How much time does V get to run around with the chip, a couple of weeks? That's not a great amount of time to start thinking about what their purpose is. Also, they'd better be focusing on getting that chip out, cause no life = no purpose.
But does the player get to voice their V's purpose clearly in the game (as opposed to roleplaying in their head)?
- V wants ambition -- you don't know that this ending hides behind "give way to Johnny" ending (makes much more sense with Arasaka solo)
- V wants friends/family/love -- presented as the Nomads' ending; Judy decides to leave with nomads specifically. But if your friends/family/love are River and Kerry, you'll regret clicking on this one.
- Arasaka's ending -- you could imagine that V wanted to work/continue working for Arasaka. But the MQ doesn't get to explore that too much (just once you can tell Hanako if you're a corpo that you would love your job back). So, this one is more of an ending for the sake of an ending.
1) when people are closer to death is when they tend to think about it more, but I get your idea of the immediacy. Still the game shows you where that leads, The worst ending possible is if you do nothing but MSQ, aka survival, but it allows you to go back after and explore the other "purposes". So it comes off as, its not just about survival.
2) many of these plotlines are to be continued, the games is a part1.
most of the driving forces are not resolved.
generally you are only part of the way through any arc.
a)love means you must survive while making your partner's life better. All relationships are still early, and you only moderately improved their lives. it is unbalanced, as female LIs are directly together, but I think in the end it'll even out.
b)make a mark is exemplified with Jackie, but V doesn't think they are there yet, they haven't done something that means something, they just have fame/money
c)corpo, they are back with arasaka, but they aren't valued yet
d)family, nomads have more resources, but more danger, their future is uncertain. Panam is still a short term leader with no Saul for balance.
the only plotline that comes to an end is Johnny, because his plotline is a 1 parter. He relived his life putting friends/personal first.
I think if they hadn't messed up release so bad, they would be promoting the future content by now, and the endings would be less problematic, because it wouldn't be seen as the end of V's whole plotline.
I could be wrong though, maybe they want to leave it undone.
I wouldn´t put it that way. I don´t think she "abandoned" her idealism, instead I believe that she has just realised that it didn´t work with the NC environment. I believe that wherever Judy & V might go, she will take that idealism with her.
right, but where they leave the plotline, she isn't getting to express that part of herself. I believe her overall plotline when all is said and done will have her expressing that again, as you said.
The only ending I have a problem with are the ones in which you allow Johnny to keep your body. It seems like an a-hole thing to do not telling anyone what happened to V. Johnny seems like he just didn't want anything to do with your friends after the raid and everybody thinks V is just laying low or doesn't want anything to do with them. Giving them some closure would have been a kind thing to do and then he could go do his own thing with his new lease on life.
Maybe Johnny really never changed and was always playing that angle, to get your body and keep it for himself.
Johnny doesn't like sharing emotions with people, and I don't think he wants the body cannonicly. Talking to everyone who misses V, while he misses V himself, And he is the cause, and benefactor. He'd rather just be the bad guy V's friends would see him as and disappear. He changed, but that'd be pretty far out of his capabilities.
I could understand Johnny not lettting know anyone about what happened. Its not easy to show up in Judys doors saying "Hi, no, its not V, its Johnny in V`s body in front of you. V is dead". I think he was afraid to have this kind of discussion and wanted to protect V`s friends even than probably some of them would likely wanted to know what is true. You might not agree with what he has done, but its a choice that can be explained.
In this ending I only have a problem why Rogue is dead and Johnny says he is sorry if you picked Panam route? Is it a bug?
I could understand Johnny not lettting know anyone about what happened. Its not easy to show up in Judys doors saying "Hi, no, its not V, its Johnny in V`s body in front of you. V is dead". I think he was afraid to have this kind of discussion and wanted to protect V`s friends even than probably some of them would likely wanted to know what is true. You might not agree with what he has done, but its a choice that can be explained.
In this ending I only have a problem why Rogue is dead and Johnny says he is sorry if you picked Panam route? Is it a bug?
Many of them were aware of the situation though (Misty, Victor, Judy and Kerry for sure are. You tell Panam, but I'm not sure if she "gets" it. No idea about River, didn't come up in dialogue with him during my playthrough at least), sending a message saying V's gone (no need to go in person, that would be needlessly awkward imho) would at least put their minds at ease.
That is, unless Johnny is going to go look for a way to bring V back (which it doesn't appear like he is, but he is leaving NC, maybe headed same place the Aldecaldos are, I mean, Johnny also has/had connections...), even then, could let people know things didn't quite work out.
Confused about the ending of a bunch of Cyberpunk 2077 quests? There's a reason for that.
www.forbes.com
Sure we can argue that he is not a lead writer, but on the other hand side quest are meant to augment the MQ and endings is fitting the definition of vagueness like a glove. Also it's not like those endings were created on a whim, there was a debate plus there was overall vibe of the game (again with ambiguity in mind) - many quests just ends, with little more story to them.
For me personally, I'm not so much annoyed by the endings being vague, as by them being inconsistent (especially the slides vs the actual ending. Imho we'd almost have been better off without those credit-slides, which arguably would make the endings even vaguer, with even less closure for the "supporting cast"). Then there's having a deus-ex-machina thrown in as well, as a (imho) pretty clear set-up to be able to continue V's story.
That, and the lack of any semblance of choice of what your V does after you deal with Mikoshi. What V wants is decided by the writers entirely based on how you go into the ending, leading to outcomes that may make very little sense based on how people played their V. Basically, the only way to get to the outcome one might envision for their V (meaning, not necessarily the "best" outcome, but the most "logical") is by knowing which of the different choices "on the roof" leads to which outcome (and then probably get gut-punched by the ending slides, but I digress)
If you do a vague ending well, people will speculate, possibly want for more, but are unlikely to be frustrated (eg. NieR: Automata). CP2077's ending, on the other hand, was frustrating (well, at least to me).
I wholeheartedly agree that I do hope they continue on from this point so we can get a satisfying conclusion, which does not necessarily mean a "happily ever after", but something where people can say "Ok, I can live with that." (again, see NieR, or hell, Baldur's Gate 2: Throne of Bhaal, which doesn't end particularly well if you romance Viconia...)
The alt gobble theory is more about other peoples perceptions rather than alt's perspective on her own motivations. She sees the net as a place of freedom for engrams, when V asks her.
I don't think alt would be ok with destroying another consciousness/soul to have a body, She also seems to have grown out of it, at the discussion in the end, she basically says it makes no sense for digital consciousnesses to tie themselves to physical bodies, Johnny responds thats part of being human.
She may have changed over time, but her main beef with mikoshi is guilt/revenge/engram rights.
Naw I don't think engram Alt has the ability to feel guilt or vengeful, whatever she does is just the most efficient means to her ends which would be whatever is in her programming, we don't know for sure yet.
She killed Hanako I believe not out of revenge but because she needs Arasaka out of the way.
Naw I don't think engram Alt has the ability to feel guilt or vengeful, whatever she does is just the most efficient means to her ends which would be whatever is in her programming, we don't know for sure yet.
She killed Hanako I believe not out of revenge but because she needs Arasaka out of the way.
but even though she says she is logical, bits of the old alt creep through. She comes across the blackwall to see Johnny. Her desire to destroy mikoshi isnt really logical. She is clearly annoyed if you come see her the second time while suppressing Johnny.
If she killed hanako though, I doubt it was for revenge. I don't know their full interactions, so I am not sure, but when mikoshi captured her and she got a message to johnny she told him not to make matters worse because it would cost lives(she was ai alt at this time).
Now 50 years has definitely changed her, and she is less empathic, so who knows for sure. It would be pretty interesting to interact with alt more. I wonder if its in the plans.
You can have a whole conversation about it the morning after when you romance him. So the least Johnny could do is text everyone (or the "most important" ones). But Johnny is Johnny.
Alright, can we be clear on one thing? You may not like the fact the endings are less happy than you wanted. You may not like the fact that not everything goes your way. Your preference in media I suppose, and that's where the poll started: do you want happy or no.
That doesn't make the rest of the writing atrocious swiss cheese because you like happy. Plot Cancer, Cancer ex Machina, "Artificial Asspull", and on and on. V dying of a virtually incurable effect while having her personality/soul/consciousness overwritten and chasing slim leads to stop that is, in fact, the plot. Screaming about that being Artificial is accurate only in the sense that the entire thing is at the end of the day a piece of narrative fiction.
They didn't suddenly make up a new plot in the last few seconds, they didn't suddenly introduce a brand new player, they didn't have V living a perfectly healthy merc life and then suddenly decide V has six months to live. V was dying and being overwritten, rapidly, and was told by a lot of people who have pretty grounded opinions - like doctors and the guy who designed the thing - that there is no real cure. Two less than reliable actors offer vague solutions that V doesn't entirely understand in return for favors. V makes a deal and it turns outside the other side can only partially pay, what with this being an entirely new and unexplored area of medicine and handling the soul/consciousness working under extreme conditions. As opposed to dying at the next attack where the Relic malfunctions, she gets six more months.
Nothing in that fails to track, represents a vast and sudden change in theme, plot, or characters. It just doesn't make you happy. There is a world of difference between the two.
You can have a whole conversation about it the morning after when you romance him. So the least Johnny could do is text everyone (or the "most important" ones). But Johnny is Johnny.
If I still remember this correctly, in Johnny's ending you can open the phone messages and the messages from River will go like "V, where are you", "V, I'm looking for u all around NC", ..... "Johnny? If it's you, you owe me an explanation, man, just this".
So yeah, totally up for Johnny sending a text message at least!
And the second reason why this would make perfect sense is since V has a choice to tell people that Johnny's in their head. So they are already supposed to know. (And even then Johnny could just text them that V is gone, no detail).
I have a question: What happens to Saul if you reject Panam's Riders on the Storm or don't show up at the Wraith's stronghold? Anyone walked that way? I just read that you would get a final message from Panam, what would she write?
Edit: Solved. Saul dies. So V is the only reason Saul even lives later on.
If I still remember this correctly, in Johnny's ending you can open the phone messages and the messages from River will go like "V, where are you", "V, I'm looking for u all around NC", ..... "Johnny? If it's you, you owe me an explanation, man, just this".
So yeah, totally up for Johnny sending a text message at least!
And the second reason why this would make perfect sense is since V has a choice to tell people that Johnny's in their head. So they are already supposed to know. (And even then Johnny could just text them that V is gone, no detail).
No, it certainly doesn't. What does it the fact that this thread is 950 pages long and players still can't agree on:
1) how the relic works
2) how soulkiller works
3) what is Johnny
4) what Yorinobu's plans were and why he isn't chasing V
All of these are the crucial things in the game's plot. And that's swiss cheese
his redemption was to his friends he ignored in a previous life. He already tried the die for your ideals ending of his life, he regrets the way he treated his friends.
Also surviving while V loses their body isn't his good ending. V surviving and being a lil more kickass is his best ending. He didnt want to be the guy someone took a bullet for again.
It's not about running away. Running away happens later. Redemptive = talked to Alt and Rogue, bought the guitar and quit smoking. Even more: doesn't even let the teen smoke (that's hypocritical af, god I hate this ending )
It's not about running away. Running away happens later. Redemptive = talked to Alt and Rogue, bought the guitar and quit smoking. Even more: doesn't even let the teen smoke (that's hypocritical af, god I hate this ending )
Oh, and then if you choose to play as Johnny, get to Mikoshi and choose "I had to hack through the jungle", he starts giving V advice like "you should work out more cause your muscles suck".
Oh, and then if you choose to play as Johnny, get to Mikoshi and choose "I had to hack through the jungle", he starts giving V advice like "you should work out more cause your muscles suck".
No, it certainly doesn't. What does it the fact that this thread is 950 pages long and players still can't agree on:
1) how the relic works
2) how soulkiller works
3) what is Johnny
4) what Yorinobu's plans were and why he isn't chasing V
All of these are the crucial things in the game's plot. And that's swiss cheese
Post automatically merged:
Nah. Could say he redeemed himself in the ending, quit smoking, bought some kid a guitar and is a good boy now?
those things aren't that crucial to the plot, with the exception of probably the relic 2.0, because it apparently causes a lot of confusion.
2)soulkiller, plotwise all we need to know is it creates a digital consciousness
3)Johnny, plotwise hes someone erasing your consciousness
4)yorinobu plans are not central to the plot, but if you investigate, he is likely trying to weaken arasaka, and force a confrontation between arasaka and militech so that governments will reign them in again. He isn't chasing V, because V's knowledge isn't a threat to him. He is chasing takemura, because takemura is a threat.
now, I would love the notes on a lot of this stuff, they kinda decided relic is beyond V, but it would be nice if we could review Hellman's files, or go in depth with alt. But thats not really narritively, or plotwise necessary, any more than understanding archaeology is to watch Indiana jones.
those things aren't that crucial to the plot, with the exception of probably the relic 2.0, because it apparently causes a lot of confusion.
2)soulkiller, plotwise all we need to know is it creates a digital consciousness
3)Johnny, plotwise hes someone erasing your consciousness
4)yorinobu plans are not central to the plot, but if you investigate, he is likely trying to weaken arasaka, and force a confrontation between arasaka and militech so that governments will reign them in again. He isn't chasing V, because V's knowledge isn't a threat to him. He is chasing takemura, because takemura is a threat.
now, I would love the notes on a lot of this stuff, they kinda decided relic is beyond V, but it would be nice if we could review Hellman's files, or go in depth with alt. But thats not really narritively, or plotwise necessary, any more than understanding archaeology is to watch Indiana jones.
No, it certainly doesn't. What does it the fact that this thread is 950 pages long and players still can't agree on:
1) how the relic works
2) how soulkiller works
3) what is Johnny
4) what Yorinobu's plans were and why he isn't chasing V
All of these are the crucial things in the game's plot. And that's swiss cheese
1) The forum can't agree on the pseudoscience, which is a bit like having an argument about the how the flux capacitor makes a delorean travel through time. What we do know, as stated in game is that:
Relic 1.0 allowed you to create a digital construct of a person and talk to it. it does.
Relic 2.0 was supposed to allow to transfer a digital construct off the chip into a new body. Said body was supposed to be carefully chosen, and at least in initial concept, a "blank" which we're given to mean already brain-dead and specially prepared. That is all stated. How it IS working is that it is having Johnny overwrite V, who is not a blank, and in the process is causing physical and mental trauma. The body has been trashed in the process. This is the point where someone screams BUT NANNITES! BUT DNA! BUT PSEUDOSCIENCE! which is all rather irrelevant since from a plot perspective this is exactly how it's been working from the beginning.
2) It kills you and creates an engram copy of your soul/consciousness which then gets stored as a program/data. That is demonstrated and described. After that tit's all philosophy class, which some people are confusing for the narrative mechanics. I would be extremely surprised if one of the central question sets of the game "what makes you you? what makes up a soul or a consciousness? What measure a human?" had agreement on it. The narrative mechanics by which this digital copy are created - it's copied out of your mind by Sufficiently Advanced Science- are clearly stated.
3) JS is a digital construct, created by Soulkilling the original JS, on the Relic in V's head. He will, if not stopped, overwrite V's mind by Sufficiently Advanced Science and his consciousness will be housed in the V body. After that, philosophy class and big moral cyberpunk questions which cause disagreement, but for the right reasons, not because we don't know how he works plot wise.
4) We are given glimpses of his plans, but they are left deliberately not understood - V and friends don't have that much information. Based on his messages in Konpeki, he was planning on deliberately providing the chip to Netwatch, who had questions as to why it had to be JS on the chip. What exactly he wanted we may never know, but a stake in the blackwall war subplot seems most likely. Either way, it isn't that relevant to understanding V's plot.
The plot answer to searching is that 'saka DID send "all their tin soldiers" looking. Wakkao says as much. Exactly why they fail or stop is left unclear - but V would hardly know. Maybe Hannako-Oda-Takemura are running top cover. Maybe they're too busy with the internecine re-org between the three main factions of the board that Take talk's about. Maybe night city is just really big and chaotic with plenty of data and jurisdictional balkanization, and full of people who don't particularly want to help 'saka out and they just don't put the bits together in time. RPG heroes (really, all fictional protagonists) are always seemingly running in to precisely the right person/puzzle/timing/prophecy to solve things that other supposedly highly competent folks haven't, and the bad guys are always a step or two behind until the narrative requires otherwise.
In our case because we'd like to have a game that goes beyond "and after the Heist, 'saka hit the Delamain cab with a drone launched missile from 30k feet."
It's not wildly Realistic, but to say "swiss cheese" for following a convention pretty standard to multiple forms of media as a pre-req for protagonists not being smeared seems a stretch.
---------
In short, the arguments about philosophy or trying to make cases out of fictional science do not equal plot holes.
