[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[I_Willenbrock_I]

This argument would make sense if she told you that Soulkiller was actually fine instead of warning you about the consequences of using it...

I would actually be a lot more cautious if she would have told me that it's not a problems at all.

It would have been fair if she would have pointed out that she does not know how it feels when you get back into your own body and that therefore, her knowledge is incomplete.

 

[Kashola_]

That is fine and I am not about to tell you not to have your headcanons. But I'm sorry I just can't change my view on soulkiller based on pure speculations. For me in order to have a reason to question alt, a character ingame, in the game universe would have to question it first.

It isn't just headcanon. Alt has never, ever, been in a body after being SK'd. This isn't speculation, this is a fact. It is an objective truth her knowledge when it pertains to V's situation is limited.

 

[Kikinho]

An AI is only as smart as the creator allows it to be. An AI develops by looking at data and calculating. AIs can get things wrong and that's also part of the 'Cyberpunk trope' is that they always go the route where they don't fully understand humanity. They end up calculating 'humanity' incorrectly.

Alt is basing her data off of jackpoop. This particular scenario has 'never' happened before. No one has gone through what V has. DNA and psyche rejection, what? What is she basing this data off of, 2020 information? Considering that she was beyond the Blackwall, where data can't go through - barring the Voodoo boys.

If AIs are always right then we should be concerned why AIs are literally buying up all the shares in space travel right now.

Well as the Dalemain questline shows us, AIs are pretty fucking powerful and can easily take place among humans. Isn't there like an active "war" going on behind the scenes to keep the AIs at bay? And once Delamain reached a higher consciousness, he simply lost interest in the primitive state of human experience.
Also Alt was a human, and as some said she still has some of her humanity retained. If anything I trust that she still remembers the change that happened when she was ripped out of her body.

 

[TintelFruit]

But at that point in the narrative we have no reason to believe that she doesn't have a idea about what she is talking about. Both Jhonny and V accepts it as fact. Not even later in the story anyone questions her view on it. Like.. the story itself never gave a reason to believe she has no idea. If anything I trust her word more because she is one of the core elements around the soulkiller.
I am really sorry, I mean no disprespect but your reasoning are pure speculations.

How about how she kills every voodoo boys netrunner connected with you? Or how she’s clearly designed to look inhuman? The whole game you look for different solutions before settling on Arasaka or Alt, those 2 options were both desperate plays from V so I never trusted either. But maybe you get along easier with murderous AI


the whole game you’re shown how everyone has a hidden agenda, so what makes Alt any different? My opinion is as much speculation a yours.

 

[Kikinho]

It isn't just headcanon. Alt has never, ever, been in a body after being SK'd. This isn't speculation, this is a fact. It is an objective truth her knowledge when it pertains to V's situation is limited.

Except she talks about the difference after you get soulkilled. About the process of writing the engram. She never addressed the priocess of returning to your body. What she says is that everything changes once you leave your body.

Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2020

How about how she kills every voodoo boys netrunner connected with you? Or how she’s clearly designed to look inhuman? The whole game you look for different solutions before settling on Arasaka or Alt, those 2 options were both desperate plays from V so I never trusted either. But maybe you get along easier with murderous AI

I don't. As I stated in many post before I went with Arasaka because I didn't trsut Alt from the getgo. For the very reasons because she so casually mentions that everything changes once I go with her way. And I had no reason to believe that she would be lying about the change part.

 

[Kashola_]

Except she talks about the difference after you get soulkilled. About the process of writing the engram. She never addressed the priocess of returning to your body. What she says is that everything changes once you leave your body.

I mean, I agree? She is speaking of what she knows and what she knows is what it is like to be a digitized psyche with no humanity for 50 years. Remember, at first V engram didn't even realize they were separated from Johnny, or an engram.

Alt after their soukilling contacted Johnny, the real Johnny shortly after. That same Alt is the one we talk to now 50 years later. She has lost most of her humanity.

V gained theirs back in milliseconds. And of course as earlier stated, V has definitely changed, that is another major theme of the game. Misty brings it up, the doll at Clouds brings it up.

 

[Buckadoz]

It isn't just headcanon. Alt has never, ever, been in a body after being SK'd. This isn't speculation, this is a fact. It is an objective truth her knowledge when it pertains to V's situation is limited.

I'd be fine with this if there was a single voice in the game that ever suggested that going back immediately was somehow something special in regards to Soulkiller. Transhumanism themes about "turning body metal bad" just aren't enough for that leap.

 

[onosendai7]

Some thoughts you may or may not agree with. They're there just for the sake of discussing them.
- Alt
This is the grandmother of AIs. Created in 2013, she/it would be 64 year old by 2077. In the Net, that means 2 or 3 eternities. So the change and the supposed loss of humanity. Since Alt is distributed throught the network, it can also be argued that her humanity is in storage somewhere and it/she can access it as it/she sees fit. After Rache's pranks and the destruction of the NET, neither Netwatch or the corps have the power to restrain, stop or kill Alt, and some other AIs. In the game, Alt is a Deus Ex Machina (literally). Her goal is however shady and, as I understand it, stupid. What is it/she to do with engrams / personalities ? What knowledge these personae possess Alt may want ? There's such a hole here.
- Soul
This is a religious word. There is no soul. There is a mind, with a bunch of memories and trends and feelings. But a soul ? Nope, not in Cyberpunk.
This is a game where human can be sum up to a cortex and a spine and put into a full cyborg and you're introducing a soul ? No kidding ? This also conveys the belief of an afterlife for the immortal soul, which is at hand with technology, but that what is offered by technology is not the real thing.
Cyberpunk is about trans humanism, about a way to escape the flesh and its limitations. But I see nothing in the endings about it. On the contrary : no flesh no life (V and Johnny die without a body since they merge with Alt).
- The DNA rewriting and the radiation overdose
I believe that they are simply narrative tricks to set up the 6 month and bye-bye thing. That's lazy of the writers and they do not relate one to the other.
- Cyberpunk is dark, then the endings should be dark
Well, I got another syllogism for you : we all die in the end, so why bother living ?

Shoot...

 

[Kikinho]

I mean, I agree? She is speaking of what she knows and what she knows is what it is like to be a digitized psyche with no humanity for 50 years. Remember, at first V engram didn't even realize they were separated from Johnny, or an engram.

Alt after their soukilling contacted Johnny, the real Johnny shortly after. That same Alt is the one we talk to now 50 years later. She has lost most of her humanity.

V gained theirs back in milliseconds. And of course as earlier stated, V has definitely changed, that is another major theme of the game. Misty brings it up, the doll at Clouds brings it up.

Yeah and I actually agree with that. In the original PnP lore it's called the soulkiller because inside the net, the soul slowly dies because of lack of stimulation. And I would be perfectly fine if that is what she is refering to. And tbh seeing the engram endings, it porbably is the case.
But up to that point, and even after, this is never explored. V never asks, "What did you mean by everything changes?". V never goes to consult Misty to sooth his/her concerns. It's just bad narrative imho.

 

[onosendai7]

Same, but to my defence, I only kill scavs, maelstrom and corpos! That makes me a good guy, right?

I kill anything that carries a gun I can sell.
I must be a true Cyberpunk...

 

[StarkHelsing]

Well as the Dalemain questline shows us, AIs are pretty fucking powerful and can easily take place among humans. Isn't there like an active "war" going on behind the scenes to keep the AIs at bay? And once Delamain reached a higher consciousness, he simply lost interest in the primitive state of human experience.
Also Alt was a human, and as some said she still has some of her humanity retained. If anything I trust that she still remembers the change that happened when she was ripped out of her body.

Exactly, there's an active war happening right now between AI and humanity. It's behind the scenes but it's there. Alt isn't the most powerful AI - there's plenty more beyond the Blackwall.

Alt is 'retaining her humanity' but let's face it, she isn't. She's an imitation, someone and something that has evolved beyond primitive human notions. All she cares about is one thing, the only thing that any AI cares about - knowledge. Knowledge is power.

Netwatch and the Voodoo boys wanted that chip - the chip is a bargaining piece for Alt. They either wish to use Alt or appease her. She can give and she can take. Her one link to humanity is Johnny Silverhand. She wants Johnny. Johnny is still the narc who killed her, he's still the guy who went off bonking Rogue and is still trying to - all the while saying how they need 'Alt's help'.

Alt wants revenge. She was caught up in some sort of stupid Corpo war as usual. She hates Arasaka, she probably despises Militech. Right now she wants to absorb all Engrams into herself because in her mind that's freeing them. But is it? She's just absorbing people and taking everything that they once were and turning it into data.

The idea that an AI will continue to be passive, kind, motherly after that is strange. If you were an AI looking at Netwatch you're not just going to coo at them. You're going to destroy them and those who they work for. AIs will likely try to nuke Netwatch and then the NUSA.

And this isn't if to say that NUSA isn't already being controlled by an AI behind the scenes.

 

[Kashola_]

Yeah and I actually agree with that. In the original PnP lore it's called the soulkiller because inside the net, the soul slowly dies because of lack of stimulation. And I would be perfectly fine if that is what she is refering to. And tbh seeing the engram endings, it porbably is the case.
But up to that point, and even after, this is never explored. V never asks, "What did you mean by everything changes?". V never goes to consult Misty to sooth his/her concerns. It's just bad narrative imho.

Lack of fulfilling writing is the real culprit here lol

 

[alkerum]

xxx

 

[apeabel]

Well as the Dalemain questline shows us, AIs are pretty fucking powerful and can easily take place among humans. Isn't there like an active "war" going on behind the scenes to keep the AIs at bay? And once Delamain reached a higher consciousness, he simply lost interest in the primitive state of human experience.
Also Alt was a human, and as some said she still has some of her humanity retained. If anything I trust that she still remembers the change that happened when she was ripped out of her body.

Alt should be incomprehensibly more powerful than a human mind. Johnny is the only reason we can even meet her. Alt has no reason to lie to V and Johnny, barely has a reason to even considering making a deal with us.
I also thought merging Delamain meant he became more like a true AI and lost interest in the primitive human world. It is mentioned on radio that AIs control all major stock market deals and financial decisions of almost every corporation on Earth but humans don't care because profits keep rising.

 

[TintelFruit]

I'd be fine with this if there was a single voice in the game that ever suggested that going back immediately was somehow something special in regards to Soulkiller. Transhumanism themes about "turning body metal bad" just aren't enough for that leap.

there isn’t any information about it because nobody knows, nobody ever returned to their body.

Alt warns you about being digitized but she doesn’t know what changes when you are “undigitized”, So sure it changes you but how? We don’t know.

 

[Kikinho]

Exactly, there's an active war happening right now between AI and humanity. It's behind the scenes but it's there. Alt isn't the most powerful AI - there's plenty more beyond the Blackwall.

Alt is 'retaining her humanity' but let's face it, she isn't. She's an imitation, someone and something that has evolved beyond primitive human notions. All she cares about is one thing, the only thing that any AI cares about - knowledge. Knowledge is power.

Netwatch and the Voodoo boys wanted that chip - the chip is a bargaining piece for Alt. They either wish to use Alt or appease her. She can give and she can take. Her one link to humanity is Johnny Silverhand. She wants Johnny. Johnny is still the narc who killed her, he's still the guy who went off bonking Rogue and is still trying to - all the while saying how they need 'Alt's help'.

Alt wants revenge. She was caught up in some sort of stupid Corpo war as usual. She hates Arasaka, she probably despises Militech. Right now she wants to absorb all Engrams into herself because in her mind that's freeing them. But is it? She's just absorbing people and taking everything that they once were and turning it into data.

The idea that an AI will continue to be passive, kind, motherly after that is strange. If you were an AI looking at Netwatch you're not just going to coo at them. You're going to destroy them and those who they work for. AIs will likely try to nuke Netwatch and then the NUSA.

And this isn't if to say that NUSA isn't already being controlled by an AI behind the scenes.

Sounds feasable. Very little of this was explored ingame in a meaningful way.

And yeah, as you pointed out Jhonny is just a piece of shit through and through. Wanting to bang rogue while also trying to redeem himself for killing Alt... god I hate that character lol

Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2020

there isn’t any information about it because nobody knows, nobody ever returned to their body.

Alt warns you about being digitized but she doesn’t know what changes when you are “undigitized”, So sure it changes you but how? We don’t know.

We don't know because noone bothers to ask in the game! The most obvious question and noone brings it up. Like seriously, what gives?

 

[alkerum]

The problem is the main plot quickly writes itself into a very dark corner, with no realistic option possible that undoes the damage V sustains.

The player's situation is written as unsalvageable. Their brain has been half-destroyed by nanites, can no longer survive without the chip connected and any 'escape route' (e.g. creating an engram of V and copying that to the chip, another brain, or the internet, etc) will only rescue a new COPY of V, with tthe original oragnic-brained version still dying.

All roads lead to the destruction of V's 'soul'. The only way around this would be to have a miracle doctor appear who can somehow repair V's brain, reversing the 'artificial dementia' V is suffering from and allowing the chip to be removed plus Johnny's engram deleted.

There's just no way to introduce a happy resolution like that without it feeling like a 'magical' plot twist that breaks the rules of how V's predicament is set up.

In short, the dark endings are just symptoms of a very dark premise. If V's situation had been explained differently - i.e. their organic brain is still physically fine but its autonomy is just being usurped by the chip's connection, then the writers would have had a lot more wiggle room to include happier endings.

In the end, the plot is very similar to The Fly. There's no winning path for Dr. Brundle's original self, only for a viable copy or hybrid that leaves the doomed original behind.

Deus ex machina... XD

 

[Kashola_]

I'd be fine with this if there was a single voice in the game that ever suggested that going back immediately was somehow something special in regards to Soulkiller. Transhumanism themes about "turning body metal bad" just aren't enough for that leap.

Firstly, V is one of a kind, the first to go through what they went through. As for your commentary on themes and leaps, that's on you. You're entitled to your views but you're not an authority.

Also, for your consumption of fiction is there really no room for your to think about the implications of what goes on in the narrative, does it always have to be super black and white and obvious for you to enjoy?

 

[StarkHelsing]

Alt should be incomprehensibly more powerful than a human mind. Johnny is the only reason we can even meet her. Alt has no reason to lie to V and Johnny, barely has a reason to even considering making a deal with us.
I also thought merging Delamain meant he became more like a true AI and lost interest in the primitive human world. It is mentioned on radio that AIs control all major stock market deals and financial decisions of almost every corporation on Earth but humans don't care because profits keep rising.

Exactly - AI is entwined heavily with corporations. It's pretty weird how every AI is buying up stock shares in space travel right now. Human's can't escape to space stations. Just like how in a certain ending we're getting the guestlist for every single person in the crystal palace. Who would want that information and why?

 

[Buckadoz]

there isn’t any information about it because nobody knows, nobody ever returned to their body.

Alt warns you about being digitized but she doesn’t know what changes when you are “undigitized”, So sure it changes you but how? We don’t know.

Firstly, V is one of a kind, the first to go through what they went through. As for your commentary on themes and leaps, that's on you. You're entitled to your views but you're not an authority.

There's nobody who brings up that being moved back to your body immediately is somehow special. It doesn't matter that Alt hasn't experienced that exactly. Any supposition that V's situation is somehow relevantly unique is just that.

Lack of fulfilling writing is the real culprit here lol

I'll temporarily come down from the hill I've chosen to die on to drink to that.