[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[Barsenthor]

Getting brain wiped and playing on as an engram with a 6 months shelf life, really irked me.

Why does the game force these idiotic choices upon me? Why is there no way to antagonize Arasaka but still reject Johnny?

Because not every story needs to have a “happy ending”?
It’s so edgy to write off main character and most of the cast just like that, without the second thought.
Its so deep and underground.
Scratch the fact that you didnt give any meaning to those deaths, that death need to be meaningful in story in order to not look it like cheap trick done only for a short-lived thrill.
RDR2 and Nier Automata managed to do this and more - and every one was like “what a great story”

the fact that Johnny is just a sad Keanu in the cyberspace at the end of Arasaka ending is just mind blowing. Like I was hoping to at least quarrel, maybe mental fight like Narrator and Tyler Duren at the end of Fight Club.
You were to cut the deal with his arch nemesis and the guy was like “whatever”.

but hey sad ending is soo deep!

 

[Hammerstein]

They were working on this since 2013. In 2018 they brought Keanu in and it appears as if they tossed out half of the stuff they had until then, just to shoehorn Johnny into the game.

During The Heist you can get to the roof of the tower where Saburo's air car is parked. There's even a quest marker, to kill the guards. And inside the air car is a blinking tablet with another quest marker on it, but when you click it, nothing happens.

Seems pretty obvious that these are remains from an alternate outcome of The Heist.

Also the second mission with Jackie, where you rescue the girl from the Scavs, was featured in a trailer and I expected that we would be able to call in Trauma Team and they would take care of the remaining Scavs once we reactivate the beacon tracker. In the trailer Trauma Team shot up the whole room and the guy with the machine gun. That was cut too.

Also notice that the initial missions, like The Pickup, offer way more content and alternatives than later missions. In The Pickup you can:

Knock out Royce
Blow off Royce's head
Pay for the bot with Militech money
Pay for the bot with your own money
Tell them about the virus on the credit chip
Not tell them about the virus
Hack the chip and keep the money
Save Brick
Blow up Brick
Help Royce fight off Militech
Kill Royce when he's in his cyborg suit
Find evidence about the Militech mole (not sure if this is Nomad exclusive)

None of the later missions have that kind of content or choices.

 

[Eakani]

Given that the DLC will be tied to your condition, I'm pretty sure there will be more.

IF a DLC will contiune with Vs fate, than it would make sense that it is stuck at 40% (not sure if it can't go higher).

 

[Willowhugger]

IF a DLC will contiune with Vs fate, than it would make sense that it is stuck at 40% (not sure if it can't go higher).

That's ridiculous. Why do it at all then if it can't go up?

Post automatically merged: Jan 3, 2021

They were working on this since 2013. In 2018 they brought Keanu in and it appears as if they tossed out half of the stuff they had until then, just to shoehorn Johnny into the game.

That's a dumb fan theory. They planned to have Johnny Silverhand as the focus even when he was going to be an original CGI character.

 

[Wenceslaus]

.

...In 2018 they brought Keanu in and it appears as if they tossed out half of the stuff they had until then, just to shoehorn Johnny into the game...

Prove it... 100% without any doubt.
Because I know it was, in fact, lizard people.

 

[Willowhugger]

None of the later missions have that kind of content or choices.

I will say I appreciated there were so many opportunities for the Pisces quest.

* Side with Maiko (Lose Judy romance)
* Side with Judy
* Side with Maiko and refuse her money
* Side with Judy and kill Maiko
* Side with Judy and knock out Maiko (different ending)

 

[Eakani]

That's ridiculous. Why do it at all then if it can't go up?

Post automatically merged: Jan 3, 2021

That's a dumb fan theory. They planned to have Johnny Silverhand as the focus even when he was going to be an original CGI character.

Not sure, maybe it is like Barsenthor wrote, a left over from cut content?

 

[Hammerstein]

Also, you put so much emphasis on the tarots and declare them to be the writers' narrative tool that is objectively telling you how the game ends. Yet, you overlook Panam's phone call at the end. In the call she is basically canceling some plans she had with you, and references the fact that this isn't the first time this has happened. She sounds worn down and fatigued as she states herself she's coming to terms on what it means to be the chieftain of a nomad family.

To me the breakup with Panam/Judy is proof that the V engram that came out of Mikoshi is not the same person that entered. Something was "lost" after you got hit with Soulkiller and the original V was brain wiped and replaced with an engram copy.

In one of the endings Panam even says that "you have changed".

 

[Willowhugger]

Not sure, maybe it is like Barsenthor wrote, a left over from cut content?

Or it involves future content. I do think that any Expansions will be in the middle of the game and open up new secret endings, though. I admit, I could be wrong.

To me the breakup with Panam/Judy is proof that the V engram that came out of Mikoshi is not the same person that entered. Something was "lost" after you got hit with Soulkiller and the original V was brain wiped and replaced with an engram copy.

In one of the endings Panam even says that "you have changed".

Given you can be a complete asshole or a saint, I'm not sure if that's a good example. Johnny certainly seems to be 100% the same person to an almost alarming extent.

 

[Eakani]

To me the breakup with Panam/Judy is proof that the V engram that came out of Mikoshi is not the same person that entered. Something was "lost" after you got hit with Soulkiller and the original V was brain wiped and replaced with an engram copy.

In one of the endings Panam even says that "you have changed".

Who wouldn't have changed after all of this?

 

[Barsenthor]

Johnny by the end
- doesn’t give a f... about V making deal with Arasaka
- doesn’t want V body
- when he gets the V body is totally chillout.

Thats one completely wasted Keanu in this game.

 

[bcraig6010]

I think if you have your mind wiped and are replaced with a backup, you are not meaningful changed.

My computer rebooting is not somehow a different computer unless you're a Philosophy 101 student.

It's like Wolfenstein: The New Order where that girl goes, "You die everytime you go to sleep! Continuity of consciousness!"

BJ just looks at her and goes, "Lady, you are seriously stupid."

Post automatically merged: Jan 3, 2021

She also affirms the immortal soul exists, much to Johnny's chagrin.

Lessening emotions you behave different. Removing hormones or even slight changes to hormones you behave different. Emotions are hormonal changes in the brain.

You change significantly.
Evidence. Johnny himself - johnny returns to life behaves significantly different than the johnny that was. Further his "memories" are part lies - changed based upon him wanting to remember things a certain way

Putting your mind - i.e. memories, in a computer changes the identity of the existence. They have no body to modify so they will behave upon the static or changing parameters of their programming (digital person) until that changes.

Significant evidence that AI ALT behaves far far far different than ms cunningham. That and time plus absorbing others will do that.

When you're tired you behave different, when under the influence of something that inhibits the brain you get more uninhibited - all of these aspects of YOU aren't there when you're dead and just a digital copy of memories.

so an AI/digital version of you would quickly and significantly diverge from the identify they were as they lack all the variables of body and hormones, and begin to change based upon continuing existence (unless merged with uber AI i.e. assimilated)

If your own memories and status was put into your own body sure you're not changed much. But placed into another body - you are going to be slightly different due to makeup of new body.

Further, you merged into ALT ceases to exist as separate being. If you merely accompany ALT - if you survive from that point on, digital you starts to learn and grow and change based upon vastly different parameters - so going back into a human body would be difficult as how to impart digital memories onto an organic brain cell.

 

[topmoinger]

To me the breakup with Panam/Judy is proof that the V engram that came out of Mikoshi is not the same person that entered. Something was "lost" after you got hit with Soulkiller and the original V was brain wiped and replaced with an engram copy.

In one of the endings Panam even says that "you have changed".

Yeah but if you do the aldecado ending then they're happy with you, and in that situation V is also an engram. I don't think them breaking up with you is indicative of that at all. Judy's story is about finding a home, and never feeling like she belonged anywhere. She even references this in the NC legend ending when she says that her whole life has been about "phases" and how she's never truly found a permanent place to stay. She also leaves NC in nearly every other ending I believe, so I believe it just makes sense plot-wise to have her leave, because there's nothing for her in NC that's basically her story arc. Panam's story also has themes of being disenfranchised with NC and family, and I feel once she's back in good graces for her family, it doesn't make sense for her to stay either.

Every character tells you "you've changed" whenever they are disappointed with you. It doesn't mean much. Misty tells you that when you side with Arasaka even though I have given her no indication that I ever opposed them. And she's mad that they killed Jackie after we stole from them and for all intent and purposes at the time, looked like we murdered Souburo. There is a clear disconnect between the player and the character, lifepaths are meaningless.

 

[Willowhugger]

Lessening emotions you behave different. Removing hormones or even slight changes to hormones you behave different. Emotions are hormonal changes in the brain.

You change significantly.
Evidence. Johnny himself - johnny returns to life behaves significantly different than the johnny that was. Further his "memories" are part lies - changed based upon him wanting to remember things a certain way

Johnny's memories changed in life not in death. He remembered that as part of his justication for nuking Arasaka. Specifically, he is remembering the adventure module "Never Fade Away" that Alt Cunningham almost survived on her own.

Never Fade Away (Adventure)

Never Fade Away is a mini adventure featured in both Cyberpunk 2013 and Cyberpunk 2020. It is the opening of what is considered the Cyberpunk story and revolves around the kidnapping of Alt Cunningham by Arasaka. 1 Overview 1.1 A Cyberpunk Adventure 1.2 Trauma Ward 1.3 The Naming of Names 1.4...

cyberpunk.fandom.com

Humans do that all the time to themselves and by that logic, we're not actually the same people.

AI are arguably inhuman because they'd actually remember how things really happened and not change our memories to suit us.

Putting your mind - i.e. memories, in a computer changes the identity of the existence. They have no body to modify so they will behave upon the static or changing parameters of their programming (digital person) until that changes.

The brain is a receptor. You could literally program yourself to experience all the sensation sof a human being and it would work because your consciousness is not your body or chemicals but how your brain interprets these signals.

I.e. "I am programmed to experience pain at this moment. Ow."

Mikoshi and the Net are digital environments that exist beyond data. This isn't brought up in the game but the Net also doesn't exist on servers in the setting but is an alternate dimension that data is stored in.

Because Cyberpunk 2020 was written in the EIghties.

 

[bcraig6010]

Johnny by the end
- doesn’t give a f... about V making deal with Arasaka
- doesn’t want V body
- when he gets the V body is totally chillout.

Thats one completely wasted Keanu in this game.

Yes - exactly.
Johnny's programming is arasaka is bad.
Johnny gains some empathy over the game - as V's mind ripped from her and changed to johnnys mind
Says he wants V to live and accepts her choice in cyberspace BUT
give him the chance at coming back and he just says one little line about giving up
then immediately ignored all of V's friends and has no shame in them thinking V is still alive and out there not knowing V's fate.

 

[Barsenthor]

They were working on this since 2013. In 2018 they brought Keanu in and it appears as if they tossed out half of the stuff they had until then, just to shoehorn Johnny into the game.

During The Heist you can get to the roof of the tower where Saburo's air car is parked. There's even a quest marker, to kill the guards. And inside the air car is a blinking tablet with another quest marker on it, but when you click it, nothing happens.

Seems pretty obvious that these are remains from an alternate outcome of The Heist.

Also the second mission with Jackie, where you rescue the girl from the Scavs, was featured in a trailer and I expected that we would be able to call in Trauma Team and they would take care of the remaining Scavs once we reactivate the beacon tracker. In the trailer Trauma Team shot up the whole room and the guy with the machine gun. That was cut too.

Also notice that the initial missions, like The Pickup, offer way more content and alternatives than later missions. In The Pickup you can:

Knock out Royce
Blow off Royce's head
Pay for the bot with Militech money
Pay for the bot with your own money
Tell them about the virus on the credit chip
Not tell them about the virus
Hack the chip and keep the money
Save Brick
Blow up Brick
Help Royce fight off Militech
Kill Royce when he's in his cyborg suit
Find evidence about the Militech mole (not sure if this is Nomad exclusive)

None of the later missions have that kind of content or choices.

About the scav mission you are right! mission had at least two possible solition. On the right in the main room there is another small room with the whole on the wall that leads to the room with girl.
Look even on the first cinematic trailer there is a scene with the same location where TT attack to same last enemy in this mission.

 

[Hammerstein]

That's a dumb fan theory. They planned to have Johnny Silverhand as the focus even when he was going to be an original CGI character.

Not really, cause in an early trailer we hear about Johnny Silverhand's death on the radio in 2077.

 

[bcraig6010]

Yeah but if you do the aldecado ending then they're happy with you, and in that situation V is also an engram. I don't think them breaking up with you is indicative of that at all. Judy's story is about finding a home, and never feeling like she belonged anywhere. She even references this in the NC legend ending when she says that her whole life has been about "phases" and how she's never truly found a permanent place to stay. She also leaves NC in nearly every other ending I believe, so I believe it just makes sense plot-wise to have her leave, because there's nothing for her in NC that's basically her story arc. Panam's story also has themes of being disenfranchised with NC and family, and I feel once she's back in good graces for her family, it doesn't make sense for her to stay either.

Everything character tells you "you've changed" whenever they are disappointed with you. It doesn't mean much. Misty tells you that when you side with Arasaka even though I have given her no indication that I ever opposed them. And she's mad that they killed Jackie after we stole from them and for all intent and purposes at the time, looked like we murdered Souburo. There is a clear disconnect between the player and the character, lifepaths are meaningless.

I partly agree - as they rip player agency from you.
You can tell her in conversation if you find a way to live you'd leave night city with her.

but NOPE
Glory ending after attacking arasaka tower alone you decide to stay in night city and spend all your cure looking for money on a flying car and penthouse condo - and not doign as you the player chose to say - if I survive lets leave NC behind.

lifepaths are meaningless - and aside from pick your color on the balcony all your choices are meaningless too.

 

[andrezzyn]

I don't see them putting more endings in the game, or changing the endings.
I only see them continuing the finals where V continues with the body.

I think V getting a cure at the beginning of the new expansion and doing this, something bad happens, that can make people want to kill him and his friends, and the possibility of V not being able to save all his friends, would make the plot much more interesting.

 

[Eakani]

Or it involves future content. I do think that any Expansions will be in the middle of the game and open up new secret endings, though. I admit, I could be wrong.



Given you can be a complete asshole or a saint, I'm not sure if that's a good example. Johnny certainly seems to be 100% the same person to an almost alarming extent.

Mid-game DLC that changes or add endings... hmmm

Could see that, maybe we get some new missions that make clear that we need more than mikoshi, another tech or straight a new body as cure. Has potential i guess.