Aight, calm down everyone. There are many different discussions going on at the same time. Since we went past 1000 posts already I think it's time someone summarised what has been discussed here, so far. I will try to do it in an as unbiased way as possible.
Aight, calm down everyone. There are many different discussions going on at the same time. Since we went past 1000 posts already I think it's time someone summarised what has been discussed here, so far. I will try to do it in an as unbiased way as possible.
We need good endings. The discussion that started it all.
- We have players that totally agree with the endings. Their reasoning: The Cyberpunk genre is supposed to have bad endings. They usually are "noir" stories that most of the times end up with the protagonist or the players on a bad or gray-area situation. Like Lovecraftian or Shakespearian stories. The story arc feels complete and editing, retconning, or adding stuff is unnecessary and will feel bland.
- We also have players that partially disagree with the endings. Their reasoning: Just because is a Cyberpunk game, it shouldn't just have bad endings. There could be just a variety of endings, both good, bad and in-between. Their peeve is just CDPR marketed the game with a "Choose your own lifepath", and in the end, all the paths lead to the same spot. They'd like more diversity on the endings.
- And we also have players that totally disagree with the endings. Their reasoning: This is a video-game. The story is excellent and the characters captivating. By killing off the main character, the game leaves a sour taste in your mouth and leaves the player depressed. Losing a character the game made you love and relate to is considered a poor move by CDPR and the game's writers. Some are even considering not finishing the main quest because of the inevitability of the story.
Our choices don't matter. The main reasoning for not replaying or enjoying the game as fully as possible.
- Those who agree say the game should have more meaningful choices. As we all know, the only important choice currently in the game is when Misty leaves you on Vik's roof and you have to decide, along with Silverhand what to do. No choice done during the game alters V's path. You can tell Dex and Jackie you don't want fame, and you can tell everyone you're not in for glory, but for eddies or survival. It still steers us to the "going out guns blazing" path. Depending on which side quests you finished, you get between 2 and 4 (5, if you count the secret ending) choices. Most of the choices don't matter in the end, because you just pick an ending right then and there. The users have already compared this type of ending with the infamous Mass Effect 3 so-called RGB ending. Why should we replay the game if all we need to see the other endings is choose a different answer to Silverhand's question?
- Those who disagree say the game do offer choices while you play. These choices don't need to mean different endings on different paths, they basically shape the way V floats towards the inevitable end. What matters is the trip between being a decommissioned Corpo, newcomer Nomad or rundown Streetkid and the moment where you decide how you want to go down. The replayability of the game is on how you deal with Night City on your way to your death.
Not a single ending V survives. Not even the Nomad ending.
- There are those who say even being a copy of the original V, Ctrl+V is still V. She might not be the original, but she has all memories and whatnot. It doesn't matter it's just a copy. This is a common trope in cyberpunk stories where the person is the sum of all its data, and you can transfer one's existence into another body at will.
- There are those who say Ctrl+V is not the original V anymore, so the character you fell in love and related to is dead, no matter what. You are only left with a shadow of what you actually went through the story with.
- And there are those who compare this situation with Ghost in the Shell, SOMA or Schrodinger's situations. The situation is inherently cloudy, as there is no actual way to determine how much Ctrl+V retains from V. They could be a perfect copy. Does Ctrl+V know she is a copy? Is she the same person she was right the moment before her engram was removed? She screams for she does not know.
What the DLC could bring? They will bring stuff, but how?
- The DLC could just be more and more side missions and gigs, since, the endings don't currently have a way to progress after the final mission. It would be hard for CDPR to pick a single ending to slap a post-game DLC on, as it would invalidate the other endings. In the end, the DLC will not change the outcome and will only serve as a way to inflate the mid-game.
- The DLC could be a mid-game content that would enable new endings, while still maintaining the original endings. It could bring new characters that could help V on her way to the grand finale and bring other options to the "endings" table, that could even mean she lives in the end.
- The DLC could be a post-game content that would expand on some of the endings. Users compare this to the Extended Finale DLC on Mass Effect 3, which didn't change the outcome, but gave a sense of closure to the story, rather than end the epic trilogy with a simple credits roll.
Basically that's the main points that have been discussed so far. Since this is an unbiased attempt to summarise everything I won't give my opinion. However, I will list some interesting posts that bring original points to the conversation that haven't been mentioned above:
@Silariell and
@MeinChurro said the game's protagonist is actually Silverhand, and the game uses V to show Silverhand's swan song with you just being a tool for him.
@IskrasFemme points out the story should adapt to the environment it is being released into. Cites FFXV which had to have its ending rewritten because people needed a happy ending. Cites also Star Wars which brought a happy ending on an era marred by recession and war. Ends with a statement: "Want to make your audience happy? Give it life, give it hope, in a context of death."
@MeinChurro also cites RDR2, in which you already know you are dying and there is nothing you can do about it, whereas in CP2077 the whole story hinges on you trying to save yourself and getting hoped up every step of the way, just to be killed off, making all your achievements during the game meaningless.
@Ehsanlol states they "dont think that the games MUST have happy ending (although i would appreciate it cus it makes me happy) but i think the games endings were lazy. "
@Qaddis states that although Cyberpunk stories tend to be grim and "noir", it's not WH40K grim
@RaimeWasTaken states that Grim stories don't need to exclusively have bad endings, and cites Witcher 3 and The Outer Worlds as examples, while
@Vejsa agrees and points the game tries to avoid happiness even when everything points to it
@Vejsa funnily points Stanley Parable had more endings with more variety while being stuck on an office building for the entire game
@KakitaTatsumaru and
@Cologan points out the V vs Ctrl+V discussion reminds them of the teletransportation paradox from Star Trek Enterprise, where the Federation started using teletransportation and people wondered whether everytime you used it, there was no sure way to determine whether you have been teletransported or simply a copy of you has been sent to another place
@A06-Soles states one of the main issues of the game is that the game immerses you so much on the universe it presents you, to just present you with a bunch of bad endings on an era where the humanity is earning for good endings on their lives. They waited 8 years for the game to come out, and when it did, they felt they were "a kid taking a trip to a theme park. Beating the game felt like [they] watched [their] best friend die at that themepark. Now [they] never want to visit that themepark again, because []they] know those memories will just flood back. [They]'d never be able to enjoy it the same. "
@Ashii points the game has you create V, "a protagonist that actually felt ALIVE through the whole game. She was angry, sad, happy, she had EMOTIONS. [...] And despite creating such great protagonist [the game} did her dirty and decided to kill her off in every ending, so Johnny could basically live. That's what [they] were afraid of when [they] learned that Johnny would be a passanger in V's head. That his role would be bigger than ours and [they] were right. "
@KeyranBlake says "It's their artistic right to write the story they want, like Bioware did with Mass Effect 3. It's in our rights, though, to say that it sucks as much as Game of Thrones, How I met your mother or Mass Effect 3 endings. Hell, even Mass Effect Andromeda was better than this! " as well as that CDPR lied to them during the marketing phase of the game, leaving much of what was stated behind, and providing a "bland shooter, fake rpg, with a railroad plot where anything you do it's pointless."
@BGM45 wonders whether " a somewhat positive ending exists, but it stayed on the cutting room floor, at least for now. " and wonders whether the rush to release the game prevented them from coming up with more believable endings
@AKANexus points the game's story would fit better in a movie or a book, due to the meaninglessness of the choices you make during the game.
@arnemaes says that the fact we are all vying for a better ending to V's story means the writers managed to come up with a character so well written that you almost create feelings for them
@AKANexus comes up with a bunch of possible new endings that he thinks befits the story and would fix some of the grudge people have against the current ones.
@Buckadoz points the game never treats the fact Soulkiller will kill V no matter what they do to remove Johnny's construct from her
@Siett13 points most choices are meaningless even during the game itself. on their second playthrough they noticed how the origin or the skill tree you invest into makes no difference. skill checks can be bypassed by simply doing a little more legwork
@Kaspar.Hauser reminds us that Pondsmith said "Cyberpunk wasn't about saving the world, but about saving yourself.", and that the whole story was well written with characters emotionally well developed and relatable, and that "The main mission quest design is very strong, maybe the most complex I saw in a game in recent years, and the character development is spot on. "
@AKANexus complains about the romancing system, since "Basically, once you get in their pants, they have practically nothing to offer you apart from some messages and a mention at the credits roll. The only distinction between "we f*ckin'" and "you are my best friend" is one decision on one quest, and a follow up quest. "
@Kaspar.Hauser also notes that there is, indeed a good ending. having 6 more months to spend with your new family, and/or you love interest is a good ending on a dystopic world as Night City
@BGM45 reminds us that Pathfinder: Kingmaker has such a bunch of diverse endings, even romancing the game's antagonist, which requires a precise string of events and decisions, which people wanted so much that guides and save editors were created to allow such ending.
@AKANexus comes up with some ideas for mid-game DLCs that could add new endings.
@Retro-_- says that their main issue with the "6 months" ending is that you don't get nothing after that, citing that "the length of the main quest is nowhere near the scale of the rest of the game or what CDPR represented it as. "
@Simuxas says that, although Cyberpunk was about saving yourself that is the only thing you can't even do in CP2077
@Motsie points out that, during the credits, Misty lays out cards for you on the Nomads ending, and that the cards shown, "Chariot, the Lovers, and the Sun are all portents of good things to come."
@mouser9169 reminds us that not all cyberpunk stories must have bad endings, using Blade Runner and Ghost in the Shell which had "at least cautiously optimistic, if not hopeful".
@nikolaskelset says a good formula for an rpg story is that "Short terms impact on the story and future quests, but a real one, that persist thru the whole experience. "
@Simuxas offers a tentative mid-game DLC that would unlock a "Save yourself" ending
@MeinChurro and
@AKANexus wonder if this thread would grow up to a point where it would be considered a backlash strong enough for CDPR to consider doing something about the endings, while
@BGM45 notes the same discussion is being had on Reddit and Twitter as well [the only personal note you'll see on this post - I think we might, just MIGHT have a thread big enough for them to notice us
]
@Silariell offers some suggestions on how to expand the current endings
@NChabb points Horizon Zero Dawn's Frozen Wilds managed to change the ending as a mid-game DLC
@Silariell notes how Divinity Original Sin 2's ending wasn't a "bad ending", yet the final boss seemed "tacked on a the last minute"
@cypherpunked2077 Stopped doing side missions and gigs the moment they were told V's life was at risk and the earlier they fixed it, the more chances V would have to survive. After knowing it didn't matter, they decided not to play anymore
@Prae255 felt like the game was like reading a book on V's life. A book they don't want to read anymore, giving up on their plans of making multiple playthroughs
@Motsie and
@hismastersvoice compare V/Ctrl+V problem with the Ship of Theseus thought experiment - "Is a vessel that has had all of its parts replaced still the same vessel?"
@marccspector cites a Gamestar interview with CDPR that states "Cyberpunk players can count on paid DLCs in a similar amount. The developers emphasize, however, that the story of the main game is over and that "no content is artificially held back for DLCs."."
@BGM45 hopes CDPR won't let this issue get to Mass-Effect-3-like proportions before taking steps to do something
@vinjard gives their opinion on what endings there should be
@BabalKabak also states Cyberpunk 2077's plot fits better on a non-interactive media than a video game
@Rawls quotes his post from June 2019 here he says "The word that keeps getting used in reference to the story of the game that I see is "noir." Noir and rags to riches / happy ending dont really go together. ". They remind us that the "entire cyberpunk genre is heavily influenced by noir storytelling. That means at best an ambiguous bittersweet ending. "
@xxSkyy wonders if the 60% of the game content cut to meet with the deadline didn't include more endings
@Silariell exemplifies how a "sad/sordid ending" doesn't mean a "dissatisfying ending" by using the Max Payne trilogy as an example
@Rawls says that not every story should have a "happily ever after" ending, and that's ok. what matters is the story itself, how it develops. that's whats important. "The themes of the game all point that way from the beginning. At best V's going to be remembered. The biochip with the chance at immortality going wrong and assuring death is a pretty good metaphor for the whole thing. "
@GreyRaconteur reminds us that the way Bethesda handled Fallout 3 ending-altering DLC fixed the issue of not letting you explore the open world after the main quest
@BGM45 says "noir" tropes and developments "stem from foolish decisions on part of the protagonist that they themselves like to lament", whereas in cyberpunk 2077 " [they] didn't make this choice - the writers did in a cutscene. [They're] all for noir stories, angst and bitter-sweet endings, but they've chosen a rather unfitting medium to tell this particular story, then."
@BabalKabak states that "good ending" is not the same as "meaningful ending", and the fact that all endings are the same don't leave you "food for thought" on V's path
@KeyranBlake reminds us that Witcher 3 had a very grim tone, and yet, had both good and bad endings
@Rawls points out that CP2077 is a story about someone trying to achieve/achieving immortality, and whether they are successful or not, and the different endings show whether V was successful in being immortalized or not
@Silariell points that "RPG games with custom protagonist tend to have people grow attached to their characters over hours and hours of playtime. Just murdering a player's custom character for the sake of a railroaded story never feels good.". They state that pen and paper games are more fitting for the kind of story where what matters is the path, not the end because the players actions alone lead to the character death, whereas to do that in a video game "is like a bad DM that just pushes the story toward where they want it to go, disregarding most of the players' wishes."
@BGM45 says that in spite of the game showing V's path to becoming a legend, their V (as in the character they played) clearly stated to Dex that she is not looking to "become the best" as this is "pure fantasy" - their V just want to survive, nothing more, yet the game doesn't give you this path, and that the if the game gives an option to decide their motives, it should also honour their choice.
@KeyranBlake agrees with the point made, stating that the one who wants to become a legend is Jackie, while V just joins him along the ride. finally
@Kikinho also agrees, stating in spite of anything we do before we die, whatever was accomplished is meaningless
@DarthManwe wonders if getting rid of V is what CDPR had in mind to open up Night City to the multiplayer scene without having to deal with "loose ends"
@HonestBenny and
@MeinChurro agree that the disregard of the player choice makes CP2077 more like an action-adventure game rather than an RPG, and that the game is too much on-rails to be considered an RPG
@DarthManwe points that even if they were to stick to the cyberpunk genre tropes, the game is missing the impact on the world the player can have. "Sadness is not the problem, tone is not the problem, but the lack of agency is. Not allowing full berth of truly dark Cyberpunk endings where you would have agency to occur is. "
@Motsie notes "We were told we would be really satisfied by the endings but it's cautiously optimistic at best, and certainly not satisfying to most if this thread is any indication."
@Kaspar.Hauser says they understand playing a 70h game to have only bad endings might be frustrating, but from their contact with the cyberpunk genre, those endings were fully expected, and explains how Blade Runner's ending was actually a bad ending and
@brokensaintvxvx adds stating that "Most Cyberpunk is just "They died, and the world keeps on turning," or, "he did his thing, but got screwed out of everything" Or the most common "They sacrificed everything for this one singular moment...." End. Nothing. Just End. "
@Prae255 says cyberpunk is "supposed to be a bleak and dark future where you're just a speck in the gears of the corporate machine.", but that kind of story belongs to a novella, rather than an expensive game with a handful of bleak endings, as they play games for fun and escapism from the real life daily grind.
@crawfordman agrees, stating that unfortunately 2020 was a shit year to be alive due to the current events, and that we all could use a "good ending" to boost our morale
On a funny note,
@LingTheSTO NEEDS A HAPPY ENDING!!!!!!
@Alenheim says they'd cap the five skill trees if that was what it took to get the happy ending, and suggests the "6 months to die" is a placeholder for a future post-game DLC which would allow the player to go on a quest to save V's life
@KakitaTatsumaru cites a developer interview where they enforced the different endings and that the subplots changed the main plot of the game, something never done before.
@Kawooozie compares the game as it is to having amazing sex with someone that they'd end up learning had a highly contagious STD. "Did [they} enjoy while it happened? Yes. Are [they] mad once [they] knew the whole story? VERY. Would [they] do it again? NO." They also state that if you compare the three endings, V is only a side character, a tool, to be used either by Johnny, Alt or Arasaka, and not the "main character".
@MeinChurro quotes a post from the Steam forums and states the biggest issue is the story doesn't match the medium.
@Subenu says that "neither V, nor Johnny are the protagonists of this story. It's Night City. "
@hismastersvoice says the game was written like a pen and paper campaign would be and fits perfectly on a game that claims to be an RPG. they say the game does allow you to roleplay V as you like, but the story is still the same, it's about how you live
@Kikinho says the endings offered no closure, no lesson to be learnt
@BGM45's V was a run down corpo office dweller, never wanted fame or anything. as soon as they got stability they would leave the merc life behind.
@hismastersvoice says they are content with the way the story was told, for the game gave them "plenty of space to form a V that was [their] own, even if it did not allow [them] to shape the world around V to a more pleasing form."
@BGM45 cites Disco Elysium as another RPG where your choices mattered. Whereas "[Disco Elysium] lets you tell your story to the very end, Cyberpunk continuously interrupts you and then tells the punchline it wants to tell. "
@BlackHawkV asks "pleaasssee CDPR do not let it end like that!! This game deserves so much better "
@Melra, in spite of liking Keanu Reeves as an actor, "was just looking forward to getting the thing out of V's head so []they] could go back to enjoying the game the way [they] did before and during the heist. ", and states that "The story [...] felt like a rush to get this thing out, so [they] could get back to exploring the world and getting immersed in it, but it never happened. Hell, you can't even get it out in a satisfying manner. "
@RayBotty is in favour of the story being more suitable to a passive medium (novel, movie, TV show, comic book, etc)
@Melra thinks its in CDPR's best interests to at least acknowledge that they are willing to review the story/endings other than just bugfixing and performance, as they think people will get the game, go through it, and "take advantage of the digital refunds, after they finish the game and experience what many others already have.". They state that "To have an idea what they are planning on doing with the story, would likely help alleviate concerns people currently have or if not that, then the people could take their refunds and leave the people who still have a reason to be invested in the game, to continue the discussion surrounding the game. "
Also, moderators, if this could be pinned, I'm willing to keep it updated as the thread progresses!
