[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[AKANexus]

The sad part is that the only "good" endings at the moment are:
1. You allow Arasaka to keep you "alive" in a virtual one, waiting to be sent later in some body. Even though I hate this ending, I like it because I don't like Jhonny, both as a character and as a game concept that took my character away from being the main character that became Keanu Reaves

You know what's worse? If you do the hidden ending, you end up learning the Save your Soul program broke Arasaka's finances, and they had to shut everything down and get rid of Mikoshi altogether. So yeaaaah.... You still die.

Post automatically merged: Dec 15, 2020

Gotta keep hope high, the more people finish the story, the bigger chance we will have to make this thread grow and bring a change.

If they expand on the endings, only a couple endings could be expanded. Nomad, Casino and maybe Johnny takes over. Which means kinda invalidating the other endings...
If they simply retcon the endings, that would be patching something bad with something even worse...
If they add mid-game DLC content that doesn't alter the endings, I expect about at least 30% of the playerbase not giving a damn about it.
What still gives me hope is that they can easily add mid-game DLC that adds new choices that can lead to new endings...

 

[Buckadoz]

the point Motsie was making is that the tarot reading in this ending seems very positive and Alt can't read the future. thus, if we don't get any other option, this is a somewhat hopeful possibility for a DLC.

I agree that it doesn't solve the original V's death conundrum and it's a very big, fat compromise from what we are asking for here, but as I said, it's just to have a slither of hope until we know what comes next.

This notion that V's copy getting to live is a sliver of hope thing is bizarre to me. As far as I'm concerned, letting a clone V live out the rest of V's days in V's body is almost as bad as letting Johnny do it.

 

[AKANexus]

This notion that V's copy getting to live is a sliver of hope thing is bizarre to me. As far as I'm concerned, letting a clone V live out the rest of V's days in V's body is almost as bad as letting Johnny do it.

That would be a gray ending. It ends well, just not quite. Take SOMA, for example... You are the copy that dies, while another copy of you survives. To me, the 6 months to die is what killed the nomad ending to me... Letting Ctrl+V live on, while the original withers away is not a good ending per se.... But it's a different one!

 

[Buckadoz]

That would be a gray ending. It ends well, just not quite. Take SOMA, for example... You are the copy that dies, while another copy of you survives. To me, the 6 months to die is what killed the nomad ending to me... Letting Ctrl+V live on, while the original withers away is not a good ending per se.... But it's a different one!

Maybe I'm just completely different, but the idea of letting someone else -- even if it's just a copy of you -- take over your body and live out the rest of your life feels completely invasive to me. The whole idea makes my skin crawl. I don't see how anyone can see any of these endings as better than V just dying in the one man assault on Arasaka.

 

[jcfisher23]

I ran away with Panam to escape NC. I know I only had 6 months to live, but Panam said she had people on the other side that could possibly help. Since there is no way of knowing what happens after that one could assume they found a solution and I lived a long life. Your character is realistically a homicidal maniac hacking people up with a sword and gunning people down so does he/she really deserve a happy ending? I ran over so many innocent people haha. I wonder what happens if you run over a kid.

 

[AKANexus]

Maybe I'm just completely different, but the idea of letting someone else -- even if it's just a copy of you -- take over your body and live out the rest of your life feels completely invasive to me. The whole idea makes my skin crawl. I don't see how anyone can see any of these endings as better than V just dying in the one man assault on Arasaka.

And that's why that one of the better written endings, imo. It affects people differently, can be interpreted differently and fits perfectly on the Ghost in the Machine trope! While the others look like they were written by an intern which received an email like "Dude, we have postponed the game twice now. We need some endings, pronto!"

 

[Buckadoz]

And that's why that one of the better written endings, imo. It affects people differently, can be interpreted differently and fits perfectly on the Ghost in the Machine trope! While the others look like they were written by an intern which received an email like "Dude, we have postponed the game twice now. We need some endings, pronto!"

Sure if that's how you want to think about it, but this just brings me back to my persistent complaints about Soulkiller: it's never really addressed in the story in any meaningful way that original V is dead. Everyone posting here thinks the Panam ending is a hopeful one. Did the writers intentionally obscure that the Panam ending and the space heist ending are just as bleak as any other? Maybe, but I actually worry that it's more likely that the writers didn't even realize what they were doing when they wrote what Soulkiller does to people.

 

[BGM45]

This notion that V's copy getting to live is a sliver of hope thing is bizarre to me. As far as I'm concerned, letting a clone V live out the rest of V's days in V's body is almost as bad as letting Johnny do it.

I agree. as I've said yesterday, the fact that out of all the endings the only one that has at least some seemingly positive connotations is basically the same ending as SOMA's greatest horror achievement is ridiculous. and I certainly want to save the real V instead. but, you know, scraping the bottom of the barrel...

the only way I see a post-nomad DLC being actually tolerable is if they go deep into exploration of all the implications of Soulkiller and ctrl-V now living V's life. something they should've done in the game, not just gloss over. Prey 2017 did a similar thing quite stellarly in my opinion.

 

[Cologan]

I ran away with Panam to escape NC. I know I only had 6 months to live, but Panam said she had people on the other side that could possibly help. Since there is no way of knowing what happens after that one could assume they found a solution and I lived a long life. Your character is realistically a homicidal maniac hacking people up with a sword and gunning people down so does he/she really deserve a happy ending? I ran over so many innocent people haha. I wonder what happens if you run over a kid.

speak for yourself , my V barely killed anyone, non-lethal & stealth whereever possible

 

[hismastersvoice]

it's never really addressed in the story in any meaningful way that original V is dead.

Whether V is dead or not depend entirely on your interpretation of what the Soulkiller engram is. Silverhand appears to consider himself continuos between the pre and post Soulkiller versions. Alt Cunningham definitely thinks of herself/itself as continuos based on her answer to one of V's questions. So I'd wager the game considers V's engram to be, well, V.

 

[BGM45]

Maybe, but I actually worry that it's more likely that the writers didn't even realize what they were doing when they wrote what Soulkiller does to people.

yes, this is exactly what I mean. if - IF - we don't get any other option, I want them at least to acknowledge that this isn't all sweetness and light but instead a heavily loaded existential conundrum that can't and shouldn't be ignored (at least, in a mature story they claim to tell)

 

[kaz_ds]

The main issue with the endings is that whatever you choose it doesn't matter. The ending is the same for V regardless of how the ending comes about, that's what makes the endings terrible.

This is not a movie, you don't sit and watch it for 2 hours and a bittersweet ending is something you enjoy and contemplate.

We put in 20-30 hours and invested ourselves emotionally and otherwise into this game and character, and then in the end none of it matters.

For example, the Panam ending could have worked -- if you actually get to live out those 6 months, to see what you gained from this choice and what you fought for, family etc. But now its a credits roll with some monologue and a shitty conclusion.

The moon mission could have worked if you got to actually take your revenge and turn yourself into a legend and die in the process.

This way -- killing yourself is no different than going through the other endings -- you still get the same treatment from the game and the story. With some different ending dialogue.

Take RDR2 for example and Arthur -- it felt sad but completely understandable for him to end as he did. He wasn't fighting for survival, he was fighting for redemption and that's where you choices take you -- whether you redeemed yourself or not. The whole point of our story is to survive and we fail whatever happens there is not other motive no matter what the game says.

 

[Buckadoz]

Whether V is dead or not depend entirely on your interpretation of what the Soulkiller engram is. Silverhand appears to consider himself continuos between the pre and post Soulkiller versions. Alt Cunningham definitely thinks of herself/itself as as continuos based on her answer to one of V's questions. So I'd wager the game considers V's engram to be, well, V.

Alt does not consider herself Alt. Alt explicitly tells Johnny that he got the original Alt killed, ie, the body you find in the Johnny flash back.

Johnny considering himself Johnny is expected of the copy. The copy would have all of the original's memories and would essentially be V for all external purposes -- the sense of self that V has dies with Soulkiller. That's the "Soul" Alt refers to when she says that Soulkiller does what it says on the tin. It copies everything about you and makes a construct that is indistinguishable, while still not being you. The V that became friends with Jackie, watched him die, then fought for their own life over the entire course of the game, is eradicated when the copy is made.

 

[BGM45]

Whether V is dead or not depend entirely on your interpretation of what the Soulkiller engram is. Silverhand appears to consider himself continuos between the pre and post Soulkiller versions. Alt Cunningham definitely thinks of herself/itself as continuos based on her answer to one of V's questions. So I'd wager the game considers V's engram to be, well, V.

well, Alt tells it planely, "Your consciousness, neural engrams, will be recorded as data. The rest will cease to exist". sounds a lot like dying to me.

as for what it MEANS to be a copy, specifically to V, and by extension us - this is exactly what I want them to explore. not just have a blue throwaway line in a dialogue. like, what is "the rest"? the soul. then what happens when it ceases to exist? and so on.

 

[hismastersvoice]

Alt does not consider herself Alt.

When V asks her if they can retain their identity past the Blackwall, she says "I was a netrunner (...)". My take was that she acknowledges the transformative effect of Soulkiller.

 

[GreyRaconteur]

Alt does not consider herself Alt. Alt explicitly tells Johnny that he got the original Alt killed, ie, the body you find in the Johnny flash back.

Johnny considering himself Johnny is expected of the copy. The copy would have all of the original's memories and would essentially be V for all external purposes -- the sense of self that V has dies with Soulkiller. That's the "Soul" Alt refers to when she says that Soulkiller does what it says on the tin. It copies everything about you and makes a construct that is indistinguishable, while still not being you. The V that became friends with Jackie, watched him die, then fought for their own life over the entire course of the game, is eradicated when the copy is made.

Emphasis mine.

I think this is the greatest issue that the majority of people are going to take issue with. Not with becoming immortalized in some kind of data vault. That's a completely valid option for a one particular ending. It's also completely valid to allow Johnny to take your body in some effort to give him 'a second chance'(whether or not he deserves that chance is, well, up to heavy debate). Another option should've been to find a cure for yourself without having to die, even if you 'live' posthumously and vicariously through some copy.

If death was outcome no matter, what's the point in playing the game? The journey? The people you meet? The experience you had along the way. Playing a game where you're doomed from the outset is fine. Spec Ops: The Line did that well, and did it amazingly. Fact is, I don't think I've seen a game that handled such grim endings as well as that game did. But even in that game, there is a compeltely an option where your MC doesn't die. He can off himself, he can die by rounds shot by friendly soldiers, or he can just sit there and be rescued, but living with the weight of all of his actions that led him to that point(which potentially is a worse punishment than dying)

 

[Buckadoz]

When V asks her if they can retain their identity past the Blackwall, she says "I was a netrunner (...)". My take was that she acknowledges the transformative effect of Soulkiller.

Yes, like I said, the copies consider themselves continuations of the originals. Now do the same deconstruction on the part where she tells Johnny he got the original Alt killed.

 

[Melra]

Alt does not consider herself Alt. Alt explicitly tells Johnny that he got the original Alt killed, ie, the body you find in the Johnny flash back.

Exactly. "The Alt Cunningham you strove to save in the Arasaka Tower no longer exists. This should be obvious to you as you were responsible for her death." It's hardly the same thing and same thing applies to the V copy from what is shown in the game, the engrams do not really feel like the people that they were copied from. They are always a bit different.

"V just hops back into his body, right? Nothing changes." "Everything changes, you know this well."

 

[Argast]

Whether V is dead or not depend entirely on your interpretation of what the Soulkiller engram is. Silverhand appears to consider himself continuos between the pre and post Soulkiller versions. Alt Cunningham definitely thinks of herself/itself as continuos based on her answer to one of V's questions. So I'd wager the game considers V's engram to be, well, V.

But Alt literally tells you that Soulkiller will kill you. At best Ctrl+V is a perfect copy but the actual V that you're originally playing as will die. That's also what makes this whole story so weird. V, whose main goal was to survive, gets told that Soulkiller will kill him and he doesn't even react to it, but only says that now they got a plan. It's as if one half of the writing team didn't know what the other half was doing and thought that the engram of V is the actual digitalized "soul" of V instead of just the copy that it is. If there wasn't this dialogue with Alt, the whole story would actually make sense.

 

[kaz_ds]

But Alt literally tells you that Soulkiller will kill you. At best Ctrl+V is a perfect copy but the actual V that you're originally playing as will die. That's also what makes this whole story so weird. V, whose main goal was to survive, gets told that Soulkiller will kill him and he doesn't even react to it, but only says that now they got a plan. It's as if one half of the writing team didn't know what the other half was doing and thought that the engram of V is the actual digitalized "soul" of V instead of just the copy that it is. If there wasn't this dialogue with Alt, the whole story would actually make sense.

Once the game reaches the conclusion it's quite obvious that this is a massive oversight from the plot perspective.
The reason for not being able to save you and the goal you are fighting for make no sense when you look at them after finishing the game.