[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[StarkHelsing]

So much theorycrafting about making V survive. Like I, personally, don't understand why he has to survive. Endings bring a very powerful message, especially if you do suicide or do corpo slave route or allow Johnny to take over. The dialogs, the messages, the music. It is a very strong message. Yet here we are demanding some "better" ending.

As far we can surmise - V was not meant to stay alive. As is original V, not engram.

But if we so choose to let engram continue to live, instead of Johnny, we are supposed to check couple endings to get more info of why Vs engram can't live in his original body. To answer that question, first we have to understand how soulkiller works and what engram is.

Checking wiki: https://cyberpunk.fandom.com/wiki/Soulkiller
Soulkiller virus is a program capable of creating a digital emulation or copy of a netrunner's mind, utilizing an advanced matrix recorder storing it in a huge database

So basically a kind of a "copy" of what you were at some point of time.

Meaning that engram is a "copy" of who you where, no you. Meaning that Saburo left copies of himself in each Arasaka tower over the world just in case and at some point will be updating each of them up to date(We can think of this because of Arasaka ending)

Now, onto why "immortality" is kinda possible:
Once again, we read wiki:

Relic

The Relic is a biochip invented by Arasaka. 1 Overview 2 History 3 Gallery 4 Reference Two versions of the Relic were developed by Arasaka according to an internal project report. The first, Relic 1.0, was intended for the commercial market and announced in 2077. It was advertised as a means for...

cyberpunk.fandom.com

And this gives us even newer piece of info - engram without relic should not even be self-aware. This raises a shit ton of questions I don't have any answers. Especially how Alt Cunningham is alive AI that has huge computing power and wants to expand it even more by assimilating even more engrams. Probably because some things behind that "Black wall" are giving her a hard time. But not the point of relevance here.

But back to topic, only version 2 of relic, one V got in himself, allows to "reincarnate". To a player it might seem like it is straight up reincarnation or plain moving from one body to another. But it is not, why? Because unlike "Cortial Stack" from "Altered Carbon" that allows to move you from one body to any other, Soulkiller or engram with relic v2 does not do it. Meaning that if you, or in our case V, dies, that engram that becomes self-aware - who the fuck is that? Like seriously? I don't have an answer.

Why V can't go back to his body if we wipe Johnny's engram from him? Because his engram is a copy of V after it was altered by Johnny. So well, even a copy of V is still affected by what Johnny was. If we listen to their dialogs, especially in Arasaka or Panams endings, we will get to know that, firstly Relic does reconfiguration of Vs body. Meaning that it adjusts host body to engram on chip. Why this happened? Because gonk's body got a bullet in there and died with chip inside, so chip still having some power in it went to work. Being experimental and not fully working thing all of this is unexpected to even the author of this Relic. This leads us to a valid thought that if Hellman or anyone else creates another copy of this same Relic and fills it with Vs engram, then we take some recently dead body and damage brain(while planting chip before) or maybe just take dead body and that would be enough. This will solve our ending problem.

Real question is, is it worth it?

It boils down to this, for a game that is built upon survival, where you the player are fighting hard because you're under the impression that you need to survive, the fact that you can't is a failure to some. You're geared up to fail. It goes against the whole journey, the reasoning behind it all.

Why sell me a game where the baseline of the plot is to 'survive' but in reality, I can't? And not because I didn't try hard enough, or didn't give it my all. But because the game refuses to reward me - the player - for my effort.

 

[Simuxas]

Nope. Wrong. Go back to start, let me help you:


This is from an interview with Pondsmith on Dec 9th, 2020. I hope you know who Pondsmith is.

"Survive and do well"
So that was a fucking lie.

 

[hildegard_von_b]

So much theorycrafting about making V survive. Like I, personally, don't understand why he has to survive. Endings bring a very powerful message, especially if you do suicide or do corpo slave route or allow Johnny to take over. The dialogs, the messages, the music. It is a very strong message. Yet here we are demanding some "better" ending.

As far we can surmise - V was not meant to stay alive. As is original V, not engram.

But if we so choose to let engram continue to live, instead of Johnny, we are supposed to check couple endings to get more info of why Vs engram can't live in his original body. To answer that question, first we have to understand how soulkiller works and what engram is.

Checking wiki: https://cyberpunk.fandom.com/wiki/Soulkiller
Soulkiller virus is a program capable of creating a digital emulation or copy of a netrunner's mind, utilizing an advanced matrix recorder storing it in a huge database

So basically a kind of a "copy" of what you were at some point of time.

Meaning that engram is a "copy" of who you where, no you. Meaning that Saburo left copies of himself in each Arasaka tower over the world just in case and at some point will be updating each of them up to date(We can think of this because of Arasaka ending)

Now, onto why "immortality" is kinda possible:
Once again, we read wiki:

Relic

The Relic is a biochip invented by Arasaka. 1 Overview 2 History 3 Gallery 4 Reference Two versions of the Relic were developed by Arasaka according to an internal project report. The first, Relic 1.0, was intended for the commercial market and announced in 2077. It was advertised as a means for...

cyberpunk.fandom.com

And this gives us even newer piece of info - engram without relic should not even be self-aware. This raises a shit ton of questions I don't have any answers. Especially how Alt Cunningham is alive AI that has huge computing power and wants to expand it even more by assimilating even more engrams. Probably because some things behind that "Black wall" are giving her a hard time. But not the point of relevance here.

But back to topic, only version 2 of relic, one V got in himself, allows to "reincarnate". To a player it might seem like it is straight up reincarnation or plain moving from one body to another. But it is not, why? Because unlike "Cortial Stack" from "Altered Carbon" that allows to move you from one body to any other, Soulkiller or engram with relic v2 does not do it. Meaning that if you, or in our case V, dies, that engram that becomes self-aware - who the fuck is that? Like seriously? I don't have an answer.

Why V can't go back to his body if we wipe Johnny's engram from him? Because his engram is a copy of V after it was altered by Johnny. So well, even a copy of V is still affected by what Johnny was. If we listen to their dialogs, especially in Arasaka or Panams endings, we will get to know that, firstly Relic does reconfiguration of Vs body. Meaning that it adjusts host body to engram on chip. Why this happened? Because gonk's body got a bullet in there and died with chip inside, so chip still having some power in it went to work. Being experimental and not fully working thing all of this is unexpected to even the author of this Relic. This leads us to a valid thought that if Hellman or anyone else creates another copy of this same Relic and fills it with Vs engram, then we take some recently dead body and damage brain(while planting chip before) or maybe just take dead body and that would be enough. This will solve our ending problem.

Real question is, is it worth it?

You're making some fantastic points.

And as for your question, it is worth it? I would love for everyone's V to decide whether it is. V sacrificed other people's lives to get this far. In my ending alone, I saw a bunch of Nomads die, including Saul, for no other reason than V asking them to risk everything for her/him. You have to decide whether you're going to go even further and trade other people's lives for yours, or whether this ends here. You can just choose to suicide before the final mission. People will be hurt by that. But you don't get a chance to go to the other extreme.

V has good reasons to want to live and good reasons to want to die, but in the absence of an extremely solid explanation as for why she/he absolutely cannot survive this, it would be best to saddle V (and the player) with the decision over her/his destiny rather than impose it. Whatever the decision, a price has to be paid. If you choose to stop there, in a way all the past sacrifices will have been for nothing, and that can be a conclusion in itself. If you opt to survive, you live with the burden of acting in selfish desperation to save yourself. What we got is kind of in between, and it's just not conclusive.

 

[pEestino]

V has good reasons to want to live and good reasons to want to die, but in the absence of an extremely solid explanation as for why she/he absolutely cannot survive this, it would be best to saddle V (and the player) with the decision over her/his destiny rather than impose it. Whatever the decision, a price has to be paid. If you choose to stop there, in a way all the past sacrifices will have been for nothing, and that can be a conclusion in itself. If you opt to survive, you live with the burden of acting in selfish desperation to save yourself. What we got is kind of in between, and it's just not conclusive.

Then again we're not sure if he can or cannot survive this, it's one of the problems.
Does he find a cure in 6 months? it's 200% plausible in CP universe.
Not to mention this is their own IP, it's based on cp 2020 sure but between 2020 and 2077 there's a huge timegap, they have way more tech and the divide between corporats and the rest is even more evident so it's basically a changed world.

 

[tRYSIS3]

I disagree that all the endings are sad ones.

Yes, most are. That said, the Aldecaldo ending is the happy one.
True, it does not unequivocally state "V is cured of their disease and lives happily ever after", but the hints are there - especially during the credits. Misty's Tarot reading (The Chariot, The Lovers and The Sun).

The Chariot: direction, control, willpower
The Lovers: partnerships, duality, union
The Sun: joy, success, celebration, positivity (also listed as Success, happiness, all will be well)

The game hints a LOT that the tarot are meant to mean more than just something Misty does to pass the time. The quest implies there's someone out there to help you make meaning out of life (i.e. the writers/devs).

So in the Aldecaldo ending, where you "fight on" as Johnny suggests, that's exactly what happens.
I also interpret the recordings during the credits to have occurred AFTER you were supposedly going to kick the bucket, especially Judy's if you romanced her as female V.

You may take it how you wish, of course, but that's my interpretation. Or in other words for the endings (in my personal definition of "happiest to saddest"

1.) Aldecaldo ending - You go back to world of the living, leave with the Nomads and your romantic partner (depending) at your side. With the resources of a full haul of tech and the unique insight of those you encounter in Arizona, you manage to beat the odds and live happily with your new, extended family (also keep in mind that, for all intents and purposes, V has no family prior to all this and all other endings finish without them having one as well.)
2.) Johnny ending - Any ending that ends with Johnny in your body. A happy ending, so to speak, for Johnny but not you.
3.) Go Big ending - The one that see V's initial desire to be "BIG" in Night City as their main draw. Makes sense that V would spend their days going down in an absurd heist in the stars if you stuck to that "Want to be immortal as a legend"
4.) Arasoka Ending - The "easy" ending as it requires no side quests to be done, which is very telling that (using RPG logic) that it is not MEANT to be a happy or "true" ending. This can end with you in Mikoshi (technically still alive as an engram, sort of) or going back home to live out your final 6 months.
5.) Suicide Ending - The absolute darkest ending.

I mean it's either happy or it's not, if you have to write an essay to prove how you think it's happy then it's probably not.

 

[StarkHelsing]

In regards to if V is worth it, and if they should survive. Well, with the amount of destruction that V created. It spins this horrific tale, doesn't it? All that death for nothing? No, stopping now means everything is for nought, meaningless. It's certainly something that has you sitting on your ass trying to think on it.

 

[Hammerstein]

It boils down to this, for a game that is built upon survival, where you the player are fighting hard because you're under the impression that you need to survive, the fact that you can't is a failure to some. You're geared up to fail. It goes against the whole journey, the reasoning behind it all.

Why sell me a game where the baseline of the plot is to 'survive' but in reality, I can't? And not because I didn't try hard enough, or didn't give it my all. But because the game refuses to reward me - the player - for my effort.

This man gets it. Well done.

I already said this several times over the last few days, but I'm gonna sum it up again and add some parts to it.

In literature there's an etablished style, called The Hero's Journey. It features your origins, the challenges at hand, the hardships and obstacles to overcome and the ultimate goal. The tarot cards for example often feature familiar tropes used in the genre. This is often accompanied by the growth of the hero, be it in a martial, intellectual or spiritual way. RDR 2 for example has it, because if you take the honorable path, the game is Arthur's road to personal redemption.

Cyberpunk on the other had has none of this growth. You are thrust into a world, where nothing is granted to be true. Characters, story snippets, journal entries and mission promises cannot be trusted - the house has stacked the cards against the player from the beginning and the house always wins.

This goes directly against what was promised in the trailers and also against Pondsmith's understanding of his own intellectual property (see the interview quote from the last page).

Other examples, the game has pieces of world literature lying around. Hemingway's For whom the Bell tolls (Jackie's fav book) and Homer's Odyssey - both prime examples of the Hero's journey. They deal with sacrifice and loss, but also with courage and believing in yourself.

And then the game comes along and burns these books...

 

[Buckadoz]

This is from an interview with Pondsmith on Dec 9th, 2020. I hope you know who Pondsmith is.

Damn that snippet from Mike Pondsmith hurts bad. I wanted to like this game, and now I just waver between wanting to hash out the bad endings and never wanting to see anything about the game ever again.

 

[Motsie]

The thing I really don't like about some of the endings is the lack of permutations. They give you two options while in Mikoshi, V keeps the body, or Johnny keeps the body. The latter triggers 'A New Dawn' regardless of the path you took to get there.

The kicker is that this is 1 of 2 possible permutation - the other being Arasaka and whether you return to earth or enter Mikoshi. I can't do the secret ending and leave Nightcity with the Aldecaldos. I'm locked into the 'Nightcity legend' ending. I can't do the Aldecaldo ending and remain in Nightcity, betraying the trust of the Aldecaldos after they helped me. I can't do the Rogue/Johnny ending and decide to leave with the Aldecaldos, etc.

There's zero agency in act 3 because you just pick a mostly linear path and that's the end. It's so unimaginative.

 

[CasperTheGhost]

funny thing, i spent 200 hours playing this game, i like playing this game... however, i have no desire to build a new character. i told myself i would when they do a lot of bug fixing and whatnot, but i'm not sure if i will.

 

[tRYSIS3]

In regards to if V is worth it, and if they should survive. Well, with the amount of destruction that V created. It spins this horrific tale, doesn't it? All that death for nothing? No, stopping now means everything is for nought, meaningless. It's certainly something that has you sitting on your ass trying to think on it.

If you look at it from the outside, V is a character that either made the corpos much stronger, brought a terrorist back to life, or left many deaths/destruction behind. Does anyone want such character to live? probably not. But, that is because cdpr turned V into a fucking loser. The moment V didn't find a full cure, is the moment the story became not about V.

 

[Buckadoz]

The thing I really don't like about some of the endings is the lack of permutations. They give you two options while in Mikoshi, V keeps the body, or Johnny keeps the body. The latter triggers 'A New Dawn' regardless of the path you took to get there.

The kicker is that this is 1 of 2 possible permutation - the other being Arasaka and whether you return to earth or enter Mikoshi. I can't do the secret ending and leave Nightcity with the Aldecaldos. I'm locked into the 'Nightcity legend' ending. I can't do the Aldecaldo ending and remain in Nightcity, betraying the trust of the Aldecaldos after they helped me. I can't do the Rogue/Johnny ending and decide to leave with the Aldecaldos, etc.

There's zero agency in act 3 because you just pick a mostly linear path and that's the end. It's so unimaginative.

It is bizarre that the ending that is the hardest to complete, requires side quests, and is hidden behind waiting for 5 minutes doesn't result in the "best" ending.

 

[acakomandos]

Nope. Wrong. Go back to start, let me help you:


This is from an interview with Pondsmith on Dec 9th, 2020. I hope you know who Pondsmith is.

I didnt know about that interview....yeah heroes here survive for 6 monts it seems

 

[Hammerstein]

Damn that snippet from Mike Pondsmith hurts bad. I wanted to like this game, and now I just waver between wanting to hash out the bad endings and never wanting to see anything about the game ever again.

It does, in a way. But at the same time it also debunks the "Grimdark. Grimdark. Cyberpunk must be GRIMDARK and the hero must always lose" nonsense, that was posted here way too often.

 

[Chronoid]

Fun fact for you behind-the-scenes fans:
The writing team referenced this picture to outline the endgame for Cyberpunk 2077.
Source: Dude, trust me

 

[StarkHelsing]

This man gets it. Well done.

I already said this several times over the last few days, but I'm gonna sum it up again and add some parts to it.

In literature there's an etablished style, called The Hero's Journey. It features your origins, the challenges at hand, the hardships and obstacles to overcome and the ultimate goal. The tarot cards for example often feature familiar tropes used in the genre. This is often accompanied by the growth of the hero, be it in a martial, intellectual or spiritual way. RDR 2 for example has it, because if you take the honorable path, the game is Arthur's road to personal redemption.

Cyberpunk on the other had has none of this growth. You are thrust into a world, where nothing is granted to be true. Characters, story snippets, journal entries and mission promises cannot be trusted - the house has stacked the cards against the player from the beginning and the house always wins.

This goes directly against what was promised in the trailers and also against Pondsmith's understanding of his own intellectual property (see the interview quote from the last page).

Other examples, the game has pieces of world literature lying around. Hemingway's For whom them Bell tolls (Jackie's fav book) and Homer's Odyssey - both prime examples of the Hero's journey. They deal with sacrifice and loss, but also with courage and believing in yourself.

And then the game comes along and burns these books...

Exactly; right now the way things stand the only narrative I'm getting from the story is this. 'Don't bother, you achieve nothing and all you bring is death, destruction and inevitable pain.'

If they're trying to sell me a story of depression and how you can't win against the 'house' they're slowly achieving it.

 

[ddz1rt]

Nope. Wrong. Go back to start, let me help you:


This is from an interview with Pondsmith on Dec 9th, 2020. I hope you know who Pondsmith is.

So, well, might as well read all there is in wiki, purchase tabletop guide lines. Check all what Pondsmith has to say.

Wont change the fact, that Cyberpunk world is ruled by CORPOs. Standing up to CORPOs never ends good to anyone. Well, even ones that have nothing to do with CORPOs, like Takemura or any other people that live in slums of any city, will get rekt by CORPOs if so they wish. People with doll chips - are run over by pawns of CORPOs. Very minor set of people have even a chance at better life. Like sister of a food vendor - and they get a "warm" treatment from neighbours. CORPOs can kill people without any CORPO protection without any repercussions. And nothing there to be done. While CORPOs themselves are working to death to stay in position they already have and go over the top to get better.

V - tried to go on toes with Arasaka - and here we are, claiming that V, and we, as players, are heroes because Pondsmith said so.

What V does - fights for survival and revenge(if it can even be considered revenge since that is unattainable for V in any fully meaningful way that will impact Night City by players actions) by going on spree of disabling or killing other people. Doing things necessary to get power and money while finding a way to survive. So for whom is he exactly fighting? He has no family, not even a mention of them. His friends are Vik, Misty, possibly Padre(more of a guy to do biz with) and Jackie(can consider his mom as well). No one of them, outside of Jackie have anything they need V to fight for them. They are pretty much set, doing what they want to and doing fine, V or without V. Only new friends or love interests can be considered a new family that will actually fight for V and not the other way around. And die as well if player takes them on a last mission. While player can just skip all love interests/friendly interactions or even go full solo.

So here we go again. Cyberpunk world is a place run by CORPOs, they win - you lose. Always. You can be considered a hero for trying to stand up. But like any other revolution, one person is not enough. Even group of people wont be enough. You can even think of Johnny as a wicked version of William Wallace from Brave Heart. Failed one as well. So try again telling that Cyberpunk is just about characters as heroes because that is only part of is going on

 

[acakomandos]

How did V make corpos stronger?

If you look at it from the outside, V is a character that either made the corpos much stronger, brought a terrorist back to life, or left many deaths/destruction behind. Does anyone want such character to live? probably not. But, that is because cdpr turned V into a fucking loser. The moment V didn't find a full cure, is the moment the story became not about V.

How did V make corpos stronger? How did V bring terrorist to life? Did V do some satanic ritual I am not aware of? V got fucked during heist, lost Jackie, got shot in the head, she was almost killed by Jhonny, she spend every day in pain, vomiting, and for pushing on and fighting she got death?

 

[pEestino]

I just hope devs that see this see the poll as "77% want happy endings." beacuse 1 and 3 are the same answer fundamentally (yes i want happy endings and, i don't care but people should def have one if they want).

 

[acakomandos]

How did V make corpos stronger?

How did V make corpos stronger? How did V bring terrorist to life? Did V do some satanic ritual I am not aware of? V got fucked during heist, lost Jackie, got shot in the head, she was almost killed by Jhonny, she spend every day in pain, vomiting, and for pushing on and fighting she got death?

Is this the message of this game? I am worthless? i created V, spent time od side stories connecting to my V to win death? Thanks CDPR more depresion in this truly and magical year is what I was missing

Post automatically merged: Dec 22, 2020

I just hope devs that see this see the poll as "77% want happy endings." beacuse 1 and 3 are the same answer fundamentally (yes i want happy endings and, i don't care but people should def have one if they want).

Well I hope they are bright enough to understand that "I want happy endw and wish for option for a happy end is a same thing. If not I really wont know what to think