You see to me at least showcasing what Johnny might have to live for through the story would be the way to pull heartstrings and set up a Johnny choice. Just dropping a universal murder bomb on V is atrocious and does nothing to sell Johnny choice to me at least.
well ya, he got post traumatic stress, abit obsessed about the narrative that the corps are out to destroy the world and him. I
Buuuut doesn't mean he's wrong.
I think thats a part of it, but mostly its probably a hook for the next story. They have other possible reasons each V might need to continue/follow a specific path, but the only one they can be sure of is that they want to survive(one of 3 final choices).
This narrows the possible future of the character. Lets say they wanted to make a dlc, without the 6 month thing. what would b V's motivation? they don't know what any of our V's actually value, or why they would be in X position.
V's life sentence is why nomad ending V has to stay with Aldecado, even if they are less enthused. It's why sun V has to go to space, even if they would rather chill with river/kerry. And its why corpo V signs their soul away to Arasaka, even if they don't particularly believe Arasaka is their path to security/success.
It'd pretty hard to write any future for the myriad V's without at least one clear agreed upon motivation.
I was quite obviously referring to Johnny controlling the body, which he explicitly asks (and often threatens) to do multiple times in the story. Obviously Johnny is not responsible for the relic.
i figure all you need to do is tie as many motivations into a new plotline as possible, so... a combination of putting your friends in danger & avenging a fallen comrade, add a major pay check, and perhaps putting a lot of civies in jeopardy for good measure.
---edit)
and don't forget that F**koff & leave me alone option that swings back around to bite you in the a** too, just to force a "lazy" v to get back into the action.
Well yes, but why would the "problem" be the exact same in both endings? Hellman mentions that you and Johnny are intertwined to an extent he thinks is irreversible when you first question him.
So if Arasaka scrubbed Johnny from your consciousness entirely I'd imagine that would "break" V in a different fashion (mentally, I'd imagine) than the whole DNA rejection shtick if you let Alt do it (Alt even explicitly mentions she had to leave bits of Johnny in there because, well, they had replaced "you" in those bits).
The fact that the issues are presented as being exactly the same, combined with the exact same "expiry date" on V just screams "CLIFFHANGER" to me. If they intended for this to be "the end" there was no need for the "problems" and timelines to be the same in both endings, hell, as I see things it would have made more sense if they were not.
Note that in neither case I am clamouring for a "happy" ending, it's just the way that the entire DNA thing is presented feels, well, cheap. As I've mentioned previously in the thread, they had ample ways to get to the same place they are now (pick x, or die in x amount of time) that didn't require "inventing" something at the last minute (eg. the stuff Hellman mentions)
I think it's mentioned somewhere that there was no way back for Alt, but maybe that's just referring to Johnny unplugging her. Alt's entire "state of being" is left a bit of a mystery. Something I definitely would have wanted to ask her about on first meeting, kinda stung there that the only option was to ask her about the Voodoo Boys' fates, as if I cared by that point.
If you ask Alt for help as Johnny in the Rogue ending it's also heavily implied that Alt is no longer "a person", she's emotionally flatlined. I thought that was a pretty big gut-punch moment for Johnny and probably the biggest insight we get into who, or what, Alt is.
Maybe if V keeps existing as a separate entity, in sort of an Engram state, there's a way to bring them back. Something V suggests to Johnny when taking their body back, and which he rejects because he considers the only ones capable of giving him a new body to be Arasaka, and he definitely doesn't want their involvement.
Question is whether Alt would be willing to accept that route, seeing as how her entire reason for helping at all was to gobble up all the engrams in Mikoshi...
that could still have worked if you shifted things around. so, give the protagonist the biochip, so you get johnny, then execute runs to prove your innocence, then during the endgame for that plotline have the biochip get damaged, and then it starts killing you, you don't even need to add the johnny engram overwriting your psyche, or make that what trigger's the overwrite in the first place.
For me this kind of story is rather weak.
If you want to make a continuation of the story, why to make this story be about the same thing? Repeating yourself is always bad in storytelling and and you are repeating yourself with finding cure for some sort of terminal diseases, at first brain eating biochip and later brain melting DNA incompatibility.
Second why to make endings so decisive if you want to write a continuation? Wouldn't be easier if endings reward would be just where will be next V's apartment? NC outskirts with Nomads, one of top level apartments in Arasaka Tower, or one above Afterlife? Then just give some fixer/distress call and start the story of DLC, just like most of the DLC is doing this (TW3 included)?
Going with any continuation will require undoing most of those endings. There is little blaze of glory going after yet another "find the cure", same with happy times in bad lands if you are going back to the place that has little to do with "happy".
Next how to advertise this kind of DLC? After looking for a cure, buy our brand new DLC to find next cure.
And last but not least forcing people to pay additional 20$ for continuation of the story, since V's life still hangs by a thread (of the same kind) is a ethically questionable business practice.
And the main issue with the game is ethically questionable business practice, by over-promising and under-delivering, that some times even look like Sean Murrey "departures from the truth".
Some free DLC ok, sure - but it's just highly unlikely that this can be covered by some free DLC with 1-2 mission, that would require heave backstory for 3 completely different endings.
Retcon is another story, but again paying 20$ for something that should be in the MQ?
It's even better to just make a new DLC about completely different objectives and heal V off-screen or as a by-product of the first mission.
Last edited:
15:00 "There's an emotional core that just didn't come forward..."
Agree. If the message is "don't be a legend, but do things that others will remember you for before you die" (as this guy says), then there's just not enough 'drama' or 'impact' in what V was doing. I mean:
- Judy would probably leave NC anyway (and learn that Evelyn's dead on her own), she's a big girl who can make up her mind
- Panam would be broke and without the clan, but she's not in danger either. Could pull herself together. Still friends with Mitch and Scorpio (and they would both be alive)
- Kerry needs to talk through his shit with a shrink
- River could die -- here the impact is obvious
- Johnny (or is it "a Johnny"?) gets to redeem himself a bit - OK, that works.
- Hanako would probably be killed off by Yorinobu if V and Takemura never contacted her - debatable.
But you also have to care about Johnny, River or Hanako to be satisfied with changing their lives in some way.
upd. And re: the chip as a timer... I've been looking at the CP2077 inspirations now, and currently it seems to me like nothing more but a copied device from Neuromancer or Johnny Mnemonic
Cause death timers are very cyberpunk, I guess. /s
Last edited:
The alt gobble theory is more about other peoples perceptions rather than alt's perspective on her own motivations. She sees the net as a place of freedom for engrams, when V asks her.
I don't think alt would be ok with destroying another consciousness/soul to have a body, She also seems to have grown out of it, at the discussion in the end, she basically says it makes no sense for digital consciousnesses to tie themselves to physical bodies, Johnny responds thats part of being human.
She may have changed over time, but her main beef with mikoshi is guilt/revenge/engram rights.
The basic idea that the game is asking is, what is the purpose/nature of life. He gets this, but he doesn't understand why adding a looming threat to life, forces the player too look at this?
He also doesn't realize the game has a few plots/perspectives for answering this question. Its not one thing, its not all about Jackie's idea, or Judy's idea, or Johnny, takemura, etc.
He didnt really understand, the game is not best played by doing everything. It muddles the narratives, unless you have a strong ability to separate things. He complains about singing with Johnny, as if thats a required part of the story. Thats the part of the plot that comes if you value friendship with Johnny, and then help him repair his relationships, with rogue, Kerry, and V. Going on a date with rogue, getting the band back together, apologizing to V and sharing his true sadness all illustrate the friendship is most important part of life answer to the question.
Basically he wants a concise focused narrative, with one major idea, and the rest of the game built to support that idea. But thats not what this game is going for. This game presents multiple answers to the central question. The main questline highlights a few they decided to explore more fully. The player chooses.
purpose of life?
Jackie, represents the ambition to make a mark
Judy eventually represents the idea of making life better for people /ideals
Johnny represents the personal moments and shared experiences/bonds with friends
panam represents the good of the family, and keeping community strong as focus
takemura represents loyalty/success as the focus
this means the main plot isn't always reinforcing one narrative, but rather exploring multiple. When its not exploring one of the possible "purposes" it focuses on survival.
For some players, the will to survive outweighs the "why" of survival, so they ignore exploring side content, which is related to "purpose"
For other players, they did everything they could, and were confused, whats the right way to play? whats the purpose? Why are you making me do X?
Also, the narratives are clearly "to be continued" when you examine them. they probably should have said that in the endings, because other than if you do johnnies stuff the other purposes haven't reached their logical conclusions.
the best endings are the ones that come closest to reaching their goals, which are Johnny, and Nomad. But even nomad, you really haven't got to the point that the family's future is certain.
If you choose love is the most important only Panam and Judy are close, though I think, in that case you aren't fully there because neither panam nor Judy fully have evolved. Judy abandoned her idealism, and panam still hasn't fully understood whats good for the family/versus her impulsive desires.
Post automatically merged:
the story isn't really about just surviving, but in a multithreaded story where the player defines the purpose, you need a narrative throughline that intersects multiple reasons for existing.
the problem with the solutions you pose, is they create no tension, and no framework to build a narrative.
thats not necessarily bad, but cdprojeckt wanted this to be a narrative rpg, not just an open world adventure. They want to tell a story, in part with the player, but tell a story none the less.
so the throughline is, V wants to survive, so they must do XYZ then, they weave in reasons, purposes, the why V wants to survive that a player might choose.
They do end up having to sacrifice by spreading such a wide net though. They can't develop any one idea as completely, the advantage is, as I can see reading this forum, that a lot of different players chose a different idea as to what was important, and many of the complaints are that certain parts of the story/gameplay couldn't highlight it more.
Also, for the player who only cares about survival, its less fullfiling because the game is undone. But as I said in another post, its undone for everyone. Thats probably overall why the endings aren't fulfilling everyone, because its just the first part.
I think regardless, they can't keep this going too long, at least with V. The countdown to death gets weaker the more you use it, and leaving most of the other threads hanging also gets old.
Last edited:
How much time does V get to run around with the chip, a couple of weeks? That's not a great amount of time to start thinking about what their purpose is. Also, they'd better be focusing on getting that chip out, cause no life = no purpose.
But does the player get to voice their V's purpose clearly in the game (as opposed to roleplaying in their head)?
- V wants ambition -- you don't know that this ending hides behind "give way to Johnny" ending (makes much more sense with Arasaka solo)
- V wants friends/family/love -- presented as the Nomads' ending; Judy decides to leave with nomads specifically. But if your friends/family/love are River and Kerry, you'll regret clicking on this one.
- Arasaka's ending -- you could imagine that V wanted to work/continue working for Arasaka. But the MQ doesn't get to explore that too much (just once you can tell Hanako if you're a corpo that you would love your job back). So, this one is more of an ending for the sake of an ending.
I wouldn´t put it that way. I don´t think she "abandoned" her idealism, instead I believe that she has just realised that it didn´t work with the NC environment. I believe that wherever Judy & V might go, she will take that idealism with her.
The only ending I have a problem with are the ones in which you allow Johnny to keep your body. It seems like an a-hole thing to do not telling anyone what happened to V. Johnny seems like he just didn't want anything to do with your friends after the raid and everybody thinks V is just laying low or doesn't want anything to do with them. Giving them some closure would have been a kind thing to do and then he could go do his own thing with his new lease on life.
Maybe Johnny really never changed and was always playing that angle, to get your body and keep it for himself.
Maybe Johnny really never changed and was always playing that angle, to get your body and keep it for himself.
Given how he even says he wished he could have gotten closure when you call your LI before the endgame, and how V helps him deal with his loose ends that indeed was a very rude thing to do imho.
Generally I'd blame the post ending slides for just being pretty bad, and often going against what actually happened in the ending mission, but in the case of Johnny there's messages from a bunch of people asking you what the hell is up in game before you get to the credits (though it takes some effort to get to the messages, as the phone is disabled, so you can't even try to call anyone while you play Johnny)
Meaning that he both still has V's phone number, and is actively ignoring the people V cared about. At the graves he says he wasn't going to waste this new chance (or something to that effect), but he sure was not off to a good start...
You should try playing the Devil return home ending with Judy, to see what short changed looks like.
I could understand Johnny not lettting know anyone about what happened. Its not easy to show up in Judys doors saying "Hi, no, its not V, its Johnny in V`s body in front of you. V is dead". I think he was afraid to have this kind of discussion and wanted to protect V`s friends even than probably some of them would likely wanted to know what is true. You might not agree with what he has done, but its a choice that can be explained.
In this ending I only have a problem why Rogue is dead and Johnny says he is sorry if you picked Panam route? Is it a bug?
In this ending I only have a problem why Rogue is dead and Johnny says he is sorry if you picked Panam route? Is it a bug?
Patrick Miles said that he like vague endings and overall ambiguity
‘Cyberpunk 2077’ Quest Designer Says He Likes To ‘Frustrate Players With Ambiguity’
Confused about the ending of a bunch of Cyberpunk 2077 quests? There's a reason for that.
www.forbes.com
This could be considered a rushed writing but than there is a ton of short fetch quests that could be easily cut to make a room for more definitive story lines, so again this is pointing towards the ambiguity.
Although I wholeheartedly agree that this is getting old really fast and for me this is already played out.
Second time and people will get fed up with this kind of writing because this is more like you just run out of idea and try to cover this up with edgy ambiguity.
I hope that they will just make a proper continuation of V story without this kind of "extravagant" (on the point of pretentious) tropes.