[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[Barsenthor]

It's a social contract between the designer and the player that's broken at the last possible moment. Something that only occurs once you've already deeply invested yourself in the game.
You can't know until you've already played through just how little agency you had, that the game was never winnable.
CDPR have presented themselves as antagonistic to the player instead of collaborative, we shape our journey with them until betrayal at the very last moment. This works fine in certain genres of game because you've essentially given the reigns to the game and you're in for a shorter experience where you're really just along for the ride.

And to top it off it's specifically the worst for people who loved it and went all-in emotionally.

Could be, but on the other hand - Cyberpunk is a dark game, people here dies, whole world is a mess in looking for its bottom of hell.
Those endings are not bad per se, since it's not like V is being flatlined at the end, at least not story wise. Sure all V's are getting Soulkiller executed on them, but still there is a window of opportunity, some time that things can be fixed - either way by Panam, Alt or Hanako.

 

[Augurianius]

I don't like any of the endings (or rather the feeling they give me), but if I had to choose the least "bad", I would choose this one ... RELUCTANTLY! I thought about this, when I first saw it, and I have to somewhat agree. This is kind of a "merging ending", because V obviously influenced Johnny in such a way, that he effectively becomes a different person. So much so, that he even can finally let go of his hell-bent hatred for Arasaka and the city itself. Additionally he has to live with the constant reminder of V because, as he says, he has to live with his/her "fcking face". Not only that, as you point out, but also with certain other biological features, the brain being just one of them (think about playing V as female!). He also had literally palpable access to V's memories, and memories are an essential part of a person's individuality.

In the end however, this is the weakest variant of a "merging" a writer can come up with, because despite all these points Johnny still identifies as Johnny, and not as someone else, someone new. We, as an external spectator can ask, "Johnny, could it be that you've become someone else entirely?", but he does not raise this question. He very much keeps mentally seperating himself from V, as can be seen by him puting V to rest, by "burrying" her pendant, and saying things like "I have to stop talking to you." and "I cannot wear this any longer.". He clearly misses V. At least two times he invokes his/her name with a heavy sigh. So, what I wanted to say with this - for me this is not a satisfying "merging", because Johnny doesn't embrace it, and the part of V's conscience is missing entirely.

Hmm ... Having said that, however, maybe the Arasaka ending can also be seen as a kind of "merging", albeit one that is a little bit stronger. After all, there, we hear Johnny creeping into V's dreams, trying to again influence her, implying something of his conscience could still be within V ...

Well, the main thing there is that

1 - We can say Johnny grew up and matured not that his mind fused since Altiera effectively separated both of their consciousness or viceversa if you let Johnny do his thing with Rogue, that's why he says he's wiser after the whole V thing.

2 - Only in the arasaka ending does Johnny state that indeed their minds have been merged since by that poing in which arasaka is removing the biochip lot more time went by, reason you see V so dejected when going back to earth or on his way back to mikoshi, he thinks he's lacking a part of his new self.

That was well done as an ending not emotional or anything but well delivered, thing here is that the body was already altered and is more of a Johnny body rather than V's plus Johnny mentions that they're already "one" so not sure how split V and Johnny truly are by that point (really doubt that the devil arcana and johnny's voice are just nightmares V has)

3 - The smirk on Johnny/Vs face in yet another ending, Rogue said it before, when Johhny has that smile there's a plan coming (or more like no plan just go and do your thing)

I think this will truly end in a Mass Effect trilogy like scheme with a couple more games, or maybe just a couple of dlcs but huge content dlcs, all in all, keep saying it but I can't see this game more than just an extension of CP 2020's Altiera-Arasaka-Johnny tragedy, or rather, partial closure of it since the only way in which arasaka is well off is if you go with them effectively ruining all the previous work you did with Alt and Johnny

 

[StarkHelsing]

This is why I have a hard time recommending Requiem for a Dream outside of my more...artistic friends. I LOVE that movie but I feel a lot of people have a hard time getting past how "depressing" it is. Anyway, I'm with you man while I do sometimes like "happy" endings....um....satisfactory conclusions! to stories, I do feel that sometimes a "sad" ending works very well. The second my V woke up and Viktor started delivering the news, I immediately thought "I really hope the ending involves V dying somehow."

See, that's fine in films. That's a great film, you see it coming. Death is a disease. Etc etc.

Not so much in an RPG which forces your choices not to matter and therefore doesn't reward you for your hard work. I love that an RPG has a sad ending, where everything goes to heck or just ends bittersweetly. What I don't like is I'm - as in my character - is forced to become a martyr because of cutscene shenanigans. If I wanted to experience death from some sort of foreign body eating away at someone, I'd go turn on the news and jack into the reality that is 2020.

2077 is not supposed to be 2020. Seven outcomes which all result in death, death and maybe perhaps just a little more death, is just overkill.

 

[arcsirc]

if they wanted to make a far cry game I just wish they'd mentioned that in the marketing material.
instead it's make your merc, you cant' save the world but you can save yourself, choices matter.

 

[Sam_Vakarian]

See, that's fine in films. That's a great film, you see it coming. Death is a disease. Etc etc.

Not so much in an RPG which forces your choices not to matter and therefore doesn't reward you for your hard work. I love that an RPG has a sad ending, where everything goes to heck or just ends bittersweetly. What I don't like is I'm - as in my character - is forced to become a martyr because of cutscene shenanigans. If I wanted to experience death from some sort of foreign body eating away at someone, I'd go turn on the news and jack into the reality that is 2020.

2077 is not supposed to be 2020. Seven outcomes which all result in death, death and maybe perhaps just a little more death, is just overkill.

You just made me realize something, I can't help but wonder if 2020 has severely messed with/skewered how we're (everyone, journalism/media included) looking at cyberpunk.

 

[jahkin]

I find it funny that in this thread ppl in a few minutes come up with better plot, theories or entire story branches than CDPR did in 8 years. And i refuse to believe that. There has to be an explanation like tossing the established story out the window in 2018 or 2019 and try to cut the pieces together to fit more johnny silverhand content into it.

Cause if fans can do it better in less time..... why the fuck aren't we all writers and making money exactly?

Were you around ca. 2012? Bringing up Mass Effect3 again ...

The forums were full of theories. Entire flashbacks/dreamsequences of Shepard were analyzed. And a lot of people married themselves to a theory that went that almost all prior to the ending where Shepard meets a ghostly appariton who claims to be spokesperson of the evil undefeatable Reaper-cthulu Aliens was merely an illusion. And that Bioware did all of this on purpose and the final "true" chapter of ME3 would follow later...yeah...maybe in 2 years with Mass Effect4(5) it will indeed be the case after all ..

And to this day - it would actually make sense, this indoctrination theory. Because unlike the aforementioned starchild, that theory was supported by lore and how the mechanics of "indoctrination" works (basically everyone, including Shepard having Reaper-Tech in her body, would slowly getting brainwashed without realizing by the Reapers to do their bidding)

Not the only theory. But indeed fans back then came up with tremendous ideas, and tried to find logic in what Bioware wrote, hints, and hope for more to come...

The easy explanation however was: There was no elaborate plan. Bioware had changed leadwriters, and was under pressure by EA to release the game earlier than it was finished...

Sounds ... familiar?

I love reading the posts in this thread. But at the end of the day, I doubt CD Red is clever enough that anything in thos eregards would ever find its way into a DLC.

To me, at this moment, CD Red simply wanted an Ending. Or Endings. And keep it "mature" and "philosophical", "memorable".

In a way, they succeeded. THis thread, these posts, endless discussions not only how stupid CD red is, but also about transhumanism, the nature of the soul etc. In a way, good job.

Doesn't change the fact to me that unchangeable fate of death in six months no matter what we and V do and suffer through is bullshit. Not a very philosophical or thought-provoking opinion of me. But to me, games are entertainment to feel "good"...this game, made me depressed. Also memorable...a memory one rather would have wiped though...

 

[StarkHelsing]

You just made me realize something, I can't help but wonder if 2020 has severely messed with/skewered how we're (everyone, journalism/media included) looking at cyberpunk.

Oh definitely, if anything it's why I'm a little more critical of these endings. Like really, you pushed out the 'Your reward is death' rpg for now? In a time where people have been waiting for this game for so long, with all the cut content etc, we get these endings. People play games for escapism, you watch a sad film when you want to feel emotion and sadness. In a time where the whole world is sad and chances are you're a bit bummed out as well, playing a game that you've been waiting for years for and then wham DEPRESSION. It's not good. I'm even less likely to be accepting of being forced to die in-game during these times.

 

[Barsenthor]

I think this will truly end in a Mass Effect trilogy like scheme with a couple more games, or maybe just a couple of dlcs but huge content dlcs, all in all, keep saying it but I can't see this game more than just an extension of CP 2020's Altiera-Arasaka-Johnny tragedy, or rather, partial closure of it since the only way in which arasaka is well off is if you go with them effectively ruining all the previous work you did with Alt and Johnny

Ruining? Hardly, it can be easily fix with backstory. Alt never cared for Johnny for very good reasons- not when she was alive and especially not when she become AI, which she even stated, that Alt Johnny knows exists no longer, now it's just a data.
She is still there, she is still plotting to get into Mikoshi (she said that they literaly have a black ICE with her name on it). She will probably play a large part in the next chapter since she is still on board and she had a proper exposition in the main quest.

ME trilogy was always a trilogy, with definitive beginning (Vermiare) middle with revelations/plot twists (cycles and reapers) and ending (battle of Earth, Crucible).
This is PnP game like Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights. One hero dies another is born, life/world goes on.

 

[Blaz1us]

I also stumbled upon this great article from 2015. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-08-17-inside-the-witcher-3-launch
Highly suggest to read from start to finish. The pre release parts highly resemble Cyberpunk for one but I'd like to focus on post release/future as we are doing now . Some interesting points I would like to bring up:

Konrad Tomaszkiewicz (VP of game development , Design Director on CP77) remembers the first review, and twiddling his thumbs as the 4pm embargo approached. A link to the GameSpot review came through from marketing. "I shouted to the guys, 'It's there! It's there! It's the first review!' I open it and it was 10/10, and in the whole studio it was so loud - we just jumped on each other and it was a really cool moment, because we knew that we had bugs but they saw something more in the game, not only the game itself. And for everyone who works in CD Projekt Red that was the most important thing: to create something unique, to create something that would mean more than the game." - seems familiar ?

"But reviews and pre-orders are only a guide: what really matters is what the gaming public makes of it. What the forums say, and what the general buzz is. In other words, what happens from midnight tonight. "For us it's a huge step," Badowski says. "This is my 13th year here and this is my magnum opus. This is it. We are launching." " - Very well said by the writer of this article!

Just to make one thing clear," Iwiński chimes in, "there's quite a long support planned for The Witcher 3 still, so we're not abandoning people. For The Witcher 1 and 2 we were supporting the game for roughly two years each, and that's the same [here]. When people shell out fifty quid for The Witcher 3, we owe them a lot, and we are there to support them. Of course it won't be the full team: at a certain point it will be much smaller."
What we have as the slogan of our studio is that 'we are rebels'," Iwiński says. "Rebels, underdogs - I think it's a state of mind. The moment we start becoming conservative [and] stop taking creative risks and business risks, and stop being true to what we're doing, that's when we should worry. And I am not worried. Our values and our care for what we are doing and - hopefully what gamers would agree with - care for gamers is what drives this company forward. Whether we are big or small, we have a multiplatform open-world game or just a PC release, the game and our deeds are what counts, not the fact that we are perceived by some as the big guys.

"It's my personal horror to become a faceless behemoth of game development or publishing or whatnot," he adds. "As long as I am here I will be fighting for this not to happen."

This combined with the recent conference call I'd say we will definitely get something that should rectify the main feedback about the game in allways including story , technical, features.

 

[Icinix]

Now now, don't be like that....

...BioWare also gave us a green option we didn't get here.

 

[jahkin]

One dev said recently the main story is done and no DLC will "fill gaps created by the endings"

Which is a bummer. One can hope that plans change though. I mean, I would totally bet money that Bioware never planned the "Citadel" DLC to pull on the heartstrings of people dissapointed by the endings and lack of opportunity to say goodbye to crewmates. It ddidn't change the ending though...

What CD Red said in regards to DLC sounds more like mid-game DLC, "optional stories"... which however to me make not much sense if such a story takes place while "V" is supposed to find a cure asap before Johnny takes her over...I mean, sure, I do side gigs all the time, but it would still feel "weird" to follow a several hour storyline totally seperate from the main story, and hten go back to "hey, shit, there was Johnnycancer in my brain, better get bakc finding Hellmann and the Voodoo Boyzinthehood!"

What I would love if CD Red indeed ads such a storyline, but still ties it "optionally" to the endings. What I mean is: you play this mid-game-DLC and the events, the people you meet there etc, give you additional options during the main game endgame.

Like, dunno, instead of asking the Nomads for help, you can ask the DLC-People for help, which would lead to a totally different, maybe more positive outcome...

Probably not gonna happen, I know...but yeah, one can dream...its X-Mas after all...

 

[arcsirc]

To me, at this moment, CD Red simply wanted an Ending. Or Endings. And keep it "mature" and "philosophical", "memorable".

In a way, they succeeded. THis thread, these posts, endless discussions not only how stupid CD red is, but also about transhumanism, the nature of the soul etc. In a way, good job.

If anything the 6 month timer essentially obscures these topics because of how front and centre it is. Those topics should be what all the forum navel gazing revolves around but instead they give you the farcical we copied you then gave your copy another terminal illness haha!!

 

[Augurianius]

Ruining? Hardly, it can be easily fix with backstory. Alt never cared for Johnny - not when she was alive and especially not when she become AI, which she even stated, that Alt Johnny knows exists no longer, now it's just a data.
She is still there, she is still plotting to get into Mikoshi (she said that they literaly have a black ICE with her name on it). She will probably play a large part in the next chapter since she is still on board and she had a proper exposition in the main quest.

ME trilogy was always a trilogy, with definitive beginning (Vermiare) middle with revelations/plot twists (cycles and reapers) and ending (battle of Earth, Crucible).
This is PnP game like Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights. One hero dies another is born, life/world goes on.

Would be rather lazy writing if so, she does state that she's different but then has certain human reactions, but she's definitely been changed from what she was, 50+ years as an AI surviving as pure data beyond the blackwall should've changed her even if she was the best netrunner, plus, she did try to let Johnny know she was alive.

But yeah, BG/NN pretty much is the setting I get from this game, just that the focus seems to be on closing CP2020's previous story introducing V as a new Solo to night city, just that it's done rather hastily.

 

[Anrix1]

Ruining? Hardly, it can be easily fix with backstory. Alt never cared for Johnny - not when she was alive and especially not when she become AI, which she even stated, that Alt Johnny knows exists no longer, now it's just a data.
She is still there, she is still plotting to get into Mikoshi (she said that they literaly have a black ICE with her name on it). She will probably play a large part in the next chapter since she is still on board and she had a proper exposition in the main quest.

ME trilogy was always a trilogy, with definitive beginning (Vermiare) middle with revelations/plot twists (cycles and reapers) and ending (battle of Earth, Crucible).
This is PnP game like Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights. One hero dies another is born, life/world goes on.

No gonna lie here if they ditch V cause of all of this bs I am done with CDPR in general.
I have no desire to play a character that is not V but I suppose that is a me problem.
Not to mention if this is how they did V what's to stop them from doing this to another character.

 

[lokozar]

I also stumbled upon this great article from 2015. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-08-17-inside-the-witcher-3-launch
Highly suggest to read from start to finish. The pre release parts highly resemble Cyberpunk for one but I'd like to focus on post release/future as we are doing now . Some interesting points I would like to bring up:

Konrad Tomaszkiewicz (VP of game development , Design Director on CP77) remembers the first review, and twiddling his thumbs as the 4pm embargo approached. A link to the GameSpot review came through from marketing. "I shouted to the guys, 'It's there! It's there! It's the first review!' I open it and it was 10/10, and in the whole studio it was so loud - we just jumped on each other and it was a really cool moment, because we knew that we had bugs but they saw something more in the game, not only the game itself. And for everyone who works in CD Projekt Red that was the most important thing: to create something unique, to create something that would mean more than the game." - seems familiar ?

"But reviews and pre-orders are only a guide: what really matters is what the gaming public makes of it. What the forums say, and what the general buzz is. In other words, what happens from midnight tonight. "For us it's a huge step," Badowski says. "This is my 13th year here and this is my magnum opus. This is it. We are launching." " - Very well said by the writer of this article!

Just to make one thing clear," Iwiński chimes in, "there's quite a long support planned for The Witcher 3 still, so we're not abandoning people. For The Witcher 1 and 2 we were supporting the game for roughly two years each, and that's the same [here]. When people shell out fifty quid for The Witcher 3, we owe them a lot, and we are there to support them. Of course it won't be the full team: at a certain point it will be much smaller."
What we have as the slogan of our studio is that 'we are rebels'," Iwiński says. "Rebels, underdogs - I think it's a state of mind. The moment we start becoming conservative [and] stop taking creative risks and business risks, and stop being true to what we're doing, that's when we should worry. And I am not worried. Our values and our care for what we are doing and - hopefully what gamers would agree with - care for gamers is what drives this company forward. Whether we are big or small, we have a multiplatform open-world game or just a PC release, the game and our deeds are what counts, not the fact that we are perceived by some as the big guys.

"It's my personal horror to become a faceless behemoth of game development or publishing or whatnot," he adds. "As long as I am here I will be fighting for this not to happen."

This combined with the recent conference call I'd say we will definitely get something that should rectify the main feedback about the game in allways including story , technical, features.

One can only hope ... In the meantime, I've finally decided on a forum signature ...

 

[Augurianius]

I also stumbled upon this great article from 2015. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-08-17-inside-the-witcher-3-launch
Highly suggest to read from start to finish. The pre release parts highly resemble Cyberpunk for one but I'd like to focus on post release/future as we are doing now . Some interesting points I would like to bring up:

Konrad Tomaszkiewicz (VP of game development , Design Director on CP77) remembers the first review, and twiddling his thumbs as the 4pm embargo approached. A link to the GameSpot review came through from marketing. "I shouted to the guys, 'It's there! It's there! It's the first review!' I open it and it was 10/10, and in the whole studio it was so loud - we just jumped on each other and it was a really cool moment, because we knew that we had bugs but they saw something more in the game, not only the game itself. And for everyone who works in CD Projekt Red that was the most important thing: to create something unique, to create something that would mean more than the game." - seems familiar ?

"But reviews and pre-orders are only a guide: what really matters is what the gaming public makes of it. What the forums say, and what the general buzz is. In other words, what happens from midnight tonight. "For us it's a huge step," Badowski says. "This is my 13th year here and this is my magnum opus. This is it. We are launching." " - Very well said by the writer of this article!

Just to make one thing clear," Iwiński chimes in, "there's quite a long support planned for The Witcher 3 still, so we're not abandoning people. For The Witcher 1 and 2 we were supporting the game for roughly two years each, and that's the same [here]. When people shell out fifty quid for The Witcher 3, we owe them a lot, and we are there to support them. Of course it won't be the full team: at a certain point it will be much smaller."
What we have as the slogan of our studio is that 'we are rebels'," Iwiński says. "Rebels, underdogs - I think it's a state of mind. The moment we start becoming conservative [and] stop taking creative risks and business risks, and stop being true to what we're doing, that's when we should worry. And I am not worried. Our values and our care for what we are doing and - hopefully what gamers would agree with - care for gamers is what drives this company forward. Whether we are big or small, we have a multiplatform open-world game or just a PC release, the game and our deeds are what counts, not the fact that we are perceived by some as the big guys.

"It's my personal horror to become a faceless behemoth of game development or publishing or whatnot," he adds. "As long as I am here I will be fighting for this not to happen."

This combined with the recent conference call I'd say we will definitely get something that should rectify the main feedback about the game in allways including story , technical, features.

Oh boy, gonna read that sucker up and down... or viceversa (and edit this comment more likely lol), but I'd say they rather failed a bit with Cp77's launch, I mean yeah, TW3 launched with bugs and issues but all it's elements were working fine, at least I can't recall having to wait fixes to gwent or fixes on the combat itself and while the AI wasn't the best in TW3... it wasn't as bad as the crouching tigers I mean pretty much every npc in CP77 when you shoot a gun

 

[StarkHelsing]

No gonna lie here if they ditch V cause of all of this bs I am done with CDPR in general.
I have no desire to play a character that is not V but I suppose that is a me problem.
Not to mention if this is how they did V what's to stop them from doing this to another character.

Agreed. V hardly got to live as is. In fact, we literally miss like six months of their life because they decided to make it a montage. After that, it's the heist, the death and the constant dirge playing in the background because we assume we're on the clock.

In fact, it can be argued that the most selfish thing V did was probably try and get a romance during this time where their bio-clock is ticking so fast that they'll be dead in three weeks - according to Vik. Like, what the hell? I wanted to be V who wasn't in so much of a rush, I wanted to enjoy the young merc who was doing everything they could to get to the top. I wanted to have dinner with Jackie and Mama Welles. Party, have fun - go crazy.

You don't get to enjoy Night City without the ticking timebomb, and I mean all of Night City, not the part you're locked into for some reason ??????

 

[arcsirc]

No gonna lie here if they ditch V cause of all of this bs I am done with CDPR in general.
I have no desire to play a character that is not V but I suppose that is a me problem.
Not to mention if this is how they did V what's to stop them from doing this to another character.

Same, for a bit of both reasons. Even if I played I would never be as invested which is the strongest thing the game has to offer. It's not a grudge against them, just an incompatibility.
My hope is that this game is an introduction to V, my fear is that it's an introduction to Night City.

 

[onurceyhan]

One dev said recently the main story is done and no DLC will "fill gaps created by the endings"

Can you give the source about it?

 

[proxyrev]

Something that would've made the Arasaka Earth ending easier to digest "for me" before dropping huge DLCs is to at least re-use already made available content...

Unlock that office space in the tower back for V ( As seen during the corpo. lifepath prologue ) and from that office, I would've received jobs ( go destroy that random gang meetup, simple stuff la) + a small message from Arasaka's exec. saying that they're working on finding a way to cure the 6 months thing ( a stand still for that imminent death sentence + cushion for future content/plot/twists whatever) + some basic closure stuff like looping in romances and open world exploring/"sandbox".

Needless to say that simple stand stills like that could've only been made available for endings that does not involve V either immediately "dying" and/or running away from NC. Dunno, I just hate that it is the void atm.