[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[Simuxas]

Something keeps chewing at me, and maybe the rest of you can sort it out.

Alt says that V's consciousness and mind would be preserved. Well, there's doctrine in various religions and other bits of esoterics that suggest that consciousness, or the ability to self-identity, self-awareness, is evidence of the soul.

The larger discussion you could have, or perhaps consider is, is consciousness the soul? There's evidence to suggest that the brain works in data like a computer would or does. Was V's self-awareness, consciousness, is it the same one, not a copy? She Alt said everything else would be burned out, but what does that mean? Was she just being obtuse and vague or was she saying what we've all thought she was referring to?

This does make me think of another movie. Had Johnny Depp in it. Transfers his mind into a computer and things go bad/weird/whatever.

I don't know if I'm drawing or coming to any kind of point, but it's something that's stuck with me. Because, and take it from one atheist/agnostic's point of view; to me, consciousness is evidence of a soul, or whatever equivalent to one might be. Is Engram V conscious? Self-aware? And if so, what does that mean.

I'm still not sold on the 'is he or isn't a copy'. I don't know, the more I think about it, the less conclusive answer I draw from the my own shower thoughts on it to what the game offers me for information.

If you believe that conciousness is a soul, then it is real V.

 

[MeinChurro]

2) In the game's menu screen, on the block labeled "The Countdown", it finishes by saying "Evelyn Parker, Anders Helman, Arasaka - you'll have to track down every lead to make it through this alive."

That's not a character in the game lying to V. That's THE GAME lying to me, the player. The promise that if you track down all the leads, finish all three questlines, you'll somehow make it through alive. I don't expect the endings to come easy, but i do expect them to be possible.

Actually, I think it's all just cut and spliced together content done improperly; rushed.

 

[Simuxas]

 

[Kikinho]

It looks to me like, they seriously weren't ready for the deadline earlier this year, so they resolved themselves to making an action-adventure, rather than the RPG with the full breadth they promised originally. They spliced together this game, then set to work on the elephant in the room - performance, bug fixes, etc.. Something they are still working on today. If this is the case, their plans are probably a complete mess as of now. Even if they have some sort of plot in mind that incorporates and gives further context on these endings, I think it may be in complete shambles.

We may be in for one heck of a ride when it comes to this game.

We are already on that ride and I feel most of us here have already experienced the first dive.

 

[MeinChurro]

View attachment 11091392

This is because people don't wait to review a game on Steam. Most of these reviews will be from the very first quarter of the game, at best the first half, but definitely not the ending.

 

[headache247]

it's been 8 years and I don't remember it in every detail, but it basically started with completely ignoring the outcry and them proceeded to grudgingly promising to fix SOME problems (in the original version, for example, it was unclear what happened to Normandy - it just crash-landed somewhere and that's it, enjoy; also, something was changed about the colour parts themselves? like they were made a bit more diverse, not just a copy-paste with different colours).

as for Cyberpunk, I got to Arasaka ending, thought oh well, I guess I just chose the wrong one role-playing as a hardcore corpo, went to see what else is up, and ended up here. because nothing else is up. especially my spirits.

damn, thats ice cold. i know they came out with the "fix" of shepard taking a sharp breath only if you picked the destroy option.

i hope they dont end up like BW and come out with another option

 

[MeinChurro]

We are already on that ride and I feel most of us here have already experienced the first dive.

Yep. I can attest to that.

 

[Simuxas]

We are already on that ride and I feel most of us here have already experienced the first dive.

Feels like driving Lancia Beta, all good at the start, but the further we drive, thing keeps breaking more and more.

 

[amsquared]

This does make me think of another movie. Had Johnny Depp in it. Transfers his mind into a computer and things go bad/weird/whatever.

That was the movie Transcendence.

Oddly enough, it had a similar structural issue to CP2077. It started as a movie about uploading one's brain, whether or not an advanced computer can feel emotions, and a love story, and turned into benevolent Skynet without guns. It started as a fun romp through a world of "what ifs" and turned into an action movie with little action, basically.

Personally I hated it because it assumed that the answer is no, a computer cannot feel. I disagree. And the entire remainder of the plot does not work if it can.

 

[GreyRaconteur]

If you believe that conciousness is a soul, then it is real V.

That's where it sticks for me. Alt said 'consciousness', that word was used specifically. Not just your 'mind, thoughts, personality', but consciousness. If she hadn't said that word, it would been, for me, "That's not V, that's a copy, full stop."

But I guess this is the kind of philosophical question that makes me sit and ponder. Which is partially why I love stuff like GitS and I can appreciate CDPR for positing the question to begin with.

 

[mouser9169]

I understand the frustration a lot of people feel whether it be with the story or the gameplay. But if you consider the whole picture there's clearly a lot of moving pieces under the hood and CDPR grossly underestimated the time-effort ratio.

Witcher 3 wasn't born in a year. It had build up from a very rough but somewhat memorable first game, to a second slightly more engrossing experience (along with the console port that brought in a whole new contingency of players).

Mind you, I'm not going to bat for CDPR. There's clearly some serious foundational changes that need to happen internally at the company from top to bottom. Despite the rough edges the foundational core of Cyberpunk is here and relatively solid. We have glimpses of what I feel is a promising start. Going forward we can only hope that it can only get better, not worse. They've said as much in their release statements. Empty words? Maybe. Witcher 3 was in a rough state but the conversation surrounding that game now is about how great it is and not how rough the launch was.

I think I spent a significant amount of my time hating Fallout for what it had become, and it didn't make me feel any better. It just poisoned the watering well for myself, and others who enjoyed it despite the identity crisis. Looking back at it I can accept it for what it is. I'm sure in a year I will be doing the same with Cyberpunk (I'm still fond of the game as it is), provided CDPR is as dedicated as we all are to seeing this game through to the finish line and beyond.

Mechanically, the game is great (once the bugs and glitches get fixed). They've built a visually amazing city on a solid engine with nice systems. That can all be polished up and built on.

We're talking about the story here, though. The narrative beats. What is the point of the 'six months to live'? What does it add to the story? Did V need to sacrifice even more to earn the ending?

This really is a story about futility. Our friend is taken from us, then our life (the first time). We lose our shot at revenge. We lose our life again to Soulkiller, and then we lose our chance to live on beyond that (as well as everything else we lost along the way).

We were told this would be a replayable game. That there would be different paths, and different choices. Maybe CDPR is just extending the metaphor by playing us the way V got played in the game...

 

[Simuxas]

That's where it sticks for me. Alt said 'consciousness', that word was used specifically. Not just your 'mind, thoughts, personality', but consciousness. If she hadn't said that word, it would been, for me, "That's not V, that's a copy, full stop."

But I guess this is the kind of philosophical question that makes me sit and ponder. Which is partially why I love stuff like GitS and I can appreciate CDPR for positing the question to begin with.

Well, if you have no consciousness, you basically are nothing, just a mindless animal. Me personally, I believe it's real V. What i heat is those damn unnecesarry 6 months to live.

 

[Kikinho]

Something keeps chewing at me, and maybe the rest of you can sort it out.

Alt says that V's consciousness and mind would be preserved. Well, there's doctrine in various religions and other bits of esoterics that suggest that consciousness, or the ability to self-identity, self-awareness, is evidence of the soul.

The larger discussion you could have, or perhaps consider is, is consciousness the soul? There's evidence to suggest that the brain works in data like a computer would or does. Was V's self-awareness, consciousness, is it the same one, not a copy? She Alt said everything else would be burned out, but what does that mean? Was she just being obtuse and vague or was she saying what we've all thought she was referring to?

This does make me think of another movie. Had Johnny Depp in it. Transfers his mind into a computer and things go bad/weird/whatever.

I don't know if I'm drawing or coming to any kind of point, but it's something that's stuck with me. Because, and take it from one atheist/agnostic's point of view; to me, consciousness is evidence of a soul, or whatever equivalent to one might be. Is Engram V conscious? Self-aware? And if so, what does that mean.

I'm still not sold on the 'is he or isn't a copy'. I don't know, the more I think about it, the less conclusive answer I draw from the my own shower thoughts on it to what the game offers me for information.

I feel most people are confused by that very logic too. I feel most of us would have accepted that the CTRL+V (as people seem to have headcanoned him) was a perfect copy of him/her and could continue their lives like before. But then Alt comes in tells us about the death of the soul, and how nothing is going to be the same after. It's confusing because the game doesn't allow us to have our own conclusion, but it's not willing to elaborate on what Alt meant and what it would mean for V's future. I mean we know what it means for his limited future and that is a whole different issue for many.

 

[Berelathereal]

I got the happy ending I wanted. I dont know what else you guys are doing.

 

[Simuxas]

Oh boy here we go.

 

[Kikinho]

I got the happy ending I wanted. I dont know what else you guys are doing.

Well you can read through the thread and find out!

 

[AKANexus]

This is because people don't wait to review a game on Steam. Most of these reviews will be from the very first quarter of the game, at best the first half, but definitely not the ending.

They meant the RPG tag on Steam

 

[amsquared]

I feel most people are confused by that very logic too. I feel most of us would have accepted that the CTRL+V (as people seem to have headcanoned him) was a perfect copy of him/her and could continue their lives like before. But then Alt comes in tells us about the death of the soul, and how nothing is going to be the same after. It's confusing because the game doesn't allow us to have our own conclusion, but it's not willing to elaborate on what Alt meant and what it would mean for V's future. I mean we know what it means for his limited future and that is a whole different issue for many.

Yep. And you know what would solve this?

If we actually got to keep playing the game after the ending - provided we got an ending where V doesn't die - instead of ploping us back at the "point of no return" save.

This is, I think, the other half of the problem. Not only does V get the BS 6 month death clock, it's also told to us, not shown. If the process put her in agonizing pain and she spent those last 6 months zonked out on pain killers or something, I still wouldn't be okay with that, but at least it would make sense. A brief PLAYABLE epilogue for each ending could solve a lot of this.

Game still needs an optional happy ending, though.

 

[BGM45]

I understand the frustration a lot of people feel whether it be with the story or the gameplay. But if you consider the whole picture there's clearly a lot of moving pieces under the hood and CDPR grossly underestimated the time-effort ratio.

Witcher 3 wasn't born in a year. It had build up from a very rough but somewhat memorable first game, to a second slightly more engrossing experience (along with the console port that brought in a whole new contingency of players).

Mind you, I'm not going to bat for CDPR. There's clearly some serious foundational changes that need to happen internally at the company from top to bottom. Despite the rough edges the foundational core of Cyberpunk is here and relatively solid. We have glimpses of what I feel is a promising start. Going forward we can only hope that it can only get better, not worse. They've said as much in their release statements. Empty words? Maybe. Witcher 3 was in a rough state but the conversation surrounding that game now is about how great it is and not how rough the launch was.

I think I spent a significant amount of my time hating Fallout for what it had become, and it didn't make me feel any better. It just poisoned the watering well for myself, and others who enjoyed it despite the identity crisis. Looking back at it I can accept it for what it is. I'm sure in a year I will be doing the same with Cyberpunk (I'm still fond of the game as it is), provided CDPR is as dedicated as we all are to seeing this game through to the finish line and beyond.

yeah, I think we forget that the game is just a week old. and people seem to have forgotten or just don't know what a disaster TW2 was on launch - some people couldn't get it running because the game tried to fry their pc. I've played on a mid-tier system and had to replay the prologue again and again a dozen times because it kept freezing, lagging, crashing, and generally bugging out.

that said, back then in 2011 CDPR was at best an AA-studio, a far cry from what they are now. it was their first run with their own custom engine. and, honestly, the fanbase was much smaller and consisted mainly of far more devoted and forgiving people who came to play TW2 not because of outstanding marketing but because they had the pleasure to play TW1 in the late 00s. I'm one of them.

now I feel like CDPR themselves have forgotten where they've started. if you remember that post on reddit from presumably an ex-employee, there is a sentence there about how the management kept repeating that they are making "the game of the century". if nothing else out of that whole post, I believe this sentiment. pair this unhealthy sense of self-grandiosity with lackluster management and meddling from higher-ups we heard about post-TW3, and you get a recipe for disaster.

I totally agree that Cyberpunk has a great basis, and honestly, apart from missing customization features and the story, I find it nearly perfect for my taste. just yesterday I managed to run away from Scavengers after they kidnapped me by jumping from the balcony and then running through the streets, naked and with no guns or money, to my flat where I sentimentally stored V's original clothes, after which I proceeded to pick up trash until I had enough money to heal. I adore immersive sims, played most of them repeatedly for years, and not one of them ever gave me that experience and feeling of freedom to do what I want. just for that Cyberpunk is a awesome in my book - but it could and should be even better.

 

[Buckadoz]

If V2 doesn't know she's V2, and Panam doesn't know she's V2, and literally nobody besides Alt, who V will never meet again, knows she's V2, then I think no, it doesn't matter at all. As far as V2 knows, she's just V.

Even if she is aware that she's an Engram of her former self, as long as she treats Johnny's Engram as a full person, I see no reason why Engram V would feel any different about herself, and THAT'S what I want. I want V to find peace. I want all the choices I made for her to lead her down a path towards life, not death. It doesn't have to be a flawless, perfect life. Say she gets awful headaches every few days or something, idc. Simply being rewarded for everything she went through long enough to live out her life to its natural conclusion is enough for me. She's a merc, she'll probably catch a bullet in 6 months anyway, and I'm fine with that. I want her to live until then, because she did all the things she needed to do to survive, and to tell her "nope too bad, you die now" is not good enough.

I mean, CDPR made this into a survival story. It didn't start that way, and wasn't sold that way. They MADE it about survival. Well guess what? Survival stories where the hero doesn't survive have been rare since the dawn of the printing press (until recent RPGs, apparently) for good reason. Nobody wants them.

Back to your question, I guess my point here is that if V2 doesn't feel like has she lost anything by becoming an Engram of herself, then did she really lose anything? She has already replaced her eyes and her hand with Cyberware versions. My own V has replaced just about everything with Cyberware, all slots filled, but even if you want to keep your V somewhat "pure" you can't remove the Cyberware eyes. To say that an V2 is not V is like saying that V is blind once she has her Cyberware eyes. V2, since she is a complete copy of her psyche, is no less V than her organic brain version was.

If anything, she's V2 in the sense that she's a better, upgraded version of her former self. A nanite brain could self-repair if she gets shot in the head again. It would be immune to degenerative diseases like Altzeimers or Dimentia. In fact, one of the news broadcasts in the game on the TVs states that MLS is one of the few conditions that is not treatable with Cyberware. Yet, with a nanite brain and an additional nanite spinal chord, V would be immune to MLS, making her the only person on earth with such immunity.

So yes, I'm perfectly fine with V2 living, because V2 is just V with another, advanced piece of Cyberware, that just happens to also save her from death. V2 is absolutely still V. She's not V1, but she is V. I'm not okay with neither of them surviving, though.

Also, I haven't played the Panam ending, but my understanding is she only has 6 months to live that way, too. That's my whole issue, basically. We have choices to make, but they don't matter. If you're just nice to Johnny, you unlock the secret ending and that also gives V six months. No matter which angle you try to work it from, V dies.

Personally, I'd like what I suggested before. Find Johnny's arm and trick the Relic into not killing V in the first place. It's a clean answer to an otherwise very murky problem.

I guess the only thing I have left to add is that if you're ok with seeing how V2's life plays out then more power to you I guess, but as far as I'm concerned the only V I cared about is the one that gets erased with Soulkiller -- I don't see any potential DLC or alternate ending, for me personally, that can be fulfilling without avoiding Soulkiller altogether.