's a bit daft.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

What's the "good" reason RNG is frowned upon?

RNG - in the right spots; speaking of dialog checks - gives the NPC's the abstraction of free will. You may be a master persuader, but the target simply may decide not to comply for what ever reason; you may be intimidating as hell, but the target may decide to riks your wrath; you may be the slyiest used car salesman in the world, but the target may have decided to not pay up more than what he's been initially offering. It gives the NPC's more characer. To savescum the preferred outcome is simply cheating; and comparable to metagaming which one does with flat thresholds through memory or game guides.

More over, in general, flat thresholds don't leave room for flukes or mistakes. It's far more rigid than RNG. It is always either a "yes" or a "no" situation, but never "maybe". And that "maybe" is what creates intrigue in the attempt at what ever, because you can never be sure with the odds. The inept do get their flukes from time to time, and even the masters make mistakes every now and then.

Flat thresholds do have their places (eg. strength checks, intelligence checks, checks for certain knowledge, etc), and they support a more methodical character progression better than RNG based systems; but the thing with them is that they always work the same way for the exact same outcome every subsequent runthrough, whereas with RNG allows for a possibility for vastly more varying experiences even with the same characterbuild.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Rather then % vs threshold the real issue is that dialogue are the most unrealistic in games. Moreso I think then even combat.

The way games are structured right now, it looks like pass/fail depends on pithy answers while it should really be a variety of factors from the moment you say "hello" and perhaps even before if they're main or recurring NPCs.

Not to mention awful body language and voice acting. acting tends to be more like "what it should look like" rather then "what is" in games.

 

[Sardukhar]

Well.

2020 dice mechanics are my favourite for any game - and I hate dice mechanics.

1/3 stat. 1/3 skill. 1/3 die roll. Plus gear. Yes, this means you can exceed targets.

Roughly, here's the math:

Average Target is 15. Average stat is 5. Average competent skill is 5. ( Some say 4 for both fo those. It's a debate. Anyway). Die is a D10, so 1-10, average of 5. Roughly.

Thus, before gear or spending Luck, you have 3 contributing values when you do any skill check, including Speech. Roughly 1/3 of that is RNG. The remainder is you and your gear choices.

I like that. Sometimes, you have nearly no chance. IF you roll a "10", then, yes, you can roll again. But a 1 in 10 chance is not reliable and for some skillchecks, a GM just laughs.

E.G. you are trying to convince the Ripperdoc's assistant, the very good looking, chiseled-jaw Michael Maximum, that you are in fact the celebrated Braindance star "Quad Rod" Rodney Stoplet. You have Persuade/Fast Talk 2 and Empathy 3. Mike isn't stupid AND he knows what Quad Rod looks and sounds like- your chance is either Very Difficult or Impossible, 25 or 30.

You would need to roll a "10" and then another "10" to succeed. Followed by a "5", if it was Impossible.

Gooooood luck.

So there is a chance element, but it's quite reasonable.