[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[Cyber.D.G.]

It is advertised everywhere as an RPG.

Well, they also told us that there's going to be a railroad. Or how is it called.. Metro? Subway?
But nope...
You can write anything you want, but that's not going to change what the game is.

 

[Buckadoz]

Trippy question. I thought about it the other day where if I uploaded a copy of myself into a computer and I had the copy of myself peering back at me through the web camera. I'd argue we've introduced a point of divergence here where our paths will take us in wildly different directions. Parallel timeline effectively but on the same strand.

This is kind of a bizarre take that borderline suggests there's something supernatural about the sense of self, at which point I don't think the conversation can really continue.

I think it makes more sense to suppose that the copy will essentially have a "new" sense of self -- it will still have your memories and externally be exactly you, but when it says "I am V" the I in that sentence is something completely new, though from V2's perspective it will feel like they were just in the body. This new thing is what goes back into V's body. Or, well, the thing that eventually ends up in V's body is technically a THIRD V because of how moving data works, but I don't think we have to go down that rabbit hole to see my point.

I think this is the only reasonable interpretation of what Alt means when she says "the rest will cease to exist" when discussing the ramifications of Soulkiller.

 

[Simuxas]

Well, they also told us that there's going to be a railroad. Or how is it called.. Metro? Subway?
But nope...
You can write anything you want, but that's not going to change what the game is.

Not having a train and releasing a game as one genre but you advertise it as another, it is 2 different things.

That is false advertising.

 

[BunnyBana]

Even if they did, it's advertised as an RPG on their steam page. Last I checked.

"Cyberpunk 2077 is an open-world, action-adventure story set in Night City, a megalopolis [...]"

That's the stream description.

 

[MeinChurro]

"Cyberpunk 2077 is an open-world, action-adventure story set in Night City, a megalopolis [...]"

That's the stream description.

I'm getting mixed signals here.

 

[BGM45]

"Cyberpunk 2077 is an open-world, action-adventure story set in Night City, a megalopolis [...]"

That's the stream description.

gog has "role-playing" as a category too, and it's their own store.

 

[Cyber.D.G.]

"Cyberpunk 2077 is an open-world, action-adventure story set in Night City, a megalopolis [...]"

That's the stream description.

Ah sh..., Just realized, that this backstabs me, and those ppl who were arguing that RPG have to give players a choice..
And this discription actually means that we won't have a "good ending dlc" for sure.

 

[amsquared]

Let's say instead of pulling V out, Soulkiller makes an engram while the actual human is still alive -- if the copy engram and the human are both conscious at once, is there one sense of self split between two people?

You're going to have to define what a "sense of self" is for me to answer that question. Full disclaimer: I never took a psychology class in college, so if you're using a clinical term here, I don't know it.

If we're talking about V's mannerisms - saying "sh*t" when "crap" would've worked, for example - then that's all connections between neurons. In particular, it's learned behavior. Meaning she did it once, got a favorable response from whoever she was talking to, then kept doing it. Each time she got a tiny hit of dopamine and each time the neural pathways to do so were used, the resistance between individual neurons lessened and it became the path of least resistance for her thoughts over time.

If we're talking the way her senses work, that's a combination of sensory inputs and how her brain processes them. The sensory inputs remain unchanged because they're coming from the same body - same replacement electronic eyes, same skin, etc. The processing is based on feeding that input through her life experiences - memories, obviously part of the Engram - and some logic and reason filters, essentially.

If it's a matter of philosophy, meaning Engram V questioning whether or not she is "alive," or whether or not she is still V, that's basically up to her. However, we see some semblance of an answer to that based on the player's responses to Johnny. She's already partially an Engram regardless of what we do, Johnny's Engram. She can either treat him as a person, or as a virus, and the player has both options available to them. If V treats Johnny as a person, knowing that he in an Engram, and especially knowing that he's an incomplete Engram, then she can't very well doubt her own existence as a complete Engram.

I'm not sure what else you might mean by this. My best answer, though, is no, there would be two senses of self. Since there's only one body for the two versions of V, one is in her body while the other is in Cyberspace. The Engram being held in Cyberspace cannot very well be unaware that it's not currently in the real world. As an engram of a person who has walked through the real world, it would know its surroundings are virtual. That would automatically cause it to be aware that it is not the same entity as that which it was copied from.

However, let's take your hypothetical a step further. If another body is found, and it is altered to look, feel, and function exactly as V's body does, then a copy of Engram V is placed into this new body, and the original body is locked away and new, clone V never finds it, do I think it would have the exact same, separate, distinct sense of self that original V had?

Yes, absolutely, I do. It wouldn't be shared, but it would, just like every other part of her psyche, be identical. And if some careful memory editing was done to remove knowledge of the procedure, it probably would never know it was a copy at all, nor would anyone else.

Based on this, I believe the sense of self is in the brain along with everything else, and would be transferred wherever the engram goes, with the caveat that it would be aware it is not an organic, living being whilst inside cyberspace.

To reiterate: the game just needs an ending that does away with the 6 month death clock. If CDPR wants to tackle these questions, fine. If not, fine. I want an ending where V lives, even if it requires some other, non-protagonist sacrifice to get it. Everything else is really just an aside, even if it is fun to talk about.

 

[headache247]

i just got here and forgive me for not reading all 81 pages so sorry if im being a parrot but it is really dark and brings back an older but still controversial ending

Spoiler: spoiler

mass effect 3

hm that spoiler tag doesnt look right lol

 

[MeinChurro]

View attachment 11091209

gog has "role-playing" as a category too, and it's their own store.

Straight from the horse's mouth! Do they even know what this game is?!

Post automatically merged: Dec 16, 2020

Ah sh..., Just realized, that this backstabs me, and those ppl who were arguing that RPG have to give players a choice..
And this discription actually means that we won't have a "good ending dlc" for sure.

No, it doesn't. Because even if they tried to pull some half-assed switcheroo - which seems to be done HORRIBLY I might add - it was advertised for years to have choice and consequence.

 

[Motsie]

This is kind of a bizarre take that borderline suggests there's something supernatural about the sense of self, at which point I don't think the conversation can really continue.

I think it makes more sense to suppose that the copy will essentially have a "new" sense of self -- it will still have your memories and externally be exactly you, but when it says "I am V" the I in that sentence is something completely new, though from V2's perspective it will feel like they were just in the body. This new thing is what goes back into V's body. Or, well, the thing that eventually ends up in V's body is technically a THIRD V because of how moving data works, but I don't think we have to go down that rabbit hole to see my point.

I think this is the only reasonable interpretation of what Alt means when she says "the rest will cease to exist" when discussing the ramifications of Soulkiller.

That's my whole beef with the inclusion of Soulkiller as a plot device. It skims a philosophical talking point that has no answer to it, along with the nebulous nature of what a soul is and what our sense of self means. It scratches the surface but pulls back and makes no effort to really explore it any further.

The V in the 'matrix' doesn't really care that they used soulkiller, more so the fact that they have 6 months left to live should they choose to return. Even Alt saying they copied your memories into the program doesn't leave a lasting impact. It's apparent the writers don't seem to see the difference between pre and post soulkiller V. Idk anymore. I would be acting too optimistic if I said they'd try to hash out the concept further in a DLC, since their stance is that they provide the story as-is like Witcher 3.

 

[BGM45]

i just got here and forgive me for not reading all 81 pages so sorry if im being a parrot but it is really dark and brings back an older but still controversial ending

Spoiler: spoiler

mass effect 3

hm that spoiler tag doesnt look right lol

hello and welcome. ME3 has been a guest of honour in this conversation since the very first page, I believe. we all just hope CDPR won't take the same route BW took back then with their reaction to players' complaints.

 

[BunnyBana]

Straight from the horse's mouth! Do they even know what this game is?!

No, and that's kinda the point. I'm sure they had plans and all but I think a lot just got cut and stuff got rewritten.

I even would argue that the videogame genre classification really doesn't matter that much in the end. Just like the cyberpunk genre doesn't automatically means bad end.

 

[Culaio]

Check my signature. The first 60 pages of the thread are condensed there

Thank you, that actually helped a lot : )

 

[Buckadoz]

I'm not sure what else you might mean by this. My best answer, though, is no, there would be two senses of self. Since there's only one body for the two versions of V, one is in her body while the other is in Cyberspace. The Engram being held in Cyberspace cannot very well be unaware that it's not currently in the real world. As an engram of a person who has walked through the real world, it would know its surroundings are virtual. That would automatically cause it to be aware that it is not the same entity as that which it was copied from.

However, let's take your hypothetical a step further. If another body is found, and it is altered to look, feel, and function exactly as V's body does, then a copy of Engram V is placed into this new body, and the original body is locked away and new, clone V never finds it, do I think it would have the exact same, separate, distinct sense of self that original V had?

Yes, absolutely, I do. It wouldn't be shared, but it would, just like every other part of her psyche, be identical. And if some careful memory editing was done to remove knowledge of the procedure, it probably would never know it was a copy at all, nor would anyone else.

Sorry for causing confusion over sense of self, but I think these paragraphs get to the heart of the matter. What I'm saying Soulkiller does is essentially this -- a dirty little secret about computer data is that it doesn't actually move, it's only ever copied and deleted. V is copied as an engram, essentially creating this second self, while the first V (the one that you played as, the one that actually physically had the experience of watching her friends die and fighting to save her life) is "deleted" -- dies on the table.

The copy might never know it's a copy. The people who know V would never know it's a copy, unless they knew about the procedure. The problem is it is still, fundamentally, a copy -- "you" are that first consciousness that gets deleted in the process.

In other words, let's back up to saying there's the V you play as, V1, and the copy, V2, put into a new body, like you said. They are essentially, externally, the same person; but "being" one is not the same as "being" the other. What I'm basically saying, to try to simplify this whole ordeal, is that this is essentially what Soulkiller does; and then it kills V1.

To reiterate: the game just needs an ending that does away with the 6 month death clock. If CDPR wants to tackle these questions, fine. If not, fine. I want an ending where V lives, even if it requires some other, non-protagonist sacrifice to get it. Everything else is really just an aside, even if it is fun to talk about.

I understand, the reason that I think this question is important to hash out is I personally don't think saying "Actually, V doesn't only have 6 months in the Panam ending" isn't a good ending, either, unless you're ok with V2 living instead of V.

 

[dracon45]

Seeing some topics here in the forum I was generating a certain expectation regarding the addition of a nice ending through a DLC, but after thinking a little I realized that this probably will not happen, I know that a cyberpunk story and there is that question the consequences of your actions in case V, but I know you kind of get attached to the character and the NPCs and you don’t want to kind of let go of them so you generate a hope of wanting to see them again with something new based on what you’ve chosen in the game.

Sorry for trash english :/ - i hope everyone understand

 

[neocyril]

If its not to much of a bother I would really like for you guys to share your thoughts (more like gripes) over on the thread I made.

Much appreciated for anyone that responds and satiates my curiosity.

(SPOILERS) The curious case of Cyberpunk 2077 and CDPR

I would like to start by saying hello to you all... It does not matter whether you love the game, whether you hate the game or you are just like me and many others disappointed in the final product we ended up getting... I say hello to you all. Since I had an interesting conversation with...

forums.cdprojektred.com

 

[Cyber.D.G.]

Seeing some topics here in the forum I was generating a certain expectation regarding the addition of a nice ending through a DLC, but after thinking a little I realized that this probably will not happen, I know that a cyberpunk story and there is that question the consequences of your actions in case V, but I know you kind of get attached to the character and the NPCs and you don’t want to kind of let go of them so you generate a hope of wanting to see them again with something new based on what you’ve chosen in the game.

Sorry for trash english :/ - i hope everyone understand

Everybody knows that this won't happen. Even those, who are saying that they're hoping for that.
Most of the ppl are here (I think) just to release some emotions, to let the steam out. Like me.
Bc these endings pissing me off. Even more than the "buggy mess" state of the game, that its curently in. Even more, than the lack of interractivity of this big, pointless city, with only a bunch of "kill these guys" side-quests. Even more, than castrated RPG\dialog\storytelling system, that not allowing you to build "your own V", and I dont mean perks. Its always the same guy\girl, with the same perspective. More than the fact, that its not an RPG I was promised, that we all were promised, but just an average shooter, with some RPG appendages..

 

[Simuxas]

The ending with Soulkiller and copy of V is really convoluted. Every person will interpret it differently, like we are doing it right now, but that is good. Some of us might think there is no soul, just electric impulses doing their thing in our brain (sorry I'm no doctor) some might think there is a soul, and soulkiller kills actual person and leaves a fake copy of it.

We could argue about this forever and never reach the end of it, which would have been probably the best ending we could have right now, if not at all, if they would have just removed those 6 months to live. Sure it might be a lie, but it just brings even more confusion that we don't need. Alt might be lying to keep V as a great Netrunner or is just malevolent cybernetic being that wants to consume everything.

Could have ended like that and brought us back to the city after some time with all the friends and lovers that you left.

 

[BGM45]

Everybody knows that this won't happen. Even those, who saying that they're hoping for it.
Most of the ppl are here (I think) just to release some emotions, to let the steam out. Like me.

well Bethesda retconned their FO3 ending in a DLC, and Bioware actually conjured up some will to add a fuck-you Refuse ending and some animated slides of crew members smiling. who knows what CDPR decides to do in the end.