this is actually the point pretty much everyone here's made at least once. the discussion of what OTHER endings they would prefer (i.e. happy, neutral etc) is just us speculating.
and, going back to one of your previous posts, can you name an rpg with a singular ending? because I can't think of one and it sounds like an oxymoron.
this is actually the point pretty much everyone here's made at least once. the discussion of what OTHER endings they would prefer (i.e. happy, neutral etc) is just us speculating.
and, going back to one of your previous posts, can you name an rpg with a singular ending? because I can't think of one and it sounds like an oxymoron.
yes, exactly. and I would argue they offer more role-paying than Cyberpunk (especially Arkane's games where just you approach alone affects the world itself)
To anyone saying that the ending should be nihilistic because this is cyberpunk, do you know how the friendship with Johnny ending goes? It still ends with either dying in 6 months or assimilating with Alt, however just before that...
You march into Arasaka, one of the biggest corps, alone, kill dozens of men in the lobby, alone, take an elevator down to kill dozens of more men, robots, and mechs, alone, march up to the core to fight and kill the legendary Adam Smasher, alone, none of V's friends have to die in the finale, and finally you upload Alt who ultimately spells doom for Arasaka.
Granted V still has a bad outcome in these endings, but is this John fucking Wick ending compatible with the grimdark nihilistic world of cyberpunk?
If this is an ending we can get, why are endings where V actually manages to not have a personally miserable outcome a bridge too far?
* I want to note that I mention V "dying in 6 months or assimilating with Alt" for the sake of conversation, I was moving forward with the idea that Soulkiller doesn't kill V. It does.
this is actually the point pretty much everyone here's made at least once. the discussion of what OTHER endings they would prefer (i.e. happy, neutral etc) is just us speculating.
and, going back to one of your previous posts, can you name an rpg with a singular ending? because I can't think of one and it sounds like an oxymoron.
Resurgence of the "bad endings are thematic and meaningful for cyberpunk" makes me think a quote from several pages ago is relevant again:
If this is an ending we can get, why are endings where V actually manages to not have a personally miserable outcome a bridge too far?
* I want to note that I mention V "dying in 6 months or assimilating with Alt" for the sake of conversation, I was moving forward with the idea that Soulkiller doesn't kill V. It does.
Here's the thing,
I think a made my stance with my first posts pretty clear. I really don't mind if a developer/writer decides to go for a bittersweet ending. I wrote about the dark aspect of Cyberpunk (not the only aspect, fatality made an excellent post going more in depth) and how it molds stories in that world.
I like the idea of a protagonist fighting against impossible odds. I like the idea where the whole world crashes around the main character as they loose everything. I like the story about loosing yourself and what that means (exploring the question of what are you willing to do to survive and is it worth it) And many others that CDPR managed to put in CP2077 through their endings and story as a whole. (I like my hero story happy endings also by the way, I am not some doomer bro)
Retro ended up asking a rather interesting question about the Soulkiller and what it all meant. A lot of people and I mean a lot have pondered that question in this thread. Are you just your thoughts, your memories or are you something more. Whether Soulkiller makes a copy of you or just extracts you from your body (and later puts you back in through Alt). Is V just a copy and if it really matters. Who's to say that copy V isn't the real V. he/she has his/hers memories, would they even know. (again, game Soma had similar questions)
It's really not a good idea to force a writer, in this case CDPR to outright change everything about the story they decided to tell.
Forcing them to write a happy ending just because you want it is the same as wanting Judy to be streight(bi) or Panam to be gay(bi) etc. just because you want to have your power fantasy and jerk of to it. (romance wise or ending wise)
I have always been against those things and probably will continue to be against it still.
But not to take this towards the Romance discussion lets take this back to the endings and the story as a whole...
Why the story?
Because it affects how the endings play out or in the case of Cyberpunk 2077 the story and the choices that you have play no part in them.
Like is said in the response to Retro I really think CDPR had no Idea what they were writing wen it came to certain things and Soulkiller is one of them. (just look at the contradictions you have in the game)
CDPR decided to tell a story like with Withcer1/2/3 though a platform based around player choice and agency. RPGs
And yet through the game and especially with the endings they are lacking. (to be more on point, what I'm trying to say is that the diversity of outcomes is what's lacking in this game)
No matter what you say or what you do you are pushed towards a singular outcome.
Are there some differences with outcomes, yes but more then not they are lacking or outright non existent.
Characters for the most part end up at the same place they would've ended up regardless and that is more true for V than anyone else.
The main story is totally divorced from the endings. It wouldn't have mattered if V decided to go on a weeks long sex and drugs induced binge he/she would've still ended up on that roof.
Why not give players the choice if you decided to make an RPG game.
Help Panam and get her ending, maybe help Panam and get Saul killed thus leading to her ending being locked or even better Panam says she'll help you but screws you over near the end as a way of her getting revenge (she helped V only to get the salvage for the Nomads and left V to fight Smasher alone)
The Arasaka ending, why not branch it. Arasaka helps you but actually they end up using you as a test subject/guanine pig and lock V's psyche away like they did with all those netrunners. But if you managed to save Takemure and because he's vouching for you they actually try to help you and not only use you.
The writing just makes no sense or is pointlessly convoluted in some cases. Why is V still dying if he's not the real V because he's being rejected by his/her body and yet Johnny isn't. (in Vs body) Alt already purged and fixed everything.
if V is going to die no matter what why not have him/her be the same V and not a copy and have them die 6 months later thus having your bittersweet ending.
If V is alive but dying why not make a epilogue chapter where you talk to the people you've met during your shitty ordeal to save yourself.
The point I'm trying to make is that this game lacks choices. Yes, some people want more, some people want happy ending, some people are satisfied etc. But the thing that can not be argued that for a RPG this game sure as hell lacks choices.
I wont even go into what was promised. 'You can't save the world but you can save yourself', what a load of crap lol
I'm probably forgetting a lot of things writing tis post (war and peace length post) and maybe I'll add to it if I remember more.
But holly does this game lack polish. The base is solid but it's everything else that is missing
Mass effet 3's, as bad as they were, were all different really. Sure Shepard dies, well except in one, but you can chose who you save the universe, what happens to your crew, what happens to earth, what happens to humanity. ME3's endings were just horribly written.
Here, you die. Period. End of Story. Do you save Night City from Arasaka. Nope. What happens to your friends? Except for Judy and Panam they all stay in Night City. Night City... stays the same. You make no difference.
All your choices lead to the same place, your death, and you make zero impact. It's just a matter of do you want to do it right away and get it over with, or die in 6 months of a slow and probably painful death.
Other thought came into my mind, not about endings though. I do feel like involvement of Keanu ruined the game halfway. I'm certain that the game was halfway in production during 2018. But then Keanu was introduced, so they had to scrap everything they were going for and start over with half of the time left. Right? Because look, how long was Witcher 3 in the making? 3-4 years if not less. And look how much bigger in content it was during release, almost 3 times. Granted it is based on the books, much easier to make story, but then again, you have freedom in CP2077 story.
When was announced CP2077, 2013? Okay, let's say production probably started after release of Witcher 3, that's 2015. 5 years, okay 3 at complete minimum. And they released a game 3 times smaller in every aspect? With much bigger team and bigger funding? I don't believe that.
Other thought came into my mind, not about endings though. I do feel like involvement of Keanu ruined the game halfway. I'm certain that the game was halfway in production during 2018. But then Keanu was introduced, so they had to scrap everything they were going for and start over with half of the time left. Right? Because look, how long was Witcher 3 in the making? 3-4 years if not less. And look how much bigger in content it was during release, almost 3 times. Granted it is based on the books, much easier to make story, but then again, you have freedom in CP2077 story.
When was announced CP2077, 2013? Okay, let's say production probably started after release of Witcher 3, that's 2015. 5 years, okay 3 at complete minimum. And they released a game 3 times smaller in every aspect? With much bigger team and bigger funding? I don't believe that.
Here's the thing,
I think a made my stance with my first posts pretty clear. I really don't mind if a developer/writer decides to go for a bittersweet ending. I wrote about the dark aspect of Cyberpunk (not the only aspect, fatality made an excellent post going more in depth) and how it molds stories in that world.
I like the idea of a protagonist fighting against impossible odds. I like the idea where the whole world crashes around the main character as they loose everything. I like the story about loosing yourself and what that means (exploring the question of what are you willing to do to survive and is it worth it) And many others that CDPR managed to put in CP2077 through their endings and story as a whole. (I like my hero story happy endings also by the way, I am not some doomer bro)
Retro ended up asking a rather interesting question about the Soulkiller and what it all meant. A lot of people and I mean a lot have pondered that question in this thread. Are you just your thoughts, your memories or are you something more. Whether Soulkiller makes a copy of you or just extracts you from your body (and later puts you back in through Alt). Is V just a copy and if it really matters. Who's to say that copy V isn't the real V. he/she has his/hers memories, would they even know. (again, game Soma had similar questions)
It's really not a good idea to force a writer, in this case CDPR to outright change everything about the story they decided to tell.
Forcing them to write a happy ending just because you want it is the same as wanting Judy to be streight(bi) or Panam to be gay(bi) etc. just because you want to have your power fantasy and jerk of to it. (romance wise or ending wise)
I have always been against those things and probably will continue to be against it still.
But not to take this towards the Romance discussion lets take this back to the endings and the story as a whole...
Why the story?
Because it affects how the endings play out or in the case of Cyberpunk 2077 the story and the choices that you have play no part in them.
Like is said in the response to Retro I really think CDPR had no Idea what they were writing wen it came to certain things and Soulkiller is one of them. (just look at the contradictions you have in the game)
CDPR decided to tell a story like with Withcer1/2/3 though a platform based around player choice and agency. RPGs
And yet through the game and especially with the endings they are lacking. (to be more on point, what I'm trying to say is that the diversity of outcomes is what's lacking in this game)
No matter what you say or what you do you are pushed towards a singular outcome.
Are there some differences with outcomes, yes but more then not they are lacking or outright non existent.
Characters for the most part end up at the same place they would've ended up regardless and that is more true for V than anyone else.
The main story is totally divorced from the endings. It wouldn't have mattered if V decided to go on a weeks long sex and drugs induced binge he/she would've still ended up on that roof.
Why not give players the choice if you decided to make an RPG game.
Help Panam and get her ending, maybe help Panam and get Saul killed thus leading to her ending being locked or even better Panam says she'll help you but screws you over near the end as a way of her getting revenge (she helped V only to get the salvage for the Nomads and left V to fight Smasher alone)
The Arasaka ending, why not branch it. Arasaka helps you but actually they end up using you as a test subject/guanine pig and lock V's psyche away like they did with all those netrunners. But if you managed to save Takemure and because he's vouching for you they actually try to help you and not only use you.
The writing just makes no sense or is pointlessly convoluted in some cases. Why is V still dying if he's not the real V because he's being rejected by his/her body and yet Johnny isn't. (in Vs body) Alt already purged and fixed everything.
if V is going to die no matter what why not have him/her be the same V and not a copy and have them die 6 months later thus having your bittersweet ending.
If V is alive but dying why not make a epilogue chapter where you talk to the people you've met during your shitty ordeal to save yourself.
The point I'm trying to make is that this game lacks choices. Yes, some people want more, some people want happy ending, some people are satisfied etc. But the thing that can not be argued that for a RPG this game sure as hell lacks choices.
I wont even go into what was promised. 'You can't save the world but you can save yourself', what a load of crap lol
I'm probably forgetting a lot of things writing tis post (war and peace length post) and maybe I'll add to it if I remember more.
But holly does this game lack polish. The base is solid but it's everything else that is missing
Nobody says to change the story, just bring in additional ending as DLC with possible additional side quests (not entirely needed) that's it, done, everybody is happy, everybody can end their story the way they want.
Even altering the outcomes of current endings could be slightly changed by just bringing the factor of your choices during gameplay.
Every ending could be exactly the same, but if you meet certain requirements in the story, correct choices, lets say, in Arasaka station, after operation they don't say you are gonna die in 6 months and you are free to go back to the city, bam , done, nice simple ending with not much complexity.
You want more complex and deep ending, go with Aldecados and question if it's real V or copy of V, here done, just by altering dialog a minimum amount. And most can be done with every possible ending, except the shoot yourself one. That way we get like 2-3 times more endings and choices. They would be different from each other.
It's not a fkn rocket science, god damn, remove few dialogue lines, correct audio, done. Jeez even I could do it with some practice.
My problem with the endings is that none of your decisions really matter until the very end and even then they cannot change the inevitable. The whole hero's journey is meaningless. And on top of it the writers mock you by placing a copy of The Odyssey in your room in one of the endings.
The Odyssey is the opposite of this story, you have the same onset, but the hero is actually successful. Odysseus, in the story, forgets himself for a moment during the sack of Troy and insults the god Neptune. As soon as he sets out to sea, he is at the mercy of powers far greater than him and beyond his control. He often feels lost, yet he is also a stubborn badass, who never gives up and does not lose focus of his goal. In his journey he loses his friends, his crew, the grace of the gods, many years of his life and even forgoes on the offer of immortality. Yet in the end he reaches his goal. Unlike V, who dies in every ending.
The game also tricks you with false promises. It repeatedly asks if you would rather go out in a blaze of glory, or have a long life as a nobody. In the end you can have neither: if you pick the glory you still cannot
wipe out the Arasaka clan or blow up their tower or their super carrier. So what glory is there? And if you try to save yourself you still die within 6 months, either on Earth as a half-lobotomized shadow of yourself, or on the Arasaka space station while some lame copy of you gets uploaded to Mikoshi, a cruel twist on the "long life" promise and a punishment for selling out.
The game at this point takes the role of a moral judge, scolding you for
selling out to the Megacorp
. It's not the game's job to judge your actions, it's the job of the characters.
I think in the
Arasaka
ending your life should have been saved, but the cost is that you betrayed yourself, Johnny, Rogue and your friends, by selling out to
the worst possible megacorp.
They reward you with
a corner office and Adam Smasher's job
, but you are forever bound to them from that point on - this is pretty much what would have happened had Odysseus "sold out" to Circe (a sorceress who would have granted him immortality, had he stayed with her). It would have been a far more fitting ending.
But it gets worse when it comes to false promises: Central characters repeatedly break their word to you with zero consequences and at the same time the game forces you to accept whatever it is they suggest.
Alt saying "Oh I can totally disentangle you and Johnny"
until in the last stage of the game she goes
"Oooops, well actually I can't. Cause there's this thing about genetics that I didn't think about, despite being an all powerful rogue AI that can bring satellites down and take over the world's most powerful megacorp in the blink of an eye".
Or
Hanako Arasaka
being like
"We will save your life.....Oooops, no we can't. Instead we performed a semi-lobotomy on you and now you're disabled and will die in 6 months. But we will store a copy of your mind, if you sign over all your rights to the corp." (Oh and we also stole the corpse of your best friend)
. The game offers no option to say "I don't trust
Hanako and I certainly don't trust the thing that Alt has become.
Let's just burn it all down".
I just hope that the expansions somehow fix this story mess. And it would be even better if there was an expansion which offered an alternative story, that's just about V and Jackie building their own organization, with no chip or Johnny and some decisions which really change how the game ends for V.
I'm too old now to be squeamish about games and I can take my share of dark fantasy and dystopian story-telling. But this is still a game that is meant to entertain players, so there should have been a good ending too. As I previously said...maybe the expansions fix this and I hope that the writers learn that only offering dark and edgy endings is neither cool nor satisfying to many players.
Nobody says to change the story, just bring in additional ending as DLC with possible additional side quests (not entirely needed) that's it, done, everybody is happy, everybody can end their story the way they want.
Even altering the outcomes of current endings could be slightly changed by just bringing the factor of your choices during gameplay.
Every ending could be exactly the same, but if you meet certain requirements in the story, correct choices, lets say, in Arasaka station, after operation they don't say you are gonna die in 6 months and you are free to go back to the city, bam , done, nice simple ending with not much complexity.
Other thought came into my mind, not about endings though. I do feel like involvement of Keanu ruined the game halfway. I'm certain that the game was halfway in production during 2018. But then Keanu was introduced, so they had to scrap everything they were going for and start over with half of the time left. Right? Because look, how long was Witcher 3 in the making? 3-4 years if not less. And look how much bigger in content it was during release, almost 3 times. Granted it is based on the books, much easier to make story, but then again, you have freedom in CP2077 story.
When was announced CP2077, 2013? Okay, let's say production probably started after release of Witcher 3, that's 2015. 5 years, okay 3 at complete minimum. And they released a game 3 times smaller in every aspect? With much bigger team and bigger funding? I don't believe that.
I don't think Keanu had anything to do with it. When they involved him in 2018, he introduced a fantastic looking game that had so much potential. He was just a voice actor.
I think what happened at the same time was that CDPR went public. They needed an infusion of cash, and going public was a great way to get it.
But that changed the internal dynamic of CDPR. Gone were the days when games mattered for gaming sake. Where players mattered for enjoying the game.
Now it's games are a way to make money, and players are the wallets we dig in to make the money.
They went from old school Bioware to EA/Bioware, same trap, different name on the game maker logo.
Players no longer matter, stock holders do, and player happiness only matters so far as they will buy and keep buying games. Games don't have to be great, they just have to be good enough to maximize profits.
"Most dialogues (98%) have no impact on the story whatsoever" the problems with ending go beyond the bad writing related to that part, your choices never really mattered. Even if they add another "happier" ending option (unlikely), it wouldn't change anything, since your choices do not really matter anyway.
Reaching that happy ending wouldn't be based on your choices, it would be just based on the option you selected at the end.
My problem with the endings is that none of your decisions really matter until the very end and even then they cannot change the inevitable. The whole hero's journey is meaningless. And on top of it the writers mock you by placing a copy of The Odyssey in your room in one of the endings.
The Odyssey is the opposite of this story, you have the same onset, but the hero is actually successful. Odysseus, in the story, forgets himself for a moment during the sack of Troy and insults the god Neptune. As soon as he sets out to sea, he is at the mercy of powers far greater than him and beyond his control. He often feels lost, yet he is also a stubborn badass, who never gives up and does not lose focus of his goal. In his journey he loses his friends, his crew, the grace of the gods, many years of his life and even forgoes on the offer of immortality. Yet in the end he reaches his goal. Unlike V, who dies in every ending.
The game also tricks you with false promises. It repeatedly asks if you would rather go out in a blaze of glory, or have a long life as a nobody. In the end you can have neither: if you pick the glory you still cannot
wipe out the Arasaka clan or blow up their tower or their super carrier. So what glory is there? And if you try to save yourself you still die within 6 months, either on Earth as a half-lobotomized shadow of yourself, or on the Arasaka space station while some lame copy of you gets uploaded to Mikoshi, a cruel twist on the "long life" promise and a punishment for selling out.
The game at this point takes the role of a moral judge, scolding you for
selling out to the Megacorp
. It's not the game's job to judge your actions, it's the job of the characters. In the
Arasaka
ending your life should have been saved, but the cost is that you betrayed yourself, Johnny, Rogue and your friends, by selling out to
the worst possible megacorp
. They reward you with
a corner office and Adam Smasher's job
, but you are forever bound to them from that point on - this is pretty much what would have happened had Odysseus "sold out" to Circe (a sorceress who would have granted him immortality, had he stayed with her).
But it gets worse when it comes to false promises: Central characters repeatedly break their word to you with zero consequences and at the same time the game forces you to accept whatever it is they suggest.
Alt saying "Oh I can totally disentangle you and Johnny"
until in the last stage of the game she goes
"Oooops, well actually I can't. Cause there's this thing about genetics that I didn't think about, despite being an all powerful rogue AI that can bring satellites down and take over the world's most powerful megacorp in the blink of an eye".
Or
Hanako Arasaka
being like "
We will save your life.....Oooops, no we can't. Instead we performed a semi-lobotomy on you and now you're disabled and will die in 6 months. But we will store a copy of your mind, if you sign over all your rights to the corp." (Oh and we also stole the corpse of your best friend)
. The game offers no option to say "I don't trust
Hanako and I certainly don't trust the thing that Alt has become.
Let's just burn it all down".
I just hope that the expansions somehow fix this story mess. And it would be even better if there was an expansion which offered an alternative story, that's just about V and Jackie building their own organization, with no chip or Johnny and some decisions which really change how the game ends for V.
I'm too old now to be squeamish about and I can take my share of dark fantasy and dystopian story-telling. But this is still a game that is meant to entertain players, so there should have been a good ending too. As I previously said...maybe the expansions fix this.
I think a lot of this mirrors my thinking exactly. Choosing to help Arasaka sets them up better than they were at the beginning; the betrayer son is gone, the patriarch is back, and they can get whatever they wanted with the chip out of your head. This should've been the ending where V just goes back to NC alive -- the price you paid was undoing anything "bigger than you" you've done in the story, but the game suddenly decides it doesn't WANT you to roleplay. "Oh you side with the megacorp? Then fuck you, your reward is six months as an invalid and then you die. Game over, try again, choose the right ending this time."
Sure, any dev could do it. The problem here isn't the team, it's the management.
Everyone is complaining about how bad the writing is. It's not bad. It's disjointed because someone decided to take a pair of scissors to it and turn it from a novel to a kids book. That had to come from the top.
Someone decided to neuter the game and water it down, from the Odyssey to Cliff Notes Odyssey. That comes from management.
I will guarantee that after seeing some of the promos CDPR has somewhere locked in some vault, the original script that would answer all of our issues. We'll never see it, because it'll just toss more fuel on the fire and make CDPR management look even worse.
I love how the 3rd tarrot card, with supposedly a death timer, means jack shit. I literally went to final mission having like 20-30% of it. And V still died.
they went public a long, long time ago, before TW2 even. if it has any bearings on what's happening now, it stems from underlining problems withing the studio itself (i.e. bad management believing they are holier than thou because they made a lot of money once before)
I don't think Keanu had anything to do with it. When they involved him in 2018, he introduced a fantastic looking game that had so much potential. He was just a voice actor.
I feel like there is a chance that before Keanu Jhonny's role in the game was smaller, V was more in the center of the plot, and a player had more opportunities to affect it. but who knows.
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