As i am very accustomed to the whole "copy your mind for immortality" idea, i do not have any issue with this outcome whatsoever. HOWEVER the game takes the choice away from you. The important question "is V really still V" is blatantly answered by alt. Thats not how that philosophical dilemma is supposed to work. Now Alt can just be a cynic and so far detached from her humanity that she doesnt recognize herself as her former self anymore, but there is no counterbalance in the game to make you think that within the bounds of the narration, a digital copy of you might still be you.
You dont get to decide that for yourself, the game answers the one question that is supposed not to be answered.Not really sure what the point of that was besides to make you really fucking miserable. Even one counter argument (maybe talking to your romance about your own doubts) would open it up for people to believe what makes them happy.
For me it is simple. The copy is still V. even if the original V was still alive, the copy and him would both be V at the point of ctrl+C. Past that point, they would be seperate entities. Since original V is dead, case closed for me. However again, and i feel this is pretty important, the game says straightup "no you dont get to think that, old V is dead, you are abomination"
All what you said. Or give a sequence where your loved ones help you make a decision. Do they want to stay with you even if it is a copy, or do they also understand the existentital dread you are experiencing? If they wanted to make a game that is food for our thoughts, then they could have done a lot better job imo. And I am saying it with me loving everything about the story up until the end.
Also, let me draw some parallels to the movie Upgrade, from 2018, which features very similar cyberpunk themes. Spoilers, obviously.
TL;DR is that the main character's love interest dies in a car crash, while he is left as a quadriplegic. He accepts an offer to implant a chip with AI that would handle the signals from his brain and interpret them for him, so he regains control of his body, so he can go seek revenge. In the end it turns out everything was planned by the AI right from the start and it used everyone for its personal needs, so it can 'gain' a body and escape out into the 'real' world, with heavy implications that it's out to 'conquer' it. The AI locks the protagonist inside his own mind, stuck in a dream-like state, and the AI steals his body. The ending clearly reveals that the guy was screwed right from the start, from the moment he implanted the AI chip in his spine.
It is very, very easy to draw multiple parallels between the story of the MC in Upgrade and V in Cyberpunk, but here is where they differ dramatically.
Upgrade choses to be extremely dark, and that's the story. It's a movie, with a certain artistic direction, that poses certain questions with how it ends, and that is on purpose. This is the writer's choice, this is the story he wanted to tell you, these are the questions he wants you to ask yourself. You understand by default, that you are there to experience the story and not make any choices in it, because this is a movie.
Yet in Cyberpunk 2077 we end up in almost the exact same situation, but in a completely different medium - a videogame, in which the player's involvement and promise of choice and agency are a key part of the whole formula. So why treat a videogame's story the same way as a movie? There are plenty of games where this is done, but that is clearly the idea. Easiest example - Call of Duty. But CoD makes no promises that it's an RPG, does it? That's why it works, you are invited to just go along for the ride, and that's very clear right from the start. Cyberpunk 2077 invited us to take the steering wheel, then right at the end, it just practically removes it from the car, and we end up almost watching a movie, inside of a videogame, which is just confusing and feels... wrong.
I've been lurking this topic for a while now and saw a lot of thoughts similar to mine, but still feel the need to vent as well.
What I missed the most is the option to just stop the chip from erasing V and stay as it is along with Johnny in his/her head. At some point it was becoming pretty obvious to me that V is going to be damaged too much already.
After all it is said that the brain is being slowly but steadily rewritten. Reversing would have been only possible if V already had an engram from before the chip, which is impossible since that also kills the host. Seems logical that it's impossible to recreate lost, overwritten personality data from nothing.
This ending would've sufficed for me as it lets (original) V live while still having the downside of their life permanently changed by a constant companion in their head.
Now if we take the fact that V's personality is being permanently overwritten, Alt creating an engram at that point seems stupid. The way I see it the only way for Alt to know what to save as V is if it creates an engram of V's current state and removes the parts that are also present in Johnny's engram. Those are the parts that were already rewritten.
Now the result wouldn't be the same V as before the chip. It's not even the same V as before the Soulkiller. At this point this result is not just no better than the surgery one, but even worse as in the surgery one V won't be a copy at least.
Any ending that involves the tower and Alt results in the death of hundreds of employees and the destruction of all engrams stored. Yes they are merged into Alt, but that sounds like destruction from the point of the individuals. All those lives for ours?
We let loose an evil AI having no problem with slaughtering people and consuming human engrams to grow.
Okay that's quite the burden to live with, but at least we get to live, right? No. We get to die on the spot and may only live on as a copy which is only an acceptable solution if our V really only cares about their legacy, because this way they still have a chance to create one... in the next 6 months that is.
OR you could just give your body to Johnny as he could live a full second life. Sounds like the logical choice, no?
So we can't have a good ending because cyberpunk, but Johnny gets to kick Arasaka in the nuts again, get revenge on Smasher AND can get a second chance in life.
Yes, he's a copy as well, but he's already one by the time V's story starts and that makes a difference.
If V was already the nth copy from the start, those CTRL+V endings would have a much different flavour.
Speaking of second chance for Johnny. My first ending was the surgery one and I got lectured for giving in and not keeping true to the corp hate. Would've been a bit more convincing if the second chance ending's resolution didn't show Johnny no longer care about corps and riding off with a bus to live his own life elsewhere... but if V wants that then he/she's a weak sheep.
As for the post ending game... We did not change the world in any meaningful way, I see no reason for being unable to continue other than Johnny no longer appearing to give us his grumpy comments.
Also the same face V has in every ending brought my ME3 RGB ending PTSD back.
As i am very accustomed to the whole "copy your mind for immortality" idea, i do not have any issue with this outcome whatsoever. HOWEVER the game takes the choice away from you. The important question "is V really still V" is blatantly answered by alt. Thats not how that philosophical dilemma is supposed to work. Now Alt can just be a cynic and so far detached from her humanity that she doesnt recognize herself as her former self anymore, but there is no counterbalance in the game to make you think that within the bounds of the narration, a digital copy of you might still be you.
You dont get to decide that for yourself, the game answers the one question that is supposed not to be answered.Not really sure what the point of that was besides to make you really fucking miserable. Even one counter argument (maybe talking to your romance about your own doubts) would open it up for people to believe what makes them happy.
For me it is simple. The copy is still V. even if the original V was still alive, the copy and him would both be V at the point of ctrl+C. Past that point, they would be seperate entities. Since original V is dead, case closed for me. However again, and i feel this is pretty important, the game says straightup "no you dont get to think that, old V is dead, you are abomination"
I've always seen the "copy your mind to a computer for immortality thing" as the way this game presents it -- any copy is just a copy, the original is still boned. The problem is, in most content that uses that, they just assume it actually does work. What makes me particularly bitter is that the game goes out of it's way to say that this isn't how Soulkiller works -- that it really will simply kill and replace V -- but the rest of the game treats it like regular sci fi stories would treat it.
In no way a snowflake, choom. I will happily admit I got remarkably invested in the story and characters, and felt a very real connection. The final scenes with V and Panam I was genuinely close to tears like "who's got onions out!!!"
Post automatically merged:
That seems like a really weird disparity in the romance system too.
I also got ninjas cutting onions right next to me when I was told V would die if she decided to return to Earth rather than accept Arasaka's Save your Soul offer
As i am very accustomed to the whole "copy your mind for immortality" idea, i do not have any issue with this outcome whatsoever. HOWEVER the game takes the choice away from you. The important question "is V really still V" is blatantly answered by alt. Thats not how that philosophical dilemma is supposed to work. Now Alt can just be a cynic and so far detached from her humanity that she doesnt recognize herself as her former self anymore, but there is no counterbalance in the game to make you think that within the bounds of the narration, a digital copy of you might still be you.
You dont get to decide that for yourself, the game answers the one question that is supposed not to be answered.Not really sure what the point of that was besides to make you really fucking miserable. Even one counter argument (maybe talking to your romance about your own doubts) would open it up for people to believe what makes them happy.
For me it is simple. The copy is still V. even if the original V was still alive, the copy and him would both be V at the point of ctrl+C. Past that point, they would be seperate entities. Since original V is dead, case closed for me. However again, and i feel this is pretty important, the game says straightup "no you dont get to think that, old V is dead, you are abomination"
Same. Once you return, you might be Copy V, a separate person from the V that jacked into Mikoshi, but you still have his memories and emotions, and being returned to that same time line and environment you would surely continue as V would have, happy not knowing who you are outside of "I'm V"
I personally felt that it was a brilliant move. Emotions I rarely if ever experienced. Point of views that forces me to look things through other's perspective. I just wish there would be an actual lession out there in the end. I wish they would have made a point clear with it.
Also, let me draw some parallels to the movie Upgrade, from 2018, which features very similar cyberpunk themes. Spoilers, obviously.
TL;DR is that the main character's love interest dies in a car crash, while he is left as a quadriplegic. He accepts an offer to implant a chip with AI that would handle the signals from his brain and interpret them for him, so he regains control of his body, so he can go seek revenge. In the end it turns out everything was planned by the AI right from the start and it used everyone for its personal needs, so it can 'gain' a body and escape out into the 'real' world, with heavy implications that it's out to 'conquer' it. The AI locks the protagonist inside his own mind, stuck in a dream-like state, and the AI steals his body. The ending clearly reveals that the guy was screwed right from the start, from the moment he implanted the AI chip in his spine.
It is very, very easy to draw multiple parallels between the story of the MC in Upgrade and V in Cyberpunk, but here is where they differ dramatically.
Upgrade choses to be extremely dark, and that's the story. It's a movie, with a certain artistic direction, that poses certain questions with how it ends, and that is on purpose. This is the writer's choice, this is the story he wanted to tell you, these are the questions he wants you to ask yourself. You understand by default, that you are there to experience the story and not make any choices in it, because this is a movie.
Yet in Cyberpunk 2077 we end up in almost the exact same situation, but in a completely different medium - a videogame, in which the player's involvement and promise of choice and agency are a key part of the whole formula. So why treat a videogame's story the same way as a movie? There are plenty of games where this is done, but that is clearly the idea. Easiest example - Call of Duty. But CoD makes no promises that it's an RPG, does it? That's why it works, you are invited to just go along for the ride, and that's very clear right from the start. Cyberpunk 2077 invited us to take the steering wheel, then right at the end, it just practically removes it from the car, and we end up almost watching a movie, inside of a videogame, which is just confusing and feels... wrong.
I also got ninjas cutting onions right next to me when I was told V would die if she decided to return to Earth rather than accept Arasaka's Save your Soul offer
I don't know man, I'm genuinely glad some of you see some kind of hope in the ending where copy V gets a chance at life and possibly a cure, but I see any ending where V gets hit with Soulkiller as a fate worse than death. I genuinely think the ending they give you basically as a meme -- shoot yourself -- is probably the least bleak one. For all you folks out there who insist cyberpunk must be dark, you can't get much edgier than that.
That is my problem too. The urgency of the matter was delivered briliantly. The problem was that in the end we don't really have a say how it ends. Or if the you get to live another 6 month meant to be foreshadowing for future DLCs, I wish it would be made obvious.
Spoiler alert! No matter what choices you made in life - you will die at some point. No, but really think about that.
I think the one where you get rid of Johnny and run away with Panam is a happy ending. Who cares if he dies later, it's a singleplayer game. Dont get so attached to the character you play in a single player game lol.
Spoiler alert! No matter what choices you made in life - you will die at some point. No, but really think about that.
I think the one where you get rid of Johnny and run away with Panam is a happy ending. Who cares if he dies later, it's a singleplayer game. Dont get so attached to the character you play in a single player game lol.
Spoiler alert! No matter what choices you made in life - you will die at some point. No, but really think about that.
I think the one where you get rid of Johnny and run away with Panam is a happy ending. Who cares if he dies later, it's a singleplayer game. Dont get so attached to the character you play in a single player game lol.
That seems like such a cop out with the damaged chip, because they would probably manage to recreate the effects if the damage had anything to do with it. It is cyberpunk after all.
