[Spoiler ahaid] Idea on how to fix the pacing of the story.

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The pacing of the story is perfect - for a book, movie or linear game.

This game however, is not linear and several problems in act two surface, when you are presented with your new health condition.


The moment Vic tells you that you will die, you are in overdrive to safe your sorry ass. Every main story and conversation from that point on is centered around how pressing the matter is and that you have to act quickly. This disincentivises you to explore the open world and to play side missions.

A small change to vics script at the beginning of act 2 would do wonders, without destroying the urgency of the situation.

First, let vic tell you that you have one or two months at best, because the damaged chip is not progressing linear but logarithmic (very, very slow at the beginning and very fast at the end). He could also tell V that strong emotional experiences sped up the process a bit (main missions)

This takes some pressure away from the player and allows for further exportation of the world.

Small change but it makes the progression significantly smoother and more realistic.
 
This game has a lot of problems, but this, IMO, is more a writing mechanic that could have been done in a better moment.

It's "the fake ticking bomb timer" that drives the player.

I think it would be better if they didn't do it the way they did.

In RDR 2, Arthur gets tuberculosis after doing some debt collect mission.

After that you can play for a very long time with him coughing his lungs out, without actually dying.

Yet it doesn't sound like a problem, because the urgency came up in the middle of the story, not at the beggining (like in Cyberpunk 2077)

If Dex's mission was near the end of the game, the player would never feel the biochip ticking bomb as a problem.
 
I think they blew their load (pardon the metaphore) a bit too early, especially in regards to saddling the player with fake sense of urgency immediately at the beginning of Act 2 - where the game pretty much just opens up and you start actually exploring and doing side content en masse.

They should have had Vik just warn us that something is not right from his preliminary tests and save the big brain cancer revelation for much later (maybe at the end of Act2?), which IMHO, would give it a bigger impact and not mess up the pacing.
Could even be a big opportunity to involve Viktor some more in a main quest that would progress throughout the entire Act (helping him research wtf is wrong with you etc.), until it culminates in the said moment of finding out how much "time" you have left.

Something akin to Pathfinder: Kingmaker, where you gradually uncover the nature of the curse throughout the game.

RDR2, which someone mentioned above, also did it well. Arthur gets infected, and there are minor signs showing that throughout the game (him coughing all the time), until it is finally revealed later on when the sickness has progressed for too long.

And there it felt really organic and impactful.
 
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Absolutely.
I however am trying to look for a possible solution that does not require a complete restructuring of the game.
 
Agreed, the ticking time bomb aspect should have come much later. Not the heist or biochip itself, but Vic shouldn't have noticed the chip killing you at first. Should have focused on the far more pressing bullet-to-the-head issue.
Then the player is relieved to have survived and will be distracted by Keanu appearing.
After the first few blackouts, you return to Vic and then he tells you you're screwed.

I think cut content messing up the length and pacing of the story really didn't help there.
Also some strange decisions I noticed about some big moments, where you're supposed to feel urgency as a player:
1. At the end of the heist, when you're supposed to escaped Yori's penthouse, one of the iconic swords you can display in your stash is located in Saburo's AV, while the game is telling you to leave as quickly as you can. Wouldn't surprise me if most players miss this entirely and never fill that spot in their stash
2. At the end of Takemura's questline, everything (including Johnny) screams at you to get the hell out of the collapsing building. The game should have given you several choices affecting Goro's fate. Instead, it hides the fact you can even save him
3. After the ticking clock starts at the very beginning of Act II, the player is let loose on the entirety of the city. As a consequence, the game creates a Fallout 4 situation for itself: You're supposedly dying minute by minute, yet most of the side content requires you to ignore that very fact. Then you go back to main missions and V is suddenly very concerned about the time he/she has left even though I just spent days in-game doing random shit for the NCPD and fixers that can't stop calling me.

Honestly, V and Johnny should have found out about 'their' body dying in Act III at the earliest. Hellman would tell you in Act II, but you wouldn't be sure if you could entirely trust him at that point. Probably too late to fix this though.
 
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Absolutely.
I however am trying to look for a possible solution that does not require a complete restructuring of the game.

One solution is inserting Jackie Welles line quests before the Dex's gigs (instead of the lazy youtube promo video).

And make Jackie introduce V to "fixer" mechanics, and that he made some calls and fixers would be in touch soon, so from the beggining fixers would call V from act 1.

Fixers are already a very bad mechanic. It kills that personal feeling that you get when doing missions with Geralt (Witcher 3) because you don't really know who the client is, you never talk to them. It's just another job, another grindy job.

But, well, if it is to fix the game without scrapping or remaking 70% of the game, here it is.
 
Magic word is "short term solution" to a pretty big logic problem within the games world.

I like the idea with more jacky.

Another idea would be to open up Watson a lot earlier in the game but that would require to cut johnnie's comments out of all those side missions he appears in...
 
Magic word is "short term solution" to a pretty big logic problem within the games world.

I like the idea with more jacky.

Another idea would be to open up Watson a lot earlier in the game but that would require to cut johnnie's comments out of all those side missions he appears in...

They could work on Valentino's in the first act too, considering that Jackie left them in good terms.

Their "lore development" is basically limited by what Jackie says outside Allfoods (Maelstrom's hideout): "They follow God and the Santa Madre, honor means something to them. You know what they want, how they get it, and what pisses them the f... off"

In reality, the closest thing I remember about them is a fist fight with Ceasar.

After the beggining, V could stay sometime at Mama Welles, while getting things together (doing jobs for Padre, or the Valentino's) and moving to V's apartment.

Probably Valentino's have some issues with 6th street gang that V could solve.

There's a mission that shows that 6th street gang deals with human trafficking, which could end up with Mama Welles being kidnapped, and V helping Jackie to recue her.

Maybe some mission with Viktor, with V helping him to get hands on Kiroshi implants. Or something with Misty.

Things that help the player to believe the relationships stablished before the Dex job.

There is so much that they could do to build the lore basis.
 
Absolutely.
I however am trying to look for a possible solution that does not require a complete restructuring of the game.
Just take out or change all sense of urgency. They ruined the game for a lot of people cause of the poor story structure, they made the quest line way to urgent which in turned had a lot of players rush through the main quest line just to see death of their character and hollow ending. All they need to do is have Vik say you got a Few months, 6 months or a Year to live. Take out any references of only having a couple weeks to live and edit out some of the other urgency. Too me Act 3 should've started with the missions "Play It Safe" the relic starts to act out more once that missions finishes and its kinda dumb to be doing side quests with the relic getting out of control, plus it also starts to get really really linear at that point.
 
Absolutely.
I however am trying to look for a possible solution that does not require a complete restructuring of the game.

nice idea.
What might also work would be to just remove the dying part. Vik can only tell that the chip is damaged and can't be removed. So the only option is to repair it, and the only lead is Evelyn. In Clouds we could then find a shard in Evs locker, leading to Anders Hellman. That gives the option to go to the Afterlife and ask Rogue for help. The blueprints Anders gives you would then allow someone (NetWatch/VDB) to fix the chip. So no more relic malfuntion.
The fixed chip would then allow V to enter JS memories at will and notice that some have been changed, portraying Arasaka in a more positive and Militech/NUSA in a more negative light.
Leading to the discovery that SaveYourSoul is a way for Arasaka to manipulate influential people and gain control of them, or maybe even replace them (clone with engram).
Leaving Embers we would then hear a news report about some import person behaving oddly pro Arasaka. Giving V a reason to attack Mikoshi as quickly as possible.
Other sidequests would give hints of this danger, like the Peralez-Experiment or Lizzy Wizzy.
 
Yep! I just posted in another thread about this almost exactly the same thing. Just change Vik's script at the beginning of the 2nd act to "I don't know what the hell that thing is doing to you, but we can't take it out til we know for sure. I'll keep looking into it" Then disable the relic malfunction until at some point later in the game they're triggered again and Vik contacts you "Come see me now!"
And all that time Johnny is still with you but neither of you are aware he represents your death.
 
This ain't the first thread complaining about this issue, but I'll chime in on it here.

This game makes me appreciate how brilliantly crafted Fallout New Vegas was. Spoilers below

In New Vegas you play as a courier, your story begins after being shot in the head by a then unknown captor, and left for dead in the Mojave Desert. You are saved by a good Samaritan and let loose on the world after you convince him that you are in good health. It turns out the cargo you were carrying was very important, important enough to kill you over. The doctor who saved your life gives you some hints about tracking the guy down if you ask, but after your check up, you are unleashed on the world, free to do as you please. Immediately you are given leads to chase and the town you start in even has it's own issue with a gang that you can decide to help with. The beautiful thing is, you don't have to. You can walk away from all of it, the captor, the town, the doc who saved your life, and just try to find your own way in this world. There's no immediate threat or danger, just a mystery, a very PERSONAL mystery because more likely then not, you want to find out who tried to kill you and why, but there's no rush. He's out there somewhere, you just don't know where. And if you explore the map and do quest, eventually it will only be a matter of time until you two meet again, a meeting which will kickstart the actual main plot and bring it into focus.

Don't know why they didn't do something similar.
 
As i previously said in another thread i personally have zero problem with pacing, day/night cycles are pretty long, in one day i can do a main mission and quite a few side missions and gigs while waiting on a phone call to do another, heck i can gotto afterlife, talk to rogue and go meet Panam and complete the full hellman job in a day if you don't include the forced waiting.

Changing some lines of dialogue, while doing nothing for me, if it helps others, go for it
 
As i previously said in another thread i personally have zero problem with pacing, day/night cycles are pretty long, in one day i can do a main mission and quite a few side missions and gigs while waiting on a phone call to do another, heck i can gotto afterlife, talk to rogue and go meet Panam and complete the full hellman job in a day if you don't include the forced waiting.

Changing some lines of dialogue, while doing nothing for me, if it helps others, go for it
It's not about thebday/night cycle.
It's about the pacing of the story and how the main mission disincentivises you to play side missions. Even something stupid like higher level enemies in the later main missions would have done a better job.
 
I agreed with the pacing of the story need be fixed
By totally different way...
The warning of relic, is a hint of no return point.
After the meeting with Hanako, V's health deteriorated rapidly, which push us to finish the story.
So CDPR give you huge pressure about V's health, to make the twist reasonable.
Even it will never reasonable enough for story building.
Relic should be a fake bomb which only limited your story choice, it's a story force, but now, it's a real bomb, that's break the rules and make truble you felt.
The motive after V got Relic should be in two different ways.
In long story, find the way to remove Relic safety. In a hurry, cut the wanted he have, clean the mess caused by the mission.
The Arasaka ninjia never followed V, that's pretty weird.
Yorinobu won't happy to know the witness still alive, even everyone knows he killed his father.
No one care about the truth and the proof, which has been shown at devil-ending.
The truth is, Saburo has dead, Yorinobu is the heir, he's in charge now.
Everything he said is the truth, he accuse V as the murder, V will be the murder, that's dirty reality.
We can see it even in the real world politics.
That's why Goro obey Yorinobu’s order, find V and clean Dex, even Goro know the truth. That's the game rules.
Yorinobu don't know about V and Johnney, he will keep the order to cover his word. And Arasaka will try to make V die as the murder, no matter the justice.
That should be a strong story arc and motive, but it disappeared, and force the Relic became the major motive and the real bomb.
Structure is totally mess, pacing of the story can't be good.
After that, the pressure of Relic can be reduce or move easily, because they needn't tell you V can die in anysecond.

BTW, I don't agree to add story before they stole the Relic, I know you want to see more Jackie.But the mission is the start of main story, everything changes since V got the Relic and lose Jackie, it's a obviously core twist. You can even seen the logo after that. If CDPR want to use the min manpower to build the max game, they should be cautious to add early story. Actually, they have made a lot of story of Jackie, 1 teaching mission and 2 powerful main mission. It's basicly as long as the rest main story Relic mission, Goro line is also 2 main mission, hack the Float and visit Hanako at Float Festival, and 1 small mission, room303. Then is the ending, 1 main mission.
Look the Structure, start : mid : end = 1 : 1 : 0.5 , and start part mission is much better than the last, you have so many ways to solve the mission.
 
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At the same time, there should be some timed quests as well. Like the one V kills snipers / fights with Oda so Goro can go meet with Hanako (sorry. dont remember the quest name). It says you have to kill everybody before the ship with Hanako on board reaches certain point but you can drag that quest as long as possible, which makes no sense whatsoever.
 
The moment Vic tells you that you will die, you are in overdrive to safe your sorry ass. Every main story and conversation from that point on is centered around how pressing the matter is and that you have to act quickly. This disincentivises you to explore the open world and to play side missions.

I really don't care for this argument. Because no game has ever forced you to play the game at break neck speed. I keep going back to this. Did Zelda Breath Of The Wild make you? Zelda is holding Gannon back for 100 years. You're memory is lost. I'm still going to explore the map, and not care to get to gannon. But you have the option to do that. A choice. At the end of the day, It's a game. And I control the pace of the story. Regardless if there's a "ticking" time limit. If they actually have a time limit on screen. Where it can't go away. And you using the time change feature. You'd be dead in minutes. It's either play at your pace. Or fail the game and restart from the begining in 2 days. Because even the games ending resets itself.

It's weird. They used logic at the end of the game. Oh, we don't want you to resume at the end of the endings. Because Johnny is gone. And he'll show up in the missions you didn't complete. But we can skip time forever and never die. Play for 100 hours and never die. Have it one way or the other. Not this pointless warp back. The only game that has ever come close to this, is Zelda Majora's mask. But even than, the game has things save and restarts you to the beginning. It's structured around time travel. This game is not.

Can you imagine getting to say Placide's mission. And than V fell on the floor. You died, save file erased. You'd rage and quit the game. All because you took too long to beat boss fights. Because you had a different build. That forced you to take 30 minutes to fight them. It's a fine line doing a actual time limit.

At the same time, there should be some timed quests as well. Like the one V kills snipers / fights with Oda so Goro can go meet with Hanako (sorry. dont remember the quest name). It says you have to kill everybody before the ship with Hanako on board reaches certain point but you can drag that quest as long as possible, which makes no sense whatsoever.

There is a argument to that. This game lets you quick save at any point. If this was done. And I'm not against it. Quick save has to be disabled. Because you'd saved yourself into a unwinnable position, by chance. It has to be played out as the secret ending. No reloads.
 
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This game has a lot of problems, but this, IMO, is more a writing mechanic that could have been done in a better moment.

It's "the fake ticking bomb timer" that drives the player.

I think it would be better if they didn't do it the way they did.

In RDR 2, Arthur gets tuberculosis after doing some debt collect mission.

After that you can play for a very long time with him coughing his lungs out, without actually dying.

Yet it doesn't sound like a problem, because the urgency came up in the middle of the story, not at the beggining (like in Cyberpunk 2077)

If Dex's mission was near the end of the game, the player would never feel the biochip ticking bomb as a problem.

While Tuberculosis was terminal in the 19th century, it was usually a very slow killer. It was not unlike a HIV diagnosis today in that people might expect to still have some years left. Doc Holliday, a famous Old West gunslinger that had TB (probably the inspiration for Arthur's diagnosis), lived 14 years before the disease finally claimed him.

RDR2 could have often away even with giving Arthur the diagnosis at the very beginning of the game without saddling the player with a sense of urgency.

That Arthur deteriorates so quickly is probably due to the time spent on Guarma & the effect of the climate on his lungs. The reason why Doc Holliday became an Old West gambler (and gunslinger) is because his diagnosis meant he could no longer practice as a dentist in Georgia, and the doctor recommended he move west to a place with a dryer climate. I'm not a doctor and have no idea if a dry climate actually has any effect on the health of a person with TB, but in the 19th Century at least it was thought that the desert air would be beneficial & that humid climates had the opposite effect. Assuming that Rockstar took inspiration from Doc Holliday, Guarma was probably intended to be the cause of Arthur's fast decline.

V's diagnosis is in a different category in that death is implied to be imminent from the start, and the player is then saddled with a feeling of urgency. Perhaps in retrospect the complications of the chip should have been dialed back a bit, with Vic saying he can do some things to extend V's life and delay the inevitable...but that they would need to find some other permanent solution or they would eventually die.

V: "Shoot straight, Vic. How much time we talkin' here?"

Vic: "Dunno, kid. Hard to say. Tech like this is beyond even my capabilities. I can buy you a year. Maybe two depending on how your system copes with the meds, but without another solution I'm not confident of your chances beyond that."

V gets their terminal diagnosis but it isn't implied they're going to immediately keel over, leaving the player to feel a bit less pressured to skip side content.
 
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